BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[clevin]

If you don't say that then great, you're not who this thread is referring to.

Uh... go look up 'tautology'.

[Recovery]

I'm not sure I can call classic raiding hard, but high end classic raiding is not much less demanding from the player than high end retail raiding, we prepare for many hours before we enter raids, everything is meticulously planned, down to individual mob packs.

Generally, I treat classic raiding as one big marathon encounter, while retail is a set of shorter & smaller encounters, you can put infinitely more attempts into a retail boss than you can on a classic boss, just as an example, wiping on c'thun the first time is gonna maybe take 5 minutes to recover, wiping a second, third time is gonna extend that to 15-30 minutes to recover.

Casual guilds are going to wipe A LOT in bwl, aq and probably kill the guilds in the process, if they're only raiding 3 hour/nights, wiping 2-3 times before c'thun is simply gonna make it unkillable in that one night. And it's not like, they're gonna be necessarily able to clear their other raid nights, when aq is out, theyre gonna wanna clear bwl, mc, zg every week ontop of entering into AQ.

What i'm saying is, there is very little room for error, in time management for classic raiding.

THIS. 100% THIS. For some reason, people have this incredibly wrong perception that players call classic hard simply because of raid mechanics.. This just couldnt be farther from the truth. Vanilla wow raid mechanics were mostly EASY. It's all of the other shit that makes it hard..

1. Ensuring 40 people know their role, how to manage aggro, and bring enough consumables to sustain.
2. Simple getting back for another pull after a wipe. (alot of runs are insanely far to get back to the raid instance, then you have to rebuff, reorganize, correct mistakes, rez stragglers (no mass rez), etc.
3. Although people will be attempting to clear (insert new raid released), they will also be clearing the last tier as well, because you dont just get afforded a new set of epics within a week of each patch in classic. People will be farming tier sets, legendaries, hit rating, resistance gear, etc.
4. Something as simple as the safety dance caused my LFG to wipe MULTIPLE times during the 15th anniversary.. You think people arent gonna fail this on classic?

Yes, the average players is a lot better and hardcore players are great, but people act as if classic players are gods that are just gonna breeze right through everything as a whole.. This simply wont happen.
The top 5 guilds are so will clear early, everyone else will lag behind likely for multiple weeks.

You also cant use the release of classic and MC as a baseline. It was downed so quickly because of the flux of players at the beginning of the drop and due to the fact that a large portion of the first down was people from private servers that have been repeating this content for 15 years. lmao.

people will do anything to argue and try to prove a point for self validation.

[therealstegblob]

And yet i am watching streams every week of seasoned retail raiders wiping continuosly on Garr and Geddon and Shazzrah.

Yes, the top guilds that have been raiding this same content for over a decade will steamroll any and all content in Classic, that does not mean it's extremely easy. Simple yes, easy no.

You're not watching streams every week of seasoned "retail raiders" (the fuck does that even mean lol) wiping continuously on Garr or Geddon. You might see them wipe a few times, or have come unprepared for certain very niche requirements that don't come up on quick Google searches of strategy guides, but it's not because the fights are not easy.

The fights are easy, with none of the MC bosses having anymore than three or four mechanics at most. Most of them don't even have phases. However, you do need to hit certain numerical values and often times mechanics have a deeper level of demand to them than brief WoWhead comment recaps written in 2007 to serve as a guide for level 70 players will divulge.

But to suggest that 'retail raiders' are wiping nonstop and hitting some kind of big bad MC wall that smacks the confidence and cockyness out of them, as opposed to them just having a little bit of trouble going into a 'new' raid almost completely blind and hitting a small learning curve, is fucking ridiculous.

[Naraga]

Yes, but you won't be the one downing them.

[arkanon]

I love these threads. It starts off with level headed classic players saying "well yeah, NO ONE EVER said it was hard" and then by the middle of page two there are a bunch of idiots genuinely trying to claim it in fact IS hard. Twisted mental gymnastics, logical fallacies, and outright lies and dishonesty.

Never change classic fanbois, never change!

[Dark Succ]

- Within, of course, the time allowed via gating/grinding. The actual bosses will go down like flies in a window on a summers day.

This isn't criticism of the game, but a wake-up call to those who think Classic was just "hard" and that no amount of player experience will change that: you are completely wrong. This content will be a cake-walk for any reasonably experienced guild. People put MC being cleared so fast down to 1.12: trust me, it would have been cleared in the same time even in an earlier patch.

And when this starts, I'm expecting to see the usual conspiracy theories about "stealth nerfs" and whatnot. Just accept you're not going to be waiting for months on end to see bosses fall. Concentrate on your progress and enjoyment of the game, ultimately

[Not Againnn]

its like saying

MATH PROBLEMS ARE EASY FOR MATHEMATICIANS

no shit.

but some math problems are hard for people who dont know what they are doing. the same applies. yes, many hardcore guilds will kill it and kill it fast; thats what they signed up for... that being said, MANY MANY more wont and never be able to because they simply dont know wtf is going on gear wise.

[MoanaLisa]

There haven't been all that many people lately saying that Classic would be hard so I don't know why we needed to be reminded.

There are varying levels of skill among all the players. It's more difficult for some than others certainly. But none of the raids are likely to last more than a week without someone finishing them. That's not a surprise.

Sounds more to me like a "Ha ha, you were wrong" thread.

[arkanon]

There haven't been all that many people lately saying that Classic would be hard so I don't know why we needed to be reminded.

There are varying levels of skill among all the players. It's more difficult for some than others certainly. But none of the raids are likely to last more than a week without someone finishing them. That's not a surprise.

Sounds more to me like a "Ha ha, you were wrong" thread.

There are multiple people in this thread saying it is hard. There are others desperately trying to twist what difficult means. To pretend it isn't still happening is pretty stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

There haven't been all that many people lately saying that Classic would be hard so I don't know why we needed to be reminded.

There are varying levels of skill among all the players. It's more difficult for some than others certainly. But none of the raids are likely to last more than a week without someone finishing them. That's not a surprise.

Sounds more to me like a "Ha ha, you were wrong" thread.

There are multiple people in this thread saying it is hard. There are others desperately trying to twist what difficult means. To pretend it isn't still happening is pretty stupid.

[Qstall]

40 ppl thaddius, have fun

[ryjkur]

People are better at this game:

there are many 2k+ dps logs with MC gear already, same amout what top players did with full t6 in Brutallus.

Skill has improved that many levels

[Bramickias]

The real challenge will be to have a geared and reliable 40man group ready to enter Naxx when it comes.
Dealing with 40man raids where the bosses drop 2-3 pieces of gear, half of those are trash to begin with, and having your guild survive throught 3 raids over months is the real challenge. Keeping a healthy and geared raid roster throught all of Classic is where the real challenge is. All it takes is for a guild in AQ40 to lose their main tank or 2-3 healers and youre almost set back a month in progression, if you arent lucky with drops or recruitement.
I'm already seeing drama over Ragnaros loot, i'm not excited for the discussion that will come from Nefarion loot.

Killing bosses isnt where the challenge lies with Classic, guild management is where the real difficulty is and has always been.

[Misuteri]

I feel sorry for people like kungen who have basicly been living and making a living in his case on the reputation of having cleared this "hard" content first.

I can't imagine how it must feel to have been in a "hardcore" guild back then, raiding nearly every night then spending years after bragging about how leet you used to be and how hard that was only for Classic to come along and basicly just trivialise all thows hundreds of hours of grinding by basicly just showing it was the players lack of knowledge that made it hard not the content.

It actualy makes me glad I only got up to bwl/aq20 first time round. Its bad enough thinking back to some conversations I had over the last decade where I'd big up my vanilla and tbc raiding record and talk about how hard it was, deep down I did have my doubts that it was actualy as hard as I made it out to be, but having classic come along and show so clearly how much of complete melt me and the rest of my raid team was back then has been a bitter pill haha.

Ahh well at least it's a small comfort that others wasted far more time than I did back then

- - - Updated - - -



Acording to warcraft logs as of now.
8,560 guilds ha e 10/10 mc

338 guilds are 9/10

93 guilds are 8/10

33 guilds are 7/10

Though that's obvs only the guilds who bother to log raids so there's no über casual guilds. But it does still show of those who bother to raid mc the vast majority have likely cleared it.

That’s actually hysterical to point out that 7 night a week raiders during vanilla were just bads by today’s standards. I remember reading about gamers raiding 5+ hours a night 5+ days a week before TBC and now I see these streams and think.... wow, they must have been just.... awful. 45 min alt speed runs for MC and BWL are going to be so common this summer.

Gearing 4 tanks for Horsemen will no longer be an issue.

[[Apok]]

That’s actually hysterical to point out that 7 night a week raiders during vanilla were just bads by today’s standards. I remember reading about gamers raiding 5+ hours a night 5+ days a week before TBC and now I see these streams and think.... wow, they must have been just.... awful. 45 min alt speed runs for MC and BWL are going to be so common this summer.

Gearing 4 tanks for Horsemen will no longer be an issue.

You're also playing a far easier of classic than when most of these raids were first cleared.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

People are still baiting this same old subject and the same old bait threads keep getting though the net?

What a surprise.

[Kralljin]

People are better at this game:

there are many 2k+ dps logs with MC gear already, same amout what top players did with full t6 in Brutallus.

Skill has improved that many levels

Inflated numbers because of World buffs and extremely short fights with CD's cause this.

A Melee dps with all worldbuffs has like
+140AP (Dragonslayer)
+200AP (DM: North Buff)
+5% Crit (Dragonslayer)
+5% Crit (Songflower Serenade)
+15 All Attributes (Songflower Serenade)
+15% Haste (Warchief's Blessing; Horde only)

If you now throw in the fact that the seperation between Guardian and Battle Elixir doesn't exist in Classic, meaning there is a whole bunch of consumables that stack.

Like, All Worldbuffs + all possible Consumables probably doubles your Dps, if not even more.

[Frozenbro]

This is bait

Not a bait when its the absolute truth.

- - - Updated - - -

Many guilds wiped a lot in MC. I'm sure that Naxx will be a worthy challenge for casual players. For nolifers? Not so much, but who cares?

But you care enough to complain about mythic difficulty, so which one is it, you care or you dont?

[[Apok]]

Not a bait when its the absolute truth.

How are you able to measure the absolute truth?

[xGLxAnubis]

People REALLY underestimate the power of the updated talent trees, Debuffs to 16 from 8, AND Debuff Priority (Because originally you could push ANY debuff off the target).

So take warriors for example, where Fury was worthless (No Bloodthirst) and Arms couldn't take Impale (Because Deep Wounds would remove good debuffs), and Mortal Strike would eat up a debuff slot anyhow. Tanks also didn't have Shield Slam and Imp Sunder Armor didn't reduce the cost, so threat was REALLY bad.

https://classicwowtalents.appspot.co...lent=1124125_1

Take a look at how bad some of the trees were. And keep in mind you're limited to 8 debuff slots and every debuff you apply removes a debuff from the boss.

And I'm pretty sure there was a gear itemization fix that went into effect before 1.12 as well, so power level spiked from that too.

VANILLA was hard. Classic isn't. NO ONE Thought Classic was going to be hard.

[Monster Hunter]

That’s actually hysterical to point out that 7 night a week raiders during vanilla were just bads by today’s standards. I remember reading about gamers raiding 5+ hours a night 5+ days a week before TBC and now I see these streams and think.... wow, they must have been just.... awful. 45 min alt speed runs for MC and BWL are going to be so common this summer.

Gearing 4 tanks for Horsemen will no longer be an issue.

Oh god yea. Its embarrassing to think back to some the late night talks we had about how to kill certain bosses, it's the fact we took it so seriously back then that makes me face palm aty past self after seeing how easy those bosses roll over.

The excuses of its 1.12. Or we didn't hae the info I don't buy into, 1.12 didn't make it so bosses were 90% easier we were stuck in aq 20 right up to tbc launch and with so many of us trying to pull those fights apart there's no excuses for missing basic shit we missed.

Nah the real reason was we were all mostly 15,16,17 and fucking dumb as rocks but thought we were smart, That's all I've chalked it up to. Like how I thought highschool math was hard till I went college.

- - - Updated - - -

People REALLY underestimate the power of the updated talent trees, Debuffs to 16 from 8, AND Debuff Priority (Because originally you could push ANY debuff off the target).

So take warriors for example, where Fury was worthless (No Bloodthirst) and Arms couldn't take Impale (Because Deep Wounds would remove good debuffs), and Mortal Strike would eat up a debuff slot anyhow. Tanks also didn't have Shield Slam and Imp Sunder Armor didn't reduce the cost, so threat was REALLY bad.

https://classicwowtalents.appspot.co...lent=1124125_1

Take a look at how bad some of the trees were. And keep in mind you're limited to 8 debuff slots and every debuff you apply removes a debuff from the boss.

And I'm pretty sure there was a gear itemization fix that went into effect before 1.12 as well, so power level spiked from that too.

VANILLA was hard. Classic isn't. NO ONE Thought Classic was going to be hard.

That argument dosnt work when even after all those changes most people were still stuck in bwl and AQ.

If it was the changes then alot more raiding guilds would have cleared nax than they did back then.

Occums razor apply here, the reason was simple, we were mostly kids, most of the raid teams were in there teens, look at most of the "top" guilds at the time and u see they had older than averedge raiders.