Poll: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  1. #5581
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    The huge different between Rey and the others you listed, as it's very important for someone being a Mary Sue, is if the world seems to bend around them and validate them.

    You mentioned Superman, which would be the most likely candidate to being a Mary Sue... but being super powerful alone isn't what makes a Mary Sue, and I'll circle around to this at the end, as Luke demonstrates the other half the issue.

    When you refer to someone like Luke, his background is heavily focused upon based upon dialogue and interaction with his aunt/uncle and R2D2/C3PO. You find out very quickly who he is, what his personality is like, what skills, what his motivations are, and eventually why would he even want to leave his current lot in life. Considering he's established a necessary worker for a moisture farmer on a hostile planet, you easily infer that he has at least some basic level of self-defense and survival skills taught to him by his veteran uncle, as well as he's likely handy with some tech and droids further amplified by his interaction with the droids. You find out multiple times during this introduction that his one defining skill is that he's a pretty good pilot, his motivation is to train at the Academy to become an official pilot, and he's already wanting to leave but feels stuck on the moisture farm... and he's kind of a whiny little kid, too. There's a bit of foreshadowing about his father, but at the time the inference at least indicates that the traits he demonstrates are inherited or impressioned on him by his father who is not in the picture anymore. Later in the film, he gains a mentor that introduces him to the Force, and while he demonstrates he can use the Force his aptitude is fairly low. As his adventure continues throughout the first movie, he spends most of the time as a burden to those around him as Kenobi/Solo/Leia are much more in charge of the situation... and only at the end of the film does Luke finally have a shining moment where he finally contributes something to the cause, demonstrating his growth. As a slight yet important aside, Luke never directly confronts the big bad, aka Vader, and Vader not only sets a goal for him to rise to but also is inferred to be something that is currently unattainable for Luke.

    Now... all that I stated about Luke and shown in the first movie? Almost none of it is conveyed about Rey. For the entire introduction, all we establish with certainty is that Rey is a loner, she salvages stuff, and she's waiting for her parents. Where is the source of her of her skills and what are her motivations? It's never established or inferred, so the audience has to assume things. Without making this post too long, Rey demonstrates skills at way too high of a proficiency from what were ever told, and she's just awesome from the get go. Her motivations are all muddled, because not only do we not establish her motivations but we never stick to any motivation either. Continually through the movie, people with knowledge and skills are suddenly dumber around her and her insight shines (such as her figuring out the Falcon's issues and resolutions more than the man who actually ran/operated the ship decades before her). Similar with her powers, which Kylo (despite his training under Luke and Snoke) just gets outmatched at every turn and loses every time to her, and Rey suffers no backlash or side effects from using power that she shouldn't have nor exceed her expected capacity... Snoke even berates Kylo in TLJ that he got beat by someone who had never picked up a lightsaber before.

    Could all of these attributes been explained within the context of the film? Absolutely, but the movie leaves so many gaps in logic and explanations, all while making the world revolve around Rey. Some have mentioned various things the movie could've done that would fix almost all the issues. One of my favorite is that instead of Rey waiting for her parents, have Rey waiting for a lone Jedi, who found Rey as a child and took her under her wing, made her a Padawan, and for various reasons she had to leave Rey alone to go on some mission and hasn't returned yet. It'd explain to some satisfactory level where Rey learned to use the Force to such a satisfactory level, basic survival skills, as well as her combat skills with a staff and a lightsaber (which are two completely different skills if you've ever trained those weapons, the skills don't translate well). If this was the introduction of Rey instead of what we go, we suddenly know way more about her and have information that confirms her motivations, skills, etc.

    This all leads to the overarching reason why ultimately Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke/Superman/etc. are not: the overall script writing of the new trilogy is piss-poor. That's it. If they wrote her with more of a standard hero's journey arc in this new trilogy (like Luke had throughout the OT) versus a flat "always better than everyone around her" with almost no room for growth, we'd be having a completely different discussion. Doesn't excuse all the events beyond character establishment and motivation that always seem to work out and have Rey win, but it still points to bad writing being the main cause of Rey being a Mary Sue. Honestly, what frustrates me the most about this new trilogy is that all of this could've been fixed if they tried... but RoS basically doubles down on what makes the writing bad and just makes it irredeemable in that respect. RoS even uses the most common tropes found in fanfics: the protagonist is related to some famous/important person in the story, and the protagonist makes a noble sacrifice at the end to save everyone.
    Great writeup, my only point of contention is that it really is a matter of degrees for some characters. Luke's potential status as a Mary Sue was debated long before Rey existed because frankly the justifications for his capabilities are paper thin. Rey's are thinner because modern blockbusters spend less time in characterization; writers (read: Disney) are more concerned with getting to the action because that is what the general audience demands. To me the margin of difference between them is pretty small as well, certainly not worth defending one character over the other, and that difference comes from how the market has changed more than anything. Especially in the context of a late 70s film the writing and characterization in Star Wars were dogshit.

  2. #5582
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    We seen one person do a mind trick in the movies, Obi-wan. That's it. Luke failed, but that is because Jabba being a Hutt is not affected by it. Ahsoka and Ezra attempt in their respective series, iirc. We don't see mind tricks often, we don't actually know how complex they are. However, we do have Obi-wan's description "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded." ... it seems to imply the power is not of the Jedi, but rather something in the Force itself. A Force User can influence someone weak-minded (I prefer the concept of weak willed more, because it makes a bit more sense).
    Luke used the mind trick on Bib Fortuna, the guy that brought him to Jabba. The mind trick does fail a lot, but the reason this is built into the ability is because it would make it too easy for Jedi to get whatever they want. Anyway, since only trained Jedi use it and it doesn't work very often, most people believe it is a higher level skill that requires training. And the Jedi have always had the ability to use the force, which is an external source of power, but it required a lot of training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Also, don't ignore that prior to Rey doing the mind trick, Kylo was attempting to force himself into her mind. She saw first hand what the Force can do. Also, I don't feel she "defeated" Kylo personally, she got one lucky hit at the end and the novelization suggests that Kylo was going to get up after it. And she wasn't the first character in Star Wars Canon to get a lucky hit with a lightsaber, not even the first one in that movie either.
    Reading someone's mind and controlling it are two different things. Being able to do one doesn't mean you can do the other or lead to thinking you can do the other. If that was the reason she decided to discover the mind trick, it should be explained in the movie and it isn't. You can just tell or show someone the force exists and expect them to be able to do everything the force makes possible without training. As far as the light saber fight, it shouldn't have even been close, lucky hit or not. They made Rey too powerful too quickly without any explanation and there is no good way to explain it. Even "she was to grand-daughter of the emperor" doesn't mean anything besides potential to use the force. Luke was Darth Vader's son and he didn't discover sophisticated force abilities out of nowhere.

  3. #5583
    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    If that was a clone, why is Palpatine all scarred and burned like we're supposed to believe that he survived the explosion?

    And can he actually ever die since they've chosen to die on the hill of cloning and dark force powers to cheat death?
    From what I understand, the Palpatine in episode 9 is thousands of years old and is held together by machinery. He just happens to look like that because of how old he is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    They aren't at 4 billion in profits yet, which is the cut-even point for the sale, though that sale was 7 years ago, so even that's not "even" as you have to consider 7 years of lost time without profit. Then you look at movies like Solo that lost money straight up, and that's what sent Disney in a panic. Their hope in recovering their billions is in making blockbusters, like they did with Marvel, and if their "Star Wars Stories" start losing money before they even drawn even, that's a big loss for the company.

    The point I was making is that Disney has a vested interest in making movies that the Star Wars fans like and will pay to see. To anyone that thinks the Disney execs are in their smoke filled, dimly lit board room thinking about ways to anger fans and drive them away. That's not happening.
    Disney is going to make several TV shows and make the money back by getting Star Wars fans to sub to Disney+. Just the Obi-Wan TV series alone will rake in billions.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  4. #5584
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Great writeup, my only point of contention is that it really is a matter of degrees for some characters. Luke's potential status as a Mary Sue was debated long before Rey existed because frankly the justifications for his capabilities are paper thin. Rey's are thinner because modern blockbusters spend less time in characterization; writers (read: Disney) are more concerned with getting to the action because that is what the general audience demands. To me the margin of difference between them is pretty small as well, certainly not worth defending one character over the other, and that difference comes from how the market has changed more than anything. Especially in the context of a late 70s film the writing and characterization in Star Wars were dogshit.
    But Luke doesn't show any special characteristics for nearly the entire original trilogy.

    Ep 4: Ben's the best Jedi; Leia is in charge (talking about the core group); Han's the coolest guy; Wedge is the best pilot. Luke misses his first shot at the Death Star, due to that he loses his best friend (Biggs); Ben has to come back to help Luke hit his 2nd attempt. Luke is literally not better at any one thing than someone else in the movie, and he's very whiny on top of that. The story is about him, but he's still a side kick to Ben, Han, and Leia.

    Ep 5: Yoda's the best Jedi; Han and Wedge are better pilots; Han's coolness factor over Luke only increases from Ep 4; Leia is still the boss; Luke becomes even whinier and fails to learn multiple crucial lessons from Yoda about being a Jedi to the point that Yoda is ready to give up on him. Yoda's looking to train Leia (IMO) as he clearly doesn't want to train Luke and only Ben's begging causes Yoda to concede and train Luke. Vader then toys with Luke until Luke nicks his shoulder, at which point Vader stops playing and chops Luke's hand off.

    Ep 6: Luke's making plans to rescue Han. Plan A; Leia coming in to sneak Han away fails. Plan B; Luke coming in to mind control Jabba fails. Plan C; almost fails, but only works because Han got lucky and hit Fett's rocket pack. Otherwise, Fett kills them all. Then Vader once again toys with Luke, until they can manage to get Luke into a mindless rage, then the Emperor toys with Luke's until his daddy saves him.

    Ep 7: Luke's almost kills his nephew because he thinks he saw that Ben might be tempted to the Dark Side. Abandons his friends and family to hide and become a hermit.

    Ep 8: Luke is now a disillusioned, grumpy old hermit who gives up on his friends and gets his butt kicked by someone who's never received any formal fight or force training.

    I don't think I'm missing much here. I'm not sure how any of that equates to Mary Sue, or who in their right mind would debate those being qualities of a Mary Sue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Disney is going to make several TV shows and make the money back by getting Star Wars fans to sub to Disney+. Just the Obi-Wan TV series alone will rake in billions.
    The point I'm making is that Disney is looking to make money first and foremost. The straight up lost money with Solo. Igor had to step in to try to course correct the Lucasfilm ship because they can't keep trying to make "A Star Wars Story" blockbusters that lose money.

    I don't think Disney is doing anything intentionally to piss off fans, which is the original point I was countering when I said they are trying to make their money back. So that's all I'm saying. Disney/Igor has hired a bunch of incompetent people, likely at multiple levels, and they screwing with Star Wars and screwing up Star Wars because they are bad at what they do. I'm arguing that the failures of Disney's Lucasfilm are failures of incompetence, more so than malice. That's all I'm saying.
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2020-01-03 at 10:05 AM.

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  5. #5585
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Luke used the mind trick on Bib Fortuna, the guy that brought him to Jabba. The mind trick does fail a lot, but the reason this is built into the ability is because it would make it too easy for Jedi to get whatever they want. Anyway, since only trained Jedi use it and it doesn't work very often, most people believe it is a higher level skill that requires training. And the Jedi have always had the ability to use the force, which is an external source of power, but it required a lot of training.



    Reading someone's mind and controlling it are two different things. Being able to do one doesn't mean you can do the other or lead to thinking you can do the other. If that was the reason she decided to discover the mind trick, it should be explained in the movie and it isn't. You can just tell or show someone the force exists and expect them to be able to do everything the force makes possible without training. As far as the light saber fight, it shouldn't have even been close, lucky hit or not. They made Rey too powerful too quickly without any explanation and there is no good way to explain it. Even "she was to grand-daughter of the emperor" doesn't mean anything besides potential to use the force. Luke was Darth Vader's son and he didn't discover sophisticated force abilities out of nowhere.
    Most people believe is not evidence. Most people can be wrong. Also, Luke didn't have that much training besides self training. So that alone seems to suggest it is not that advanced of a technique. Luke at most had months of training with Yoda, and all we saw was physical training and meditation.

    Also, again, it is called Mind Trick ... not mind control. You are influencing their actions, not really controlling them. This is supported by Obi-wan's line in ANH. He doesn't say that the Force controls weak minded people. And Kylo's technique is a little more than just simply mind reading, you are invading the person's memories.

    It wasn't close, she was losing until that hit. Kylo was driving her back. Kylo had no intent to kill. Kylo was severally injured having taking a bowcaster hit and was hit by the lightsaber from Finn. Again, it was a lucky hit ... that's it. Rey was fighting for her life, Kylo wanted to turn her. The Novelization suggests Kylo was going to stand up if the chasm hadn't opened up. You don't get to ignore facts to claim "Rey is too powerful!"

    Look at Maul vs Qui-Gon and Obi-wan. Qui-Gon was a fully trained Jedi Master on the level of Council Member (if we take Obi-wan's line as facially valid). Obi-wan was trained to fight against blasters, not sabers (after all it was 1000 years since the Sith, you weren't going to find many non-Jedi trained). Maul was trained to hunt and kill Jedi, his technique was specifically designed to overpower Jedi. Maul defeats Qui-Gon with relative ease, knocks Obi-wan into a pit, etc ... the reason Obi-wan wins is because he has to to survive until the OT, but everything shows Maul should have won the fight.

    Using the same logic as "Rey is too powerful because she beat Kylo", I can say "Obi-wan's too powerful as a Jedi Padawan, he fights better than a Jedi Master!" Would anyone take that argument seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    But Luke doesn't show any special characteristics for nearly the entire original trilogy.
    It the OT, Luke is the "Child of Destiny" ... which is literally a special quality. He is literally "A New Hope". Mary Sue's are not required to be the best anything. Mary Sue's require actions that would be unreasonable in the lore of the respective universe.

    For example, if a Jedi had a power that their skin can deflect lightsaber blades ... but they are also still human. Would be a trait of a Mary Sue, even if they aren't the best at any thing else. It is unreasonable to have such a power. If they trained faster than anyone else, say became a Master at age 10 ... that would be a Mary Sue because we don't see any other fully trained Jedi so young, while training can be fast (a few years), that tends to only get someone to Knighthood, not Master.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  6. #5586

    hilarious........
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  7. #5587
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    That's opinion but the TPM and AotC are ass as SW and regular movies
    They're consistent...have a coherent plot...follow lore...don't defecate all over the movies before them...treat more than one character like they actually mean something...don't completely destroy great characters....don't subvert expectations.

    The Disney Trilogy doesn't have any of that...they're just 3 cluster fucks that go their own ways, make no sense, and made the other two trilogies pointless.

  8. #5588
    For all their flaws, the prequels actually do the best job at telling one story in three parts. The OT I think is all around better than the prequels, but the prequels lack the tug of war between JJ and RJ that plagues the sequel trilogy and lack the 'make it up as we go along' feeling of the OT. (Vader being Luke's father was handled very well in Empire but it's clear this wasn't planned from the start, and you ahve Leia's origins making a couple prior scenes awkward in retrospect that was used to plug up a plot hook from Empire they weren't going their original route with anymore.)

    The flaw of the sequels is lack of a coherent vision through the whole thing.

  9. #5589
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Sorry, I am not bothering to read beyond this. She is not a Mary Sue ... if you don't understand the term, don't use it. I will not have this dumb argument where all you are going to do is just call her a Mary Sue, ignore any explanation and repeat yourself thinking you are making an argument.

    If you want to see how I already deal with the rest of your "original" points ... I have addressed them in this topic already as has several other people.
    You obviously don't know what a Mary Sure is

    "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Typically, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment."

    Rey is idealized and virtually perfect...she doesn't need any training to do things flawlessly...she is apparently the chosen one, throwing away Lucas' established lore of Anakin being such...that's right, she is so fucking Mary Sue Disney defies canon to make her the Chosen One.

    She is wish fulfillment for Kathleen Kennedy...because you know what Star Wars is? Her own fan fiction! You know what Kathleen Kennedy is? A white brunette woman? You know what every Star Wars leading woman has been? A pretty little white brunette Brit...and who has ties to the British to the point she was awarded a honorary title? KK!



    So yes, stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LALALALALALALA" all you want, Rey is still the personification of a Mary Sue!

  10. #5590
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SszgJoKWg0c
    hilarious........
    Not sure if this is real. Kinda weird to only hear women shouting. Well maybe disney really managed to get get that female audience (before alienating them again with IX)..
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  11. #5591
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Seems pretty clear cut to me... If a female being called a "mary sue" isn't sexist than what is the male equivalent? Why is it never used as an insult toward male characters? It doesn't even fit with Rey, because a Mary Sue has no flaws when it is clear Rey as a protagonist has flaws. I have yet to hear anyone call Super-Man a Mary Sue. Just saying.

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    Amazing how you try and spin that as a bad thing, when it's clear the franchise has been extremely successful. From their Animated shows, Disney+, and Films all making money hand over fist.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/30/six-...nvestment.html
    Gary Stu it was used towards Anakin consistently but he isn't half as bad as Rey. In non star wars media Superman is a big one who is actively debated.

  12. #5592
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post

    I don't think I'm missing much here. I'm not sure how any of that equates to Mary Sue, or who in their right mind would debate those being qualities of a Mary Sue.
    If we use your absurdly disingenuous list, then no one would debate whether he is a Mary Sue or not. We could cherry pick all day for both characters and have already for pages of this thread.

    Wedge is the best pilot... that's hilarious. You get that from what in the film exactly? That time he got shot and had to go home? I loved the X-Wing books but we're not talking about the EU here. That point even undermines your own argument, if he was the best, why exactly did command have Luke, the least experienced pilot on the battlefield, leading their little formation? Oh because he used to shoot varmints from his crop duster, okay.

  13. #5593
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    Good analysis.

    Organa would have made so much more sense I must agree.

  14. #5594
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    It's not about liking their personalities or not. It's that the personalities dont make sense.
    Luke wouldn't throw a lightsaber above his head as if it was a piece of garbage, Luke would inquire about Han Solo upon learning of his death, Luke wouldn't pre-emptively strike his nephew because he felt some bad voodoo around him.
    Maybe the Luke at the end of ROTJ wouldn't do those things.

    But 30 years passed between the two films. 30 years we didn't see, and that you have literally no grounds upon which to assess who Luke would have become. And as for Luke failing and hiding away... that was established as something that had happened in Episode 7.

    Also, he did inquire about Han Solo's death. He literally asks "Where's Han?" Maybe it would have been nice for them to show that interaction. (See, NOW we've made an actual observation about the plot as it pertains to character. See how that works?) But he DID do it.

    Funny you'd mention Jar Jar because TLJ highlight why character like him are necessary : They allow the writer to condense the visual gag on one, or few characters and free the other characters of such constraints.
    Are you really going to try and defend Jar Jar?

    Let's address Jar Jar Binks and why he's bad.

    Jar Jar has no dignity. The audience does not care about him. None of his comedy is integral to the plot and, because the movie is not a comedy, is distracting. He has no characterization beyond being a clumsy oaf. Every time it cuts away to him capering and cavorting, it's unrelated nonsense of an ultimately pointless character. To paraphrase Krusty the Clown; "the pie-in-the-face gag's only funny if the sap's got dignity!"

    C3PO is funny because he has dignity but often comes off as clueless. R2D2 is funny because he's cute. Han is funny because he's a smooth-talker. Chewbacca is funny because he's a giant walking carpet that's super powerful and speaks gibberish. Etc, etc. But we LIKE all of those characters. They do important things. Sometimes they're doing them while they're being funny. When they do Funny things, it adds levity to the movies. And no, Star Wars has never been a "serious" franchise. It's a film series about space wizards FFS.

    Jar Jar does not contribute to the films at all. He has no dignity or ulterior role. He's nothing but a personified distraction. And seeing as the prequels were way more dour than the original three or the sequels, he stands out even more.

    In TLJ, every single character is a Jar jar, constantly used as props to make epic funny moment, starting with luke and his lightsaber throw of course, then it's Rey, the porgs, Poe dameron and it never end.
    And now you're complaining about Comical asides in Star Wars films? Movies that have stormtroopers bonking their heads on low beams, "I'm fine, how are you"s, "laserbrain" being used as an insult, and Ewoks hitting themselves in the faces with bolas? And those are all from the original trilogy.

    TLJ is also the least competently plotted movie of the entire mainline franchise,
    Uh huh and what was the plot of the phantom menace? Or attack of the clones? You going to extol the virtues of those to me? Those movies are made entirely of side quests all leading to a conclusion we already know whilst simultaneously being under and over written.

    and yes, romcom drama and making up space physics every minutes to fit a plot does weight on the story over time, and it weight on the quality of the movie as a whole, even if it somehow doesnt weight on you.
    See, here... you're not pointing out how any specific decision weighs the film down, or narratively weakens it. You're picking on unrelated nonsense like the aformentioned made up space physics to attempt to objectively quantify your subjective dislike of the film.

    You can dislike the film because you thought Luke should have been more serious and bad ass and you don't like Rey and Holdo shouldn't have been a woman an blah blah blah other bullshit I've heard a billion times already. Fine. But don't go pretending that your analysis of the film extends anywhere beyond a dislike of the trappings of the movie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It's not competently plotted in the slightest there is a good half hour that could be taken out without losing anything. The central plot is essentially a low speed car chase such magic much drama. Whoever wrote Holdo obviously did zero research into the military. No person competent enough to be promoted to a command position would just expect everyone to follow them to their deaths with no clue what is going on. The sun will come back or w/e is one of the stupidest lines I've ever seen.
    Luke, Rey, and Kylo are the main plot of the film, for onesies.

    For twosies... Holdo thought there was a spy in the ship. No one else DID need to know about their plan. It would have worked out absolutely fine, and was going to, UNTIL an unscrupulous person learned of their plans, via the actions of Poe, Finn and Rose. Then their plans were ruined and things went to shit.

    The entirety of the rebellion is on the run for their lives and you are refusing to share what the hell you are going to do with one of the few people who is respected enough to get others to question you. That doesn't make sense nobody with that kind of thinking would be promoted to a command position. Also it absolutely has a JarJar her name is Rose and her entire existence and plot related to it could be cut with losing nothing.
    What is people's problem with Rose? She's just tagging along with the rest of them, following Poe's plan.

    In terms of being a star wars movie it actively detracts from the achievements in the OT by making them no matter. It's a bad film without delving into the other stuff.
    Was that the fault of TLJ, though?

    Which film basically brought the Empire Back? TFA.

    Which film basically destroyed the New Republic that would have been founded after Episode 6? TFA.

    Which film stuck Luke out on some island somewhere, meaning that yes, he did ignore the rise of the First Order? TFA.

    Which film basically stuck all the heroes into an ersatz rebellion called the resistance? TFA.

    All of those plot elements were set up in TFA. I'd argue that TLJ actually tried to change those plot trappings. By the end of TLJ, Kylo Ren isn't just second in command to some wannabe emperor; he's taken his destiny into his own hands. Luke finds a way to actually BE a Legendary Hero capable of inhuman feats, able to inspire the galaxy. Rey isn't just some chain in line of pre-ordained force gods; she's her own person, risen from nothing, with a future she can dictate. Obviously, those questions asked of the characters were a bit too heady for JJ to rectify with the direction he had already planned for Episode 9. Which is why 9 was a jumbled mess that featured the Emperor for some Reason.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2020-01-03 at 09:08 PM.
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  15. #5595
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    If we use your absurdly disingenuous list, then no one would debate whether he is a Mary Sue or not. .
    Seems pretty accurate to me, Luke was a rly shit jedi and only won one against Vader when he almost went to the dark side.

    almost anything he did he fail, his control of the force is weak before, just him struggle to get the saber from the ice show h is not a mary sue, a mary sue would get that easy and kill the monster

  16. #5596
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    It the OT, Luke is the "Child of Destiny" ... which is literally a special quality. He is literally "A New Hope". Mary Sue's are not required to be the best anything. Mary Sue's require actions that would be unreasonable in the lore of the respective universe.

    For example, if a Jedi had a power that their skin can deflect lightsaber blades ... but they are also still human. Would be a trait of a Mary Sue, even if they aren't the best at any thing else. It is unreasonable to have such a power. If they trained faster than anyone else, say became a Master at age 10 ... that would be a Mary Sue because we don't see any other fully trained Jedi so young, while training can be fast (a few years), that tends to only get someone to Knighthood, not Master.
    OK, so I showed where Luke was a side kick, was always losing and getting help to do anything, and you responded that with "He's a Mary Sue because he's the Child of Destiny" ? You didn't show anything unreasonable, which you list as the requirement, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  17. #5597
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    You obviously don't know what a Mary Sure is

    "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Typically, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment."

    Rey is idealized and virtually perfect...she doesn't need any training to do things flawlessly...she is apparently the chosen one, throwing away Lucas' established lore of Anakin being such...that's right, she is so fucking Mary Sue Disney defies canon to make her the Chosen One.

    She is wish fulfillment for Kathleen Kennedy...because you know what Star Wars is? Her own fan fiction! You know what Kathleen Kennedy is? A white brunette woman? You know what every Star Wars leading woman has been? A pretty little white brunette Brit...and who has ties to the British to the point she was awarded a honorary title? KK!



    So yes, stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LALALALALALALA" all you want, Rey is still the personification of a Mary Sue!
    So, your argument is Rey is a Mary Sue because Rey is a Mary Sue because you feel she is one ... and I am the one going LALALALALALA and sticking fingers in my ear?

    She is not perfect, therefor you are lying. If that is what you choose to apply logic ... guess what? Luke Skywalker (Luke S) is a wishfulment of George Lucas ... which means Star Wars protagonists have always Mary Sues thus the complaint of Rey being a Mary Sue is garbage.

    You do know that both Legends and Canon have implied that the Chosen one is garbage right? Seriously, you don't get to say something violates Lore when it is essentially already debated in Lore. In Legends, Anakin didn't bring an end to the Sith ... at all. There were always Sith around, Palpatine returned, etc ... it was clear in Legends, the Chosen One was merely an in universe LEGEND.

    Also, in Disney Canon, Obi-wan felt Luke was the Chosen One ... not Anakin. Yoda felt it was Leia ... not Luke or Anakin. Seriously, it is suggested strongly in all sources the chosen one is a myth. So no, Rey being the "real" or "next" Chosen one does not violate anything.

    Gee ... a brunette young woman being a Star Wars female lead ... never seen that before ever. It isn't like Leia was a brunette or Padme ... oh wait ... they were.

    Also, Kathleen Kennedy is American, she was born in Berkeley, CA and went to school in California ... why are you calling her "English"? Her mother was from New York State. And her father was born in California too ... why the hell did you post of meme calling her English?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    OK, so I showed where Luke was a side kick, was always losing and getting help to do anything, and you responded that with "He's a Mary Sue because he's the Child of Destiny" ? You didn't show anything unreasonable, which you list as the requirement, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.
    I was more pointing out that the statement "Luke doesn't have a special quality" when he is literally a child of destiny was false. I have no problems with the rest of your argument... I just support using consistent logic. You aren't applying the same logic to Rey as Luke ... you are drawing arbitrary lines and claiming they are significant enough.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2020-01-03 at 10:16 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  18. #5598
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Snip
    Lol we've found the cuckbear.

    Flaming isn't allowed. Infracted
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2020-01-04 at 12:20 AM.

  19. #5599
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    If we use your absurdly disingenuous list, then no one would debate whether he is a Mary Sue or not. We could cherry pick all day for both characters and have already for pages of this thread.

    Wedge is the best pilot... that's hilarious. You get that from what in the film exactly? That time he got shot and had to go home? I loved the X-Wing books but we're not talking about the EU here. That point even undermines your own argument, if he was the best, why exactly did command have Luke, the least experienced pilot on the battlefield, leading their little formation? Oh because he used to shoot varmints from his crop duster, okay.
    Yes, Wedge bailed out other pilots including Luke, Wedge is the only pilot never to have his ship disabled in any of the movies. I haven't seen anything to show Luke was better than Wedge in the movies. Best pilot doesn't automatically become the commander. That's not true in real life and I haven't seen anywhere in the movies or EU where it's stated as the requirement for command.

    The only reason Luke doesn't get shot down in ANH is because Wedge and Biggs where running interference and taking shots for him, then Han Solo had to come bail Luke out. Wedge takes shot directly from Anakin, and lives to tell the tale. What other pilot can say that?

    How is that possibly "Mary Sue" when other people had to die to help Luke and more other people had to fly in and force ghost in to continue to help him?

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

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    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yes, Wedge bailed out other pilots including Luke, Wedge is the only pilot never to have his ship disabled in any of the movies. I haven't seen anything to show Luke was better than Wedge in the movies. Best pilot doesn't automatically become the commander. That's not true in real life and I haven't seen anywhere in the movies or EU where it's stated as the requirement for command.

    The only reason Luke doesn't get shot down in ANH is because Wedge and Biggs where running interference and taking shots for him, then Han Solo had to come bail Luke out. Wedge takes shot directly from Anakin, and lives to tell the tale. What other pilot can say that?

    How is that possibly "Mary Sue" when other people had to die to help Luke and more other people had to fly in and force ghost in to continue to help him?
    Literally, Luke .. unless you count R2 as not part of the ship Luke's flying. So I guess it is debatable.

    Also, it isn't that impressive when we know that Vader let Wedge escape.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

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