Personal opinion: Shadowlands will be a bad expansion.

[Mozu]

Accuracy isnt quantifyable in subjective opinions. Pandaria didnt look kiddy to me, and WoD didnt look cool. To me, thats accuracy.

The info presented doesn't matter because all youre talking about is how you interpreted it.

When speaking about thematics, you're right; however, pandarian being the least played race in the game speaks plenty about a consensus for that issue.

Ultimately, my only issue is with anybody saying accurate information can't be gleaned early on.

[Ielenia]

The polls you linked have about 1k votes per poll. Of which, only a couple hundred even voted for MoP as the best. So, combing all of your data and (incorrectly) assuming they are all unique votes, you get a few thousand people saying MoP was the best expansion. Out of tens of millions of people that have played wow over the years.

That's .03% of the wow population at 10 million. (Which, many more than 10 million have played in the past, I seem to remember them reaching 100 million world of warcraft accounts at some point).

I'd hardly call .03% a majority in anything, nor nearly enough data to extrapolate anything.

In fact, you could multiple these numbers by multiple orders of magnitude and you still wouldn't reach even close to a majority.

A few thousand people is no where near enough to get a confidence high enough to draw accurate conclusions based on these polls. Again, you just fail to understand the scale in which you're arguing.

My evidence is still over a hundred thousand percent (100.000%) more accurate than your sample size of one (1).

According to you.

But your opinion is fact, right? Your opinion trumps everyone else's, right? If you have the opinion that an expansion is shit, then it's objectively shit, and all those that do not agree with you are "denying reality", right?

[Mozu]

My evidence is still over a hundred thousand percent (100.000%) more accurate than your sample size of one (1).

Did you get those numbers from another MMO poll?

But your opinion is fact, right? Your opinion trumps everyone else's, right? If you have the opinion that an expansion is shit, then it's objectively shit, and all those that do not agree with you are "denying reality", right?

Nice try with this leap, but no. Pointing out their singular opinion doesn't matter doesn't mean or imply my opinion does. Luckily for me, not all of my posts in this thread are opinion.

[Mellrod]

This is the same generic opinion that we get every expansion after announcement but before launch. Either you people know some kind of divination that lets you see the direction of an entire expansion across it's lifetime just from the Blizzcon teaser videos, or you're formulating your opinion based on presumptions combined with your first impression of Blizzcon.

I have trouble understanding the "there's not a lot of features!" argument people present when making these kinds of threads every year. In your mind, what is the minimum number of features that's considered acceptable? I have a theory that most people making this argument are satisfied based on how many words were shown in that flashy golden text at the end of an expansion trailer, because as of this point, that's virtually all we have to go off of. Nevermind that an expansion is more than it's launch features, right?

Your complaint about cataclysm doesn't hold much water either. The problem with Cata zones wasn't that they were spread out, but that we just got portals to them in our capital cities. Instant teleportation doesn't make for an immersive questing experience. They did the same with important vendors too. With all our amenities in one city, people got bored, and holing up in one place that is the antithesis of level design. Unless Shadowlands falls into this habit (which they have obviously learned from since 2010-2012), then I see no similarities.

[Ielenia]

Did you get those numbers from another MMO poll?

Basic math. Again, you have nothing to back up your claims that "MoP predictions were true", and all existing evidence points against your claim.

Nice try with this leap, but no. Pointing out their singular opinion doesn't matter doesn't mean or imply my opinion does. Luckily for me, not all of my posts in this thread are opinion.

Except everything you said about "MoP predictions were true" are all but opinions. Opinions that go against the consensus, too. You can't claim as fact that the predictions that MoP would be a bad expansion were true when basically every single poll you find paints the picture that MoP is regarded as one of the good expansions.

[Mozu]

Basic math. Again, you have nothing to back up your claims that "MoP predictions were true", and all existing evidence points against your claim.

Of course I do, as I've already explained in previous posts.

Except everything you said about "MoP predictions were true" are all but opinions. Opinions that go against the consensus, too. You can't claim as fact that the predictions that MoP would be a bad expansion were true when basically every single poll you find paints the picture that MoP is regarded as one of the good expansions.

Here you go again, thinking your few MMO polls equal a consensus. How tiring.

This is the same generic opinion that we get every expansion after it's announcement and before it's launch. Either you people know some kind of divination that lets you see the direction of an entire expansion across it's lifetime just from the Blizzcon teaser videos, or you're formulating your opinion based on presumptions combined with your first impression of said teaser video.

That's how predictions work. You take information of the future that you know (teaser trailer) and also information of relevant history (all the expansions released thus far) and create the most likely scenario.

[Ielenia]

Of course I do, as I've already explained in previous posts.

'Your sole opinion' is not evidence.

Here you go again, thinking your few MMO polls equal a consensus. How tiring.

It's, again, one-hundred thousand percent more of a consensus than your sole opinion.

That's how predictions work. You take information of the future that you know (teaser trailer) and also information of relevant history (all the expansions released thus far) and create the most likely scenario.

The problem is that these are being based of on little to no information to make accurate predictions.

Again, I can show you even more threads where people are ranking expansions and MoP shows in the upper half of the majority of the posters' lists.

[Mozu]

It's, again, one-hundred thousand percent more of a consensus than your sole opinion.

Lmao, no it's not. Both of those things are equally pointless. Luckily, my opinion is not my only (or even my main) argument.

The problem is that these are being based of on little to no information to make accurate predictions.

15 years of expansions is little to no information?

If someone spits on you every single year for 15 years, and they release a video showing them about to spit on you again next year, it's pretty safe to assume they're going to continue that trend.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what shadowlands will be like based on the history of the game and the teaser they released.

Again, I can show you even more threads where people are ranking expansions and MoP shows in the upper half of the majority of the posters' lists.

It's beyond hilarious that you keep coming back to this faulty "proof" for every one of your arguments.

Wonder how many times I'll need to repeat this before it clicks for you: MMO-Champion threads are not an accurate measurement of a consensus.

Delusional.

[Will]

That's more a prediction than an opinion, considering its far from being out and we still know way too little (and what we do know is subject to much change). What the op is doing is kind of like saying their Christmas present isn't great in their opinion when they don't have a clue what the present is yet.

[Niwes]

i hope for:
a high quality xpac with less grind, less rng, less stupid pseudo complex systems (based on grind and rng), good class design, alt friendlyness and foremost a dominating „quality over quantity“ philosophy.

i expect:
another cheap shit xpac that is milking the cow, horrible recycling of old lore characters in cheap shit stories, half assed systems, bad class design, no listening to beta users and not even „quantity over quality“ but just „no quantity and no quality“. milk it baby.

[jzhbee]

Torghast
the maw
covenents
soul binding
legendary crafting
new dungeons, raids, etc.




i love how you say "this new expansion has no content, just the normal dungeons and raid stuff plus 1 or 2 more things"


remember back when an expansion ALL YOU GOT was new raids and dungeons and stuff?

Vanilla to TBC. - Dungeons, raids, areana
TBC to wotlk- Dungeons, raids... thats it...
WOTLK to cata- dungeons... raids...
Cata to mop- Dungeons.... raids.... oh hey challenge mode and scenarios!
Mop to Wod- dungeons... raids... garrison..?
Wod to legion- Dungeons, raids, artifacts, mage tower! M+
Legion to BFA- dungeons, raids, azerite! warfronts, islands!
BFA to shadowlands- dungeons, raids, torghast, covenents.

[

This is kinda bullshit. Youre glossing over a lot.
BC added Flying, Dailies.
WotLK added PvP Gear (resilience), vehicles, quest zone phasing, LFD, Death Knights.
Cata had reworked talent trees for every class, and fully revamped old world. New water engine.
MoP had new talent system, pet battling, a unique neutral race.
WoD added a really bad expansion.
Etc.

Its somewhat dishonest to gloss over this.

[Ielenia]

Lmao, no it's not. Both of those things are equally pointless. Luckily, my opinion is not my only (or even my main) argument.

And yet it's the only one you've put forth.

15 years of expansions is little to no information?

Yes, because those "fifteen years" are not "fifteen years of Shadowlands". Can you make a prediction? Sure. You can make predictions without even knowing what the expansion would be about. Hell, it's what all those people have done with their "leaks" and class predictions, etc.

Now, accurate predictions, on the other hand? No. Not a chance. Any predictions regarding the overall quality of the expansion at this point in time is basically a shot in the dark. It's like trying to predict what number I'd get when rolling dice, without knowing how many dice I have, and how many faces each dice has.

If someone spits on you every single year for 15 years, and they release a video showing them about to spit on you again next year, it's pretty safe to assume they're going to continue that trend.

Except none of that happened. And, again, we have predictions saying MoP would be a bad expansion, and yet it turned out to be a good expansion in the eyes of the majority.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what shadowlands will be like based on the history of the game and the teaser they released.

Of course not. Because rocket scientists don't make predictions about the future. But on a more serious note: any "rocket scientist" would tell you that you can't make accurate predictions on little to no information, which is the case, here.

It's beyond hilarious that you keep coming back to this faulty "proof" for every one of your arguments.

Repeating it's "faulty" does not make it truth. And yet here I am presenting evidence after evidence, while you have yet to present a single point of evidence for your claim that "MoP predictions that it'd be a bad expansion were correct" other than your own single opinion. All you do is handwave proof that goes against your established worldview by saying "meh, you're wrong".

Wonder how many times I'll need to repeat this before it clicks for you: MMO-Champion threads are not an accurate measurement of a consensus.

Still over a thousand times more of an accurate measurement of a consensus than your sole opinion.

Delusional.

Yes, we know you are.

[Mozu]

And yet it's the only one you've put forth.

I supposed that's true for people like you who only read things that match their own opinions.

Yes, because those "fifteen years" are not "fifteen years of Shadowlands". Can you make a prediction? Sure. You can make predictions without even knowing what the expansion would be about. Hell, it's what all those people have done with their "leaks" and class predictions, etc.

Now, accurate predictions? No. Not a chance. Any predictions regarding the overall quality of the expansion at this point in time is basically a shot in the dark. It's like trying to predict what number I'd get when rolling dice, without knowing how many dice I have, and how many faces each dice has.

History allows us to make very accurate predictions. Noticing patterns and deriving information from that is how human brains work. Your dice analogy is disgustingly wrong.

Except none of that happened. And, again, we have predictions saying MoP would be a bad expansion, and yet it turned out to be a good expansion in the eyes of the majority.

The majority of the threads on MMO-Champion that you visited, maybe. Not the majority of anything else in reality. If you go to a forum about kicking puppies, you'll find a majority poll there that says kicking puppies is great.

I don't understand why this is such a hard thing for you to understand, but I guess not everyone gets past high-school statistics.

Of course not. Because rocket scientists don't make predictions about the future. But on a more serious note: any "rocket scientist" would tell you that you can't make accurate predictions on little to no information, which is the case, here.

Plenty of information to go on, as I've said multiple times.

Repeating it's "faulty" does not make it truth

No, but it being faulty does make it faulty.

Yes, we know you are.

"We" huh? Let me guess: That's the consensus of everyone in the world based on this thread?

Still, delusional.

[FelPlague]

This is kinda bullshit. Youre glossing over a lot.
BC added Flying, Dailies.
WotLK added PvP Gear (resilience), vehicles, quest zone phasing, LFD, Death Knights.
Cata had reworked talent trees for every class, and fully revamped old world. New water engine.
MoP had new talent system, pet battling, a unique neutral race.
WoD added a really bad expansion.
Etc.

Its somewhat dishonest to gloss over this.

1. flying is a system not a thing you do. dalies yes i forgot, but then i also gotta add "World quests" in Wod to legion.
2. PVP gear is not content, nor is quest zone phasing, or LFD, or death knights. those are systems not content.
3. again reworked talents is not content. "new water engine" not new content. revamped zones is just new zones like every expansion.
4. pet batyteling ok yep, other 2 again not content.

[Ielenia]

I supposed that's true for people like you who only read things that match their own opinions.

Alright. For the sake of argument: please re-link the post of yours in which you showcase your other evidence.

History allows us to make very accurate predictions.

... Do you even know what accurate means? Accurate predictions means correct predictions. There is a huge difference between informed predictions and accurate predictions.

"MoP will be a bad expansion" is not an "accurate prediction" because the expansion turned out to be good.

Want another example? For over fifteen years, Blizzard has released a new class every odd-numbered expansion patch (3.0, 5.0, 7.0). By your logic, it would be an accurate prediction that 9.0 (Shadowlands) would bring a new class. But it won't. Hence, it's not an accurate prediction. Informed? Yes. Accurate? No.

The majority of the threads on MMO-Champion that you visited, maybe. Not the majority of anything else in reality. If you go to a forum about kicking puppies, you'll find a majority poll there that says kicking puppies is great.

This is highly ironic after you call my analogy bad. Are you saying you believe MMO-Champion is a Mists of Pandaria fan site?

No, but it being faulty does make it faulty.

Again, in different words: your sole opinion that it is faulty does not make it a fact.

Still, delusional.

Yes, we know you are.

[Mozu]

... Do you even know what accurate means? Accurate predictions means correct predictions. There is a huge difference between informed predictions and accurate predictions.

What? If I predict it will rain tomorrow and it rains tomorrow, that is an accurate prediction.

"MoP will be a bad expansion" is not an "accurate prediction" because the expansion turned out to be good.

"MoP will be a bad expansion" is an "accurate prediction" because the expansion turned out to be bad.

Want another example? For over fifteen years, Blizzard has released a new class every odd-numbered expansion patch (3.0, 5.0, 7.0). By your logic, it would be an accurate prediction that 9.0 (Shadowlands) would bring a new class. But it won't. Hence, it's not an accurate prediction. Informed? Yes. Accurate? No.

You can say something is an accurate prediction after the fact. Not sure what your point is here. My logic does not say all predictions are accurate.

This is highly ironic after you call my analogy bad. Are you saying you believe MMO-Champion is a Mists of Pandaria fan site?

The people who voted in these polls are fans of Mists, yes. Still not a representation of anything other than that, though.

Again, in different words: your sole opinion that it is faulty does not make it a fact.

Also the opinion of statisticians.

Yes, we know you are.

Are you 12?

Still, delusional.

[Gref]

i know their plan. there is not new class for the first 6 months (subs decline) then bammm here is your new class (subs increase) then bammm big patch. next expansion.

If they released the class starting with the new expansion, it would not save the subs.

You are asking how they can add a new class in the middle of an expansion lorewise?
Lol have you seen the NE girls becoming the harbingers of death in a split second in darkshore? asking consistent + lore ok writing from blizz at this point is ridiculous.

[Mozu]

1. flying is a system not a thing you do. dalies yes i forgot, but then i also gotta add "World quests" in Wod to legion.
2. PVP gear is not content, nor is quest zone phasing, or LFD, or death knights. those are systems not content.
3. again reworked talents is not content. "new water engine" not new content. revamped zones is just new zones like every expansion.
4. pet batyteling ok yep, other 2 again not content.

Your definition of content is pretty limiting. Death knights aren't content? New talents and new zones aren't content?

[FelPlague]

Your definition of content is pretty limiting. Death knights aren't content? New talents and new zones aren't content?

1. death knights arnt content
2. new talents arnt new content, plus every expansion adds new talents in a way
3. every expansion adds new zones. so sorry


vanilla to tbc- new zones, new dungeons, new raids, dailies, arenas
tbc to wotlk- new zones, new dungeons, new raids
wotlk to cata- new zones, new dungeons, new raids
cata to mop- new zones, new dungeons, new raids, scenarios, challenge mode
mop to wod- new zones, new dungeons, new raids, garrisons
wod to legion- new zones, new dungeons, new raids, M+, mage tower
legion to BFA- new zones, new dungeons, new raids, warfronts, islands
BFA to shadow- new zones, new dungeons, new raids, covenents, torghast

[Ielenia]

What? If I predict it will rain tomorrow and it rains tomorrow, that is an accurate prediction.

That doesn't change the fact that "ACCURATE predictions" are not the same thing as "INFORMED predictions". Me saying, right now, that Blizzard will introduce a new IP in Blizzcon 20² is not an "accurate prediction", like what you're claiming the OP's predictions are.

"MoP will be a bad expansion" is an "accurate prediction" because the expansion turned out to be bad.

So I go back to what I wrote earlier:

But your opinion is fact, right? Your opinion trumps everyone else's, right? If you have the opinion that an expansion is shit, then it's objectively shit, and all those that do not agree with you are "denying reality", right?

You are admitting you're stating your opinions as fact. Again: your sample size of one does not make it a fact. Mists of Pandaria is widely regarded as a good expansion

You can say something is an accurate prediction after the fact. Not sure what your point is here. My logic does not say all predictions are accurate.

MoP predictions were inaccurate. MoP is widely regarded as one of the good expansions. And you cannot disregard the polls and threads I presented simply by saying "they do not count". Your opinion does not trump those polls and thread.

The people who voted in these polls are fans of Mists, yes. Still not a representation of anything other than that, though.

You're revealing more and more how little you know about polls. Are you claiming that the only people that voted in those polls are MoP fans? Is that it?

Also the opinion of statisticians.

Again: learn the difference between accurate predictions, and informed predictions.

Still, delusional.

Yes, we know you are.