Patch 8.3 PTR - Corrupted Gear Guide

[Relapses]

At one point you just ask yourself "Why am I playing this game?" If your goals, the fulfillment you get from playing the game, get taken away by the devs.

I'm going to reply to this but it's also a response to @Magnosh as well.

If the outcome in both scenarios -- either deterministic rewards or RNG-influenced systems like Corrupted gear and TFing -- is that people quit the game, what is a developer to do? If they listen to the hateful forum masses, the game goes back to the way it was and suddenly there are fewer people engaged in content and subscriber levels plummet. If they don't listen to the hateful forum masses, they're tone-deaf idiots who intentionally do things to piss off their playerbase. It's a lose-lose for the developers.

The only real solution is to do what they have been doing: Not taking full measures but instead building incrementally on existing systems. Forum posters will always be in favor of full measures because they have romanticized feelings about whatever version of WoW they personally felt was "perfect," but the reality is that what's perfect for one player was a shitshow for many others. And it's Blizzard's job to listen to the playerbase as a whole and not just the ones who have the strongest, loudest opinions. I will once again agree that it's unfortunate that WoW has become this weird amalgamation of many different carefully-thought-out systems designed to keep players engaged, but I don't see how WoW could continue to exist otherwise. The MMO boom ended a fucking decade ago and Blizzard must be doing something right to keep the game alive and profitable this many years later. For that alone, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

[Locruid]

First you pretty much dumbed down the classes and made them the same...... now damage seems to be % based more than anything.

And this is why Im going back to classic. If I wanted to play an FPS I would be playing Overwatch

[Magnosh]

I'm going to reply to this but it's also a response to @Magnosh as well.

If the outcome in both scenarios -- either deterministic rewards or RNG-influenced systems like Corrupted gear and TFing -- is that people quit the game, what is a developer to do? If they listen to the hateful forum masses, the game goes back to the way it was and suddenly there are fewer people engaged in content and subscriber levels plummet. If they don't listen to the hateful forum masses, they're tone-deaf idiots who intentionally do things to piss off their playerbase. It's a lose-lose for the developers.

The only real solution is to do what they have been doing: Not taking full measures but instead building incrementally on existing systems. Forum posters will always be in favor of full measures because they have romanticized feelings about whatever version of WoW they personally felt was "perfect," but the reality is that what's perfect for one player was a shitshow for many others. And it's Blizzard's job to listen to the playerbase as a whole and not just the ones who have the strongest, loudest opinions. I will once again agree that it's unfortunate that WoW has become this weird amalgamation of many different carefully-thought-out systems designed to keep players engaged, but I don't see how WoW could continue to exist otherwise. The MMO boom ended a fucking decade ago and Blizzard must be doing something right to keep the game alive and profitable this many years later. For that alone, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think that is entirely true tho, you have a bunch of examples the community wanted them to build on existing systems and you have Blizz basically doing something similar but new and much worst overall.

- Legendary Artifacts vs Azerite Armor, people loved artifacts and their leveling system and hated the rng of getting good Azerite pieces. Couldn't they just build on the Artifacts? Even if for Lorewise they wanted to move away from weapons they could still do a artifact the progression path on the neck with an equal power level that you would increase gradually by playing the game instead of ''lets gamble 2 weeks of m+ into 1 445 piece that is worst than my 430''

- Another system was in M+, people loved M+ in Legion so they wanted to build on it adding a seasonal affix, S1 was hateful with Infested, people disliked so they made S2 with Reaping, people loved it because it was fun, it gave flavor while not being game breaker or annoying so, players looked at this as ''blizz actually listens and went away from the shit rng feast that Infested was and gave us something fun to play, lets hope they build on this and S3 is something at this level'' and blizz went backwards, with an affix that is game breaking and where in some weeks people just rather not do m+ or just roll alliance for shadowmeld. S4 remains to be seen if it lands on the ''lets make something players might have fun with'' or ''something extremely annoying people dreed''.

[Ange]

And this is why Im going back to classic.

If you are afraid of CHANGES and scary new things you have to learn with the whole community for the very first time, you might be better of with classic.

I liked the TF/WF model and I am glad we get a new system for a while, maybe just to want TF/WF back for the next expansion.
The lack of adjustments for pet/petclasses is a bit disappointing, but not surprising, since many item-stats/raid-buffs were not tuned for pet classes in the past, so why start now with a correct implementation.

[kevincuomo]

I liked the TF/WF model and I am glad we get a new system for a while, maybe just to want TF/WF back for the next expansion.
The lack of adjustments for pet/petclasses is a bit disappointing, but not surprising, since many item-stats/raid-buffs were not tuned for pet classes in the past, so why start now with a correct implementation.[/QUOTE]

I stopped reading after you said you liked WF/TF...

[LordVargK]

If forging is a bonus for continued play to give a small chance at upgrades then yes it is entirely possible to get "Best in slot". While having a small bonus of better gear for continued play. You are not getting mediocre gear just because it doesn't have a forged bonus. That is the perception issue. People see the bonus as the requirement and anything less as terrible.

That's not how BiS works. By definition. And their perception is correct: They have the same gear they always had, but not that gear is not the best anymore. And it's not about what's good. It's about what's best. And only TF is best.

The feeling of being done is not unreachable it just takes a lot longer time if you want every one of slots to have the highest bonus. Why is the goal to get the very best now a problem just because it could take longer or have a higher chance of not being possible? That right there shows the problem is not with people that truly wanted that goal. But with the people that have the perception they wanted it. And those that are not willing to change the perception with a change in game systems.

It takes MUCH more time and it's tied to more randomness than ever. It's statistically impossible to be "done" with a toon until the next patch hits, except you are a top 100 Mythic raider. You want to change players perception on the game. They changed it. From "this game is fun and engaging" to "this game is a slotmachine"

You do not have to do every quest plus 1,000 world quests in the zone in order to get the related "lore master" for BfA. That right there is a strong indicator that it is a perception issue. You have to use hyperbole to inflate the requirements of what you perceive to be the problem now when using the truth makes it a non issue.

Oh really? I think that's not even a hyperbole. The chance for TF is assumed to be a 20%-33% role for every +5 increment. So the chance for + 25 is 0.2^5 or 1 in 3125 for 20%. Or if we assume 33%: 1:255. Let's now assume you just get your BiS gear from dungeons, so you can spam them. Even if every dungeon drops you THREE items, you would need (on average) (3*1/10+1/255)^-1=850 runs of this dungeon until you get your item with +25. I know, this is not the truly correct way to calculate this, but I assume an average of all players here. So, 850 runs to get one perfect item. And you need like 13? So good luck with that.

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...r-of-kul-tiras

It literally just requires you to do the story quests of the zones. That isn't even all of the zones. But you perceive it as something different so you have this idea in your head that it requires 1,000 world quests and it is changed just to get players to play the game longer (which isn't an automatic bad thing). You are using your dislike and angst at other things Blizzard does to channel into a scape goat.

DUDE (or dudine): I used this to illustrate what titanforging means for someone who wants BiS. I'm absolutely aware that Loremaster didn't get changed. But think about how you would feel if it were. And that's how people feel who like to be "done" with a raid.

That is the same thing with gearing. Players are unwilling to change their perception for a changing game system. Instead of seeing things as a bonus they see it is a requirement and set themselves up for automatic failure because they don't want to actually play till their desired end goal. They want to have their end goal take a reasonable time while still meeting their self imposed "end".

That's human nature. It's scientifically proven: If you give one human 100$ and another 1000$ the one who got 100$ is unhappy. And that's the same with gear: It's not a bonus, because not getting the bonus means that someone is better than you.

Stop seeing the bonus chances as requirements and it goes back to the way it was prior to those bonuses existing. And then those bonuses become actual bonuses for playing the game longer and continuing to do content that you out gear. Because you don't need any forged gear to clear the content. But many rely on it as a crutch to boost their own handicaps. Which is fine but that is when things start getting twisted.

There are SO many ways to achieve that goal in a better way. Nerfs, player buffs, everything. Or just having 4 (or 10 in case of m+) different difficulties, from which you get your gear step by step. There is absolutely no need for TF other than Blizz having this fear that someone with BiS gear stops playing the game. Which is silly, if the game is good enough then players will continue playing.

This just reinforced the issue of perception. The goals are not taken away. They just take a lot longer to attempt to meet. And your risk of not fulfilling it by the next Season of content is greater. But the developers never took the goal away. Again reinforcing that it is a matter of perception. You've changed what you want but are unwillingly to change it when it will positively impact you.

What? Of course I'm unwilling to change. I play a game to have fun. If my fun is in getting BiS and then move on to an alt, then I'm not gonna change my goal when that goal is made mathematically impossible. I just stop having fun. And stop playing.

If you are willing to believe that the end goal was taken away just because it was made longer. Then you are fully capable of believing the end goal is reachable by setting best in slot for non-bonus gear. People don't want to do that because they won't have the scapegoat for why they no longer enjoy the game. And will have to just realize it is simply because they don't.

Okay, that would be lying to one's self. Maybe you can to that, but I have learned that I can't. It's admitting defeat. Like aiming only for the Bronze medal if you got Gold 10 times in a row. Yeah, you still reached a goal. Hurray. But well, it's still Bronze, not Gold.

It comes done to this alot. Players want to be forced into something by Developers instead of being given the choice by the developers. You want your end goal to be forced by developers so you can reach it and just "enjoy" the game or quit. But players are unwilling to self assign that end goal that would allow them to just "enjoy" the game or quit.

Exatly the opposite. I want to self assign a goal. My goal could be getting the most achievements. It's not. It could be getting a high Arena rank. It's not. My goal is to get the best gear possible from running the raid with my guild. And then play an alt. And not to play 10h a day for that. That used to be possible in WotLK, Cata and MoP. Since Legion this is not possible anymore. My goal never changed, the game did. So yeah, maybe the game is not for me anymore. But I would like to continue to play with my guild, since these are people I've known for years now. So I'm still somewhat invested in the game. But currently I can't enjoy it. And part of that is TF.
In that regard corruption is an upgrade. Because it shifts powergain from the vertical into the horizontal direction. But gameplay wise it may be worse.

I'm going to reply to this but it's also a response to @Magnosh as well.

If the outcome in both scenarios -- either deterministic rewards or RNG-influenced systems like Corrupted gear and TFing -- is that people quit the game, what is a developer to do? If they listen to the hateful forum masses, the game goes back to the way it was and suddenly there are fewer people engaged in content and subscriber levels plummet. If they don't listen to the hateful forum masses, they're tone-deaf idiots who intentionally do things to piss off their playerbase. It's a lose-lose for the developers.

The only real solution is to do what they have been doing: Not taking full measures but instead building incrementally on existing systems. Forum posters will always be in favor of full measures because they have romanticized feelings about whatever version of WoW they personally felt was "perfect," but the reality is that what's perfect for one player was a shitshow for many others. And it's Blizzard's job to listen to the playerbase as a whole and not just the ones who have the strongest, loudest opinions. I will once again agree that it's unfortunate that WoW has become this weird amalgamation of many different carefully-thought-out systems designed to keep players engaged, but I don't see how WoW could continue to exist otherwise. The MMO boom ended a fucking decade ago and Blizzard must be doing something right to keep the game alive and profitable this many years later. For that alone, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

TF could be fine. If RNG was not the only way to obtain it. Let me upgrade an not forged item. You have the scrapbot this expansion. Give me some currency for every scrapped epic item and let me upgrade my equipment step by step. Items can still TF, you just have a way to grind it. A progressbar. Something other than just RNG. The speed at which you can upgrade your gear does not have to be fast. But it let's me be independant from RNG and certain, that I can reach my goal on my own, even without having luck. It's a mix of luck and incremental work.
And that's not nearly as radical as scrapping TF alltogether and introducing corruption.

[exochaft]

I hate negative effects on gear. I will be purifying anything that isn't negated by my cloak.

Here's the thing: you're going to be able to negate corruption fairly quickly. Even if you don't go hardcore nuts in the Horrific Visions and just run to the first boss and kill him every time... every time you complete it your cloak rank is going to go up (until lvl 6 on your cloak, then you have to do other areas... but it's still easy). By the time you hit rank 4 on your cloak, you can negate any negative effects from a single T3 %stat/%crit damage corruptions, T2 stat proc corruptions, and T1 of the damage proc-type corruptions. Weapon corruptions are a different beast, but most of them you'd only have to deal with a minimal snare that can be dispelled, suppressed, removed, etc. At rank 4 cloak + an essence that reduces corruption, you could have two T2 %stat/%crit corruptions with zero negative effects.

Reality is that you're likely only going to be worrying about negative effects of corruptions after having a 3rd or 4th item with corruption on them in most cases. The negative effects of one or two non-weapon items is going to be trivialized almost immediately.

[rhorle]

What? Of course I'm unwilling to change. I play a game to have fun. If my fun is in getting BiS and then move on to an alt, then I'm not gonna change my goal when that goal is made mathematically impossible. I just stop having fun. And stop playing.

So you are purposefully deciding to have no fun and to quit the game. Yet many of these people are still posting here so that isn't even an out come that will happen. The game has changed over 15 years. You as a player have changed over 15 years. Not willingly to change your perception of things in the game is intentionally setting yourself up for disappointment.

There is nothing stopping you to from getting BiS prior to forging and moving on to an alt. There is nothing left to accomplish accept for a bonus. But you perceive yourself as being incomplete and instead claim you will quit the game instead of just moving on to an alt. An alt where you would be starting the BiS gearing process all over again. Playing for weeks. For something you might not be able to get done before the next tier of content.

Again you are choosing to set your goals at something you feel is impossible just so you can quit the game because you no longer enjoy the game. Instead of admitting to yourself that you just don't enjoy the game and don't want to adapt to a changing system.

I want to self assign a goal

That is a flat out lie. You don't want to self assign a goal because you are arguing against having to self assign a goal that isn't the system forced Best in Slot. If your goal is to get the best possible gear from running a raid then you won't whine and quit when it takes a while to reach that goal. You don't have to play 10 hours a day to get the best possible gear from a raid.

You can continue to play with your guild with out having to chase 100% perfect itemization. Because the raids are not tuned around that. But by all means spend a literal 10 hours in a raid. Its clear you need every bit of power creep in order to clear content. Even the world first guilds don't need that amount of creep to clear the content though they do spend the time. Your own goals are setting yourself up for failure.

But instead of admitting that it is your self assigned goal you are blaming Blizzard for bad game design.

[Cazmosis]

This new gearing system makes no sense at all..

Such a strange fever dream from someone on the dev team. How it actually got pitched and approved is astounding

This is such a terrible idea

[LordVargK]

So you are purposefully deciding to have no fun and to quit the game. Yet many of these people are still posting here so that isn't even an out come that will happen. The game has changed over 15 years. You as a player have changed over 15 years. Not willingly to change your perception of things in the game is intentionally setting yourself up for disappointment.

No, I'm not deciding to not have fun. I realize that the game changed and it's not fun to me. I like games where i can optimize stuff. WoW was once such a game, now the optimizing aspect got way too tedious and RNG dependant. It's not fun to me anymore. Also WTF: Deciding to have fun. If I could decide to have fun I would decide that doing sports, learning everything and doing someful impactful in the world makes fun. But well, I can't decide that so I'm writing here on this forum.

There is nothing stopping you to from getting BiS prior to forging and moving on to an alt. There is nothing left to accomplish accept for a bonus. But you perceive yourself as being incomplete and instead claim you will quit the game instead of just moving on to an alt. An alt where you would be starting the BiS gearing process all over again. Playing for weeks. For something you might not be able to get done before the next tier of content.

I don't think you even know what BiS means. It's BEST in slot. BEST. Superlative from good. Meaning that there is no better. A bonus is something better. So you have to have this bonus to have BiS.

Again you are choosing to set your goals at something you feel is impossible just so you can quit the game because you no longer enjoy the game. Instead of admitting to yourself that you just don't enjoy the game and don't want to adapt to a changing system.

That doesn't even make sense. I am here, telling you that I don't have fun with TF, but want to play with my guild. Main goal is playing with my guild and now the game is in the way. I don't need an excuse for stopping the game. I don't like it. And TF is one (but not the only) reason because I don't like it. I'm just sad that I can't enjoy it anymore.

That is a flat out lie. You don't want to self assign a goal because you are arguing against having to self assign a goal that isn't the system forced Best in Slot. If your goal is to get the best possible gear from running a raid then you won't whine and quit when it takes a while to reach that goal. You don't have to play 10 hours a day to get the best possible gear from a raid.

Be extremely careful who you call a liar. And I don't whine because it takes a while. I whine because it's mathematically impossible, like I calculated for you. And I whine, because I'm not in charge of my own progress. RNG is. And no, not 10 hours a day. But more than 100 weeks to get 13 items with +25. Because I can only run a raid once a week.

You can continue to play with your guild with out having to chase 100% perfect itemization. Because the raids are not tuned around that. But by all means spend a literal 10 hours in a raid. Its clear you need every bit of power creep in order to clear content. Even the world first guilds don't need that amount of creep to clear the content though they do spend the time. Your own goals are setting yourself up for failure.

Sure I can. But I'm not enjoying the game while doing it and it's not worth my money to me.

But instead of admitting that it is your self assigned goal you are blaming Blizzard for bad game design.

I mean, the design is obviously not perfect, and if you deny that then there's nothing more to discuss. And in this thread I made suggestions how to improve it without getting rid of TF. I just can't understand how someone could defend a highly RND dependant system in an MMORPG. I repeat: WoW should not be Diablo. Those are 2 different genres. One is an MMORPG, the other a looting machine with RPG elements.

[Kel_Sceptic]

You still have alts, you still run raids with your guild, just with BiS gear. WoW is (was) not Diablo, where gear is the only reason to play the game.

^
This is my feeling aswell. The reason I've stopped played Diablo 3, was the introduction of the Paragon system, that made me feel bad about my character every time I would meet a guy with PARAGON lvl 3000. So I've just stopped playing the game. Seasons in Diablo 3 made the game better since you kinda don't see 15.000 level paragon players.

Anyways, WoW has borrowed some nice features from Diablo, like the Daily WQ Emissary, Rifts/Mythic+ etc. but has introduced some of the worst too: 1000 legendaries, titanforge/corrupted gear, just like Diablo has.

NOW, for a player that likes to play with only one character, it might be fine, it might be ok. But for a player that gets the fun while leveling and gearing alts, this is kind of impossible, since you always have the sense of neglecting your main.
During MoP, and even the crappy WoD, I've leveled all my alts (all classes) and all alts were geared with buyable blue gear with honor. The continuos grinding for azerite/artifact power, the fact that pvp gear had no more honor vendors anymore, and that the gear was mostly RNG, forced me to play with main only. I've leveled 2-3 alts to 120, but felt overwhelmed about things I have to do on main and never bother to play with the alts.



LE: Since blizzard is gating raid content with 1 clear per week, then, mathematically, a guy that raids every week until the next raid opens, should have BiS items. And that doesn't happens, and .... it is a mistake, cause why put that gear in the game, if you can't obtain BiS in the amount of time you a raid is available and still end content.
Sure there is Mythic+, but still, think about it, if a guy doesn't want to do M+, and just enjoys raiding with his guild, the time invested in that raiding already exceeds any reasonable time for a normal raider, so how can you force someone to do much more then that ?

[rhorle]

Be extremely careful who you call a liar. And I don't whine because it takes a while. I whine because it's mathematically impossible, like I calculated for you. And I whine, because I'm not in charge of my own progress. RNG is. And no, not 10 hours a day. But more than 100 weeks to get 13 items with +25. Because I can only run a raid once a week.

Why do I need to be careful about something your own posts indicate? Are you going to sue me? Cyber stalk me? It isn't mathematically impossible to get a forged in every spot. It may be mathematically unlikely. But you have a chance with each gear drop. You are just as in charge of your own progress as you were back in WotLK, TBC, or Vanilla. Because you are still beholden to RNG. That right there indicates you are a liar. You keep using hyperbole or outright false hoods to argue.

If forging is the problem why would you suggest ways to improve it with out getting rid of that problem? That right there shows that it isn't about forging not having a BiS but the time it takes to meet your goal. Which means that it isn't about the goal of 100% perfect character but about getting it in whatever time frame you deem is reasonable. Which again goes back to perception. You perceive the problem to be a certain way when you've now stated that it is about the time it takes you to gear up rather then having bonus gear.

That doesn't even make sense. I am here, telling you that I don't have fun with TF, but want to play with my guild.

Which is why it doesn't make sense for you to place such a high importance on something that you don't enjoy when you just want to play with your guild. It is not a requirement to chase the bonus forging. They are bonuses for continuing to do the content. You keep saying your goal is to get 100% perfect gear but now just stated your goal is to play with your guild. You can have multiple goals but only one has to be to the main driving factor. If your goal is to play with your guild then getting perfect gear is secondary to that goal and ultimately doesn't matter if you get bonus forging or not.

I just can't understand how someone could defend a highly RND dependant system in an MMORPG. I repeat: WoW should not be Diablo. Those are 2 different genres. One is an MMORPG, the other a looting machine with RPG elements.

Nothing about forging makes WoW Diablo. It is laughable for you to even make that comparison. A random chance at a small item level increase is the same as being showered in gear? RNG has always been core to WoW and having it as a bonus isn't a big deal. Because that is what the forging is and always has been. A bonus to gear. If you see it is a bonus then there is nothing wrong with missing out on the bonus.

Everything in WoW is highly dependent on RNG. That is what has been the basis for drops since the beginning. To claim that RNG bonuses are not a core feature is down right dumb. If it isn't your idea of an MMORPG why did you even keep playing wow after 15+ years of RNG?

[Axxil]

WoW is (was) not Diablo, where gear is the only reason to play the game.

Gear IS the only reason to play WoW. If bosses dropped nothing the game wouldn't be worth playing.

[Kel_Sceptic]

Gear IS the only reason to play WoW. If bosses dropped nothing the game wouldn't be worth playing.

There is a difference between a teacher forcing a kid to write on the table 100times "I was speaking during class." and to force him write that 10000 times.

Sure gear is one of the cores of WoW, but so are friends/guilds, alts.

I remember I got Nathrezim Mindblade right after 10 weeks of clearing, and I was happy about it. But if WF/TF would have exited back in TBC, man, I ask miself how would i feel if it would have dropped JUST the normal version

Nothing about forging makes WoW Diablo. It is laughable for you to even make that comparison. A random chance at a small item level increase is the same as being showered in gear? RNG has always been core to WoW and having it as a bonus isn't a big deal. Because that is what the forging is and always has been. A bonus to gear. If you see it is a bonus then there is nothing wrong with missing out on the bonus.

Are you sure nothing about forging makes WoW diablo ?

Titanforge = Corrupted
Warforged = Legendary
Normal = Normal

As for the "bonus", that is he's whole point, why make it a lottery ? I mean yes, RNG, 1%, stuff like that, BUT, lottery means not 1%, but, for example in 6 out of 49, 1 chance in 13.983.816, that is 0.00000007%.

A casino or lottery gives you MONEY for Winning, a game should not contain the same odds as a casino.

[LordVargK]

Gear IS the only reason to play WoW. If bosses dropped nothing the game wouldn't be worth playing.

Okay, why do you want better gear?

Sure gear is important in WoW. But for me it's not the most important. It's means to an end.

[Sinzaram]

Bonus Effects
When an item drops, it will randomly be assigned a bonus effect.
Echoing Void - Your damaging abilities build the Echoing Void. Each time it builds, Echoing Void has a chance to collapse, dealing X% of your Health as Shadow damage to all nearby enemies every 1 sec until no stacks remain.

VS

Certain weapons in the Ny'alotha raid can proc unique corruption bonuses.

• The Hivemind
• Qwor N'lyeth - Equip: Your damaging abilities build the Echoing Void. Each time it builds, Echoing Void has a chance to collapse, dealing 1.50% of your Health as Shadow damage to all nearby enemies every 1 sec until no stacks remain. (25 Corruption)

I don't think you're using that word UNIQUE correctly.
When half of them can proc on any gear like the post already mentioned.

Also I don't think you're using that word PROC correctly.
When the effects are 100% guaranteed on these specific weapons!

News post is just adding extra confusion to people.

[LordVargK]

Why do I need to be careful about something your own posts indicate? Are you going to sue me? Cyber stalk me? It isn't mathematically impossible to get a forged in every spot. It may be mathematically unlikely. But you have a chance with each gear drop. You are just as in charge of your own progress as you were back in WotLK, TBC, or Vanilla. Because you are still beholden to RNG. That right there indicates you are a liar. You keep using hyperbole or outright false hoods to argue.

You're rude. Wow. In the case of getting BiS in the runtime of one raid unlikely equals impossible because I specifically stated that I'm talking about an average (see first post). Even in one m+ season. You're just splitting hairs because you have no better argument.

If forging is the problem why would you suggest ways to improve it with out getting rid of that problem? That right there shows that it isn't about forging not having a BiS but the time it takes to meet your goal. Which means that it isn't about the goal of 100% perfect character but about getting it in whatever time frame you deem is reasonable. Which again goes back to perception. You perceive the problem to be a certain way when you've now stated that it is about the time it takes you to gear up rather then having bonus gear.

If the required timeframe (on average) exeeds the length of a season, then it's not unreasonable but impossible. see above

Which is why it doesn't make sense for you to place such a high importance on something that you don't enjoy when you just want to play with your guild. It is not a requirement to chase the bonus forging. They are bonuses for continuing to do the content. You keep saying your goal is to get 100% perfect gear but now just stated your goal is to play with your guild. You can have multiple goals but only one has to be to the main driving factor. If your goal is to play with your guild then getting perfect gear is secondary to that goal and ultimately doesn't matter if you get bonus forging or not.

Okay, let me put it this way: My guild is the only reason I'm even considering playing WoW. But atm it's so unenjoyable enough to play. So ultimately the quality of the game trumps the desire to play with my guild. But there's still no reason for me not to have the desire, that the game returns to a state, where it's more enjoyable for me.

Nothing about forging makes WoW Diablo. It is laughable for you to even make that comparison. A random chance at a small item level increase is the same as being showered in gear? RNG has always been core to WoW and having it as a bonus isn't a big deal. Because that is what the forging is and always has been. A bonus to gear. If you see it is a bonus then there is nothing wrong with missing out on the bonus.

"Showered in gear" have you played Diablo? sure, you get tons of drops, but only 1% of them are useful, so it's the same small chance of an upgrade as in WoW right now.
And if I see normal mode just as a bonus to lfr, then lfr is the pinnacle of raiding. That's how you sound.

Everything in WoW is highly dependent on RNG. That is what has been the basis for drops since the beginning. To claim that RNG bonuses are not a core feature is down right dumb. If it isn't your idea of an MMORPG why did you even keep playing wow after 15+ years of RNG?

SOME RNG is okay. But everything in moderation. Legion went overboard. Let me reiterate: Before Legion (technically before WoD) RNG was as follows:
1. Get item or don't
2. Choose item from loot table

two instances of RNG
Now it is:
1. get item or don't
2. get item from loottable (in case of m+ this loottable is much bigger so higher RNG)
3. check for TF (up to 5 RNG checks)
4. check for socket
5. check for tertiary stat (that's a bonus for me!)

So yeah, tell me about "RNG has always been part of the game".

[rhorle]

Are you sure nothing about forging makes WoW diablo ?

If you know anything about the two games then you wouldn't even need to ask a question like that. Having bonus rolls, or corrupted items, in WoW does not make it anything like Diablo. It just makes it like WoW. RNG gear upgrades.

It is always a lottery. That is what random loot drops means. A casino can have any odds they want so it is quite frankly dumb to say that a game shouldn't not sure any odds that are the same as a casino. Also you are making up percents and numbers for chances to suit your argument. I can do the same thing but I won't. You do not have a .00000007% chance of getting a forged item in WoW. And even if you did so what? That is the point of a bonus.

You have a small chance of seeing an upgrade from continuing to do content. There is a reason why they say only fools play the lottery because your chance of winning is slim. Why is that ignored for people who chase the "lottery" of gearing up? If you have a large chance at an upgrade and a rare chance at an upgrade which is healthier to set your sights as an end goal? Which one is better for the over all game as an "end goal" if you want to play alts, and just hang out doing stuff with guildies?

- - - Updated - - -

You're rude. Wow. In the case of getting BiS in the runtime of one raid unlikely equals impossible because I specifically stated that I'm talking about an average (see first post). Even in one m+ season. You're just splitting hairs because you have no better argument.

And you are not rude? You told me to be extremely careful to say you lied when you've exaggerated the entire time you've been posting. You basically threatened me and call me rude. Lol. I am not splitting hairs. It is mathematically possible to get every piece of gear on a BiS list in one Season. You are confusing possible with probably. You probably will not. Just like it was possible for you to not get BiS for the current tier prior to the forging system being introduced.

There is a difference between impossible and improbable. You can literally get a drop from every boss and have them all forge. It is unlikely but possible. Because that is the way random chances work. There is no bad luck protection built in. This is why it is dumb to chase that chance. Even more so when you claim it is the sole reason for killing your enjoyment of the game.

You can chase the same BiS lists from Wotlk. Those are self imposed instead of Developer imposed because they do not include forged items. Just as you can make a list that tops out at tier 1 corruption. Which is extremely probable to obtain.

My guild is the only reason I'm even considering playing WoW. But atm it's so unenjoyable enough to play. So ultimately the quality of the game trumps the desire to play with my guild. But there's still no reason for me not to have the desire, that the game returns to a state, where it's more enjoyable for me.

So the guild isn't the only reason you are considering to play if enjoyment of the game is a factor. Because you are using that as a reason to consider playing or not. This also is a bunch of hot air because in a past post you've stated you've barely played the past few expansions. So the guild really isn't a factor as no guild cares about a player that has barely played the last few expansions. You also state you are playing classic which is a better explanation for much of your "retail" angst.

There is nothing wrong with wanting the game to be enjoyable for yourself. But you are self imposing restrictions. You can set up BiS lists that will mimic exactly what was possible in WotLK. You can end your gear chase at the same point. You can then play alts. You can then play with your guild just for the fun of it. But you are choosing not to. You are choosing to chase what you call impossible and then blaming the game that it allows you to make that choice.

So it isn't about your guild. It isn't about alts. It is about you not finding enjoyment in retail just as you haven't found for the past 3 expansions. And using forging as the scape goat.

"Showered in gear" have you played Diablo? sure, you get tons of drops, but only 1% of them are useful, so it's the same small chance of an upgrade as in WoW right now.

But you said it is impossible. It isn't impossible to get gear upgrades in Diablo. WoW doesn't shower you in gear. You can't repeat lock outs in WoW for more gear. It is nothing like Diablo. I can rinse and repeat as many times as I want to be showered in gear. You can't do that in WoW because you are limited by instance lock outs. It doesn't matter if chances work out to be exactly the same.

Because the meaning of those chances are entirely different.

SOME RNG is okay. But everything in moderation. Legion went overboard. Let me reiterate: Before Legion (technically before WoD) RNG was as follows:
1. Get item or don't
2. Choose item from loot table

It is literally the same now. You get the item or you do not. You chase an item on a loot table or not. You are choosing to add more items to the list. You also leave out item upgrading in MoP. Where you know you had to get the item you needed then upgrade that item then repeat again if you got a better item when it was fully upgrade. There have been people complaining about "RNG" since Cata LFR. It is certainly easier to perceive the issue with the different things an item can or can not have. But it is still a perception issue.

Just focus on is an upgrade or not with out getting caught up in the details. You can chase the same exact BiS list that existed prior to forging. If you just choose to do so. If everything you say here is true then choosing to change your perception like that would instantly make the game enjoyable for you. But I highly doubt it would be instantly enjoyable which means that your issues are greater then the perception of being forced to micromanage RNG.

[Toijin]

That's not how BiS works. By definition. And their perception is correct: They have the same gear they always had, but not that gear is not the best anymore. And it's not about what's good. It's about what's best. And only TF is best.



It takes MUCH more time and it's tied to more randomness than ever. It's statistically impossible to be "done" with a toon until the next patch hits, except you are a top 100 Mythic raider. You want to change players perception on the game. They changed it. From "this game is fun and engaging" to "this game is a slotmachine"



Oh really? I think that's not even a hyperbole. The chance for TF is assumed to be a 20%-33% role for every +5 increment. So the chance for + 25 is 0.2^5 or 1 in 3125 for 20%. Or if we assume 33%: 1:255. Let's now assume you just get your BiS gear from dungeons, so you can spam them. Even if every dungeon drops you THREE items, you would need (on average) (3*1/10+1/255)^-1=850 runs of this dungeon until you get your item with +25. I know, this is not the truly correct way to calculate this, but I assume an average of all players here. So, 850 runs to get one perfect item. And you need like 13? So good luck with that.



DUDE (or dudine): I used this to illustrate what titanforging means for someone who wants BiS. I'm absolutely aware that Loremaster didn't get changed. But think about how you would feel if it were. And that's how people feel who like to be "done" with a raid.



That's human nature. It's scientifically proven: If you give one human 100$ and another 1000$ the one who got 100$ is unhappy. And that's the same with gear: It's not a bonus, because not getting the bonus means that someone is better than you.



There are SO many ways to achieve that goal in a better way. Nerfs, player buffs, everything. Or just having 4 (or 10 in case of m+) different difficulties, from which you get your gear step by step. There is absolutely no need for TF other than Blizz having this fear that someone with BiS gear stops playing the game. Which is silly, if the game is good enough then players will continue playing.



What? Of course I'm unwilling to change. I play a game to have fun. If my fun is in getting BiS and then move on to an alt, then I'm not gonna change my goal when that goal is made mathematically impossible. I just stop having fun. And stop playing.



Okay, that would be lying to one's self. Maybe you can to that, but I have learned that I can't. It's admitting defeat. Like aiming only for the Bronze medal if you got Gold 10 times in a row. Yeah, you still reached a goal. Hurray. But well, it's still Bronze, not Gold.



Exatly the opposite. I want to self assign a goal. My goal could be getting the most achievements. It's not. It could be getting a high Arena rank. It's not. My goal is to get the best gear possible from running the raid with my guild. And then play an alt. And not to play 10h a day for that. That used to be possible in WotLK, Cata and MoP. Since Legion this is not possible anymore. My goal never changed, the game did. So yeah, maybe the game is not for me anymore. But I would like to continue to play with my guild, since these are people I've known for years now. So I'm still somewhat invested in the game. But currently I can't enjoy it. And part of that is TF.
In that regard corruption is an upgrade. Because it shifts powergain from the vertical into the horizontal direction. But gameplay wise it may be worse.



TF could be fine. If RNG was not the only way to obtain it. Let me upgrade an not forged item. You have the scrapbot this expansion. Give me some currency for every scrapped epic item and let me upgrade my equipment step by step. Items can still TF, you just have a way to grind it. A progressbar. Something other than just RNG. The speed at which you can upgrade your gear does not have to be fast. But it let's me be independant from RNG and certain, that I can reach my goal on my own, even without having luck. It's a mix of luck and incremental work.
And that's not nearly as radical as scrapping TF alltogether and introducing corruption.

I completely agree with you. One of the reason(s) i've actually completely quit raiding and playing besides logging on 1-2hrs a week to grind a mount is absolutely to do with what you mentioned with 'goals'. I don't and never cared for achievements or PVP/Arena. But i did care about raiding to get the best gear i can get, to PUSH higher difficulties to obtain the very best gear. This was true in Vanilla, BC, Wotlk, MoP.

As it stands with Wf/Tf there is no longer an END GOAL unless if you're very lucky. I'm not. Never been lucky.

So there is no longer a finish line. I like having a finish line and i believe it is actually good and healthy to reach an end; whether that is so you can take a break between raid tiers, or play a different class (alts) to experience the game from a different perspective and to understand your other guildies' concerns. But without an end goal now it just absolutely blows. I just gave up and stopped trying entirely.

I have suggested the old valor points/item upgrade system ontop of the TF system before as that is still a way to ease out the unluckiness while having a targetable end goal. Without an end goal the game just feels like a lottery, a never ending lottery that every patch completely replaces and resets. It's like if you played the Witcher 3 but the game is an endless grind of side quests with no ending to the storyline. I want to finish.

[Anastacy]

What a shitty sounding system.

I’m sad that I haven’t really been able to play since BoD progression (hard finding a guild with my available times), but at the same time I’m kinda glad (and glad that Shadowblands looks terrible too).

Oh well.