BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[arkanon]

Guilds in MC gear are already doing enough DPS to down Patchwerk. I can do the math for you once I'm home if you're too lazy, takes about 5 minutes. By the time Naxx hits people can likely kill him in a 30 man raid.

Even 4 Horsemen will die week one thanks to the hit % trinket from ZG eliminating the need for a bunch of warriors with tier gear.

There is a thread floating around somewhere showing DPS vs patchwork, and it would seem out of the dedicated raiding base (so excluding non raiders) the majority of dps players are already at or above the patchwork requirement, with higher end players greatly exceeding it. I will try and find the post, it was quite interesting to see just how far some players have pushed it.

30 man seems very, very likely almost immediately.

[Occar]

There is a thread floating around somewhere showing DPS vs patchwork, and it would seem out of the dedicated raiding base (so excluding non raiders) the majority of dps players are already at or above the patchwork requirement, with higher end players greatly exceeding it. I will try and find the post, it was quite interesting to see just how far some players have pushed it.

30 man seems very, very likely almost immediately.

Yeah. They’ve really pushed their skill in pressing frostbolt and moving once or twice per fight. So much pushing. Such talent. Much impressed.

[Jazzhands]

Yeah. They’ve really pushed their skill in pressing frostbolt and moving once or twice per fight. So much pushing. Such talent. Much impressed.

It's more about the gear/debuff optimization than "rotation". A lot of people in Vanilla, especially casters, likely undervalued hit. With things like perfect bis and proper debuff lists everywhere it's a lot easier.

No one said what these guilds we're doing was hard or impressive. That's kind of the point.

[arkanon]

Yeah. They’ve really pushed their skill in pressing frostbolt and moving once or twice per fight. So much pushing. Such talent. Much impressed.

Oh the rotations are obviously a joke, what i mean is more to do with taking advantage of everything else - its not required, obviously, bosses dying in 30-40 seconds also makes a massive difference when comparing, but im just saying it surprised me how far they were able to take advantage of every little trick in the book.

I cant think of a single dps with an even remotely interesting rotation in vanilla, but i still enjoyed the game, and still enjoy classic for what it is - a brain-dead slog down memory lane.

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It's more about the gear/debuff optimization than "rotation". A lot of people in Vanilla, especially casters, likely undervalued hit. With things like perfect bis and proper debuff lists everywhere it's a lot easier.

No one said what these guilds we're doing was hard or impressive. That's kind of the point.

Well, beat me to it - this ^^

[Jazzhands]

There is a thread floating around somewhere showing DPS vs patchwork, and it would seem out of the dedicated raiding base (so excluding non raiders) the majority of dps players are already at or above the patchwork requirement, with higher end players greatly exceeding it. I will try and find the post, it was quite interesting to see just how far some players have pushed it.

30 man seems very, very likely almost immediately.

Yup. I did some napkin math on it personally after MC was out for like a month and people were already way over, could bring in a few Ret paladins and still down him. That was after a month of MC, based on logs of single target fights, accounting for burst CDs at the start ect.

That was only after a month of MC. Even now DPS has likely gone up a ton, and we still have a ton of massively better gear to come before Naxx. I fully expect sub 60 second Patchwerk with Naxx gear, if not even earlier depending on how lucky guilds get with drops.

[arkanon]

Yup. I did some napkin math on it personally after MC was out for like a month and people were already way over, could bring in a few Ret paladins and still down him. That was after a month of MC, based on logs of single target fights, accounting for burst CDs at the start ect.

That was only after a month of MC. Even now DPS has likely gone up a ton, and we still have a ton of massively better gear to come before Naxx. I fully expect sub 60 second Patchwerk with Naxx gear, if not even earlier depending on how lucky guilds get with drops.

Lold at the "bring a few ret" comment, that made my day. "i could beat patchwork with one arm tied behind my back, or even with a Ret in the grp!" *hushed gasps from the crowd*

[Nitros14]

Again, absolutely wrong. About all of it. Tens of thousands of players are doing raids at the correct ilvl, without first farming WQ and M+, or rocking up with gear 2 difficulties higher from the previous tier. You are refusing to accept that you are not the norm - you are the outlier - the overwhelming minority. You are not the average, not the mean, not the status quo.

That flies in the face of everything I've seen playing Legion and BFA but alright. And I forgot another source, usually the first couple of bosses of heroic are pathetically easy too (Champion of the Light and Taloc especially, not Sivarra though) so people get a bunch of pieces using their bonus rolls on those before going back to the last bosses on normal.

[Jazzhands]

Lold at the "bring a few ret" comment, that made my day. "i could beat patchwork with one arm tied behind my back, or even with a Ret in the grp!" *hushed gasps from the crowd*

It was when I was talking with someone about class viability, so I had to include the "most unviable" DPS to really drive my point home. People love to harp on Ret paladins for being shite DPS but in reality they easily exceed the minimum DPS required for every fight in the game, and especially excel once they hit Naxx. People just don't understand the definition of the word viable, or something.

[OriginalName]

Man this is pretentious as fuck. My guild clears MC in about an hour and 45min, and we haven't wiped once since we started raiding. We just don't bother ourselves with annoying stuff like pulling all the Gehennes trash at the same time, we just do pull after pull and kill everything and move on. It's fun to bullshit in voice chat or watch TV while mindlessly collecting loot for a couple hours.

I wasn't trying to be pretentious but I was trying to explain the context behind the fact that, your guild which clears in 1h45min won't be able to actively clear every classic raid to fulfill your entire rosters' need and/or desire for gear on a casual schedule, since you are content at clearing MC i.e by far the fastest and easiest raid in classic in a long time.

There is a thread floating around somewhere showing DPS vs patchwork, and it would seem out of the dedicated raiding base (so excluding non raiders) the majority of dps players are already at or above the patchwork requirement, with higher end players greatly exceeding it. I will try and find the post, it was quite interesting to see just how far some players have pushed it.

On private servers, even good guilds struggled to clear naxx in one night, it's an incredibly punishing raid, retail tourists and commentators are so wound up about bosses that they forget that 90% of a raid is the adds.

My guild spends a collective 6 minutes on all bosses in MC combined, but the remaining 30 min goes to adds and moving.

So, when you guys are talking about DPS checks as if that's the only thing that barred people on priv servers from doing naxx you're way off the mark, it's much more complicated.

[arkanon]

I wasn't trying to be pretentious but I was trying to explain the context behind the fact that, your guild which clears in 1h45min won't be able to actively clear every classic raid to fulfill your entire rosters' need and/or desire for gear on a casual schedule, since you are content at clearing MC i.e by far the fastest and easiest raid in classic in a long time.



On private servers, even good guilds struggled to clear naxx in one night, it's an incredibly punishing raid, retail tourists and commentators are so wound up about bosses that they forget that 90% of a raid is the adds.

My guild spends a collective 6 minutes on all bosses in MC combined, but the remaining 30 min goes to adds and moving.

So, when you guys are talking about DPS checks as if that's the only thing that barred people on priv servers from doing naxx you're way off the mark, it's much more complicated.

And you are so wound up you called the trash adds. And I have not mentioned private servers, because there is no need to - vanilla existed, and MC has shown, without a doubt, that classic is set at vanilla difficulty, not some inflated PS bullshit. Your incredibly punishing raid will be cleared hours after release, and be on farm week 2. Casuals will do what casuals do - casually stroll through an extremely simple raid without a care in the world.

I look forward to your (and others) excuses then.

[OriginalName]

And you are so wound up you called the trash adds. And I have not mentioned private servers, because there is no need to - vanilla existed, and MC has shown, without a doubt, that classic is set at vanilla difficulty, not some inflated PS bullshit. Your incredibly punishing raid will be cleared hours after release, and be on farm week 2. Casuals will do what casuals do - casually stroll through an extremely simple raid without a care in the world.

I look forward to your (and others) excuses then.

Yes, good guilds will farm the hardest content, that's without a doubt but good guilds on retail also clear the hardest content in 2 weeks then farm it. Casual guilds won't have naxx on farm in 2 weeks.

I'm not making an excuse, people like you have repeatedly underestimated the expertise of the private server community and playerbase when it comes to classic, what point are you trying to make here, since you're just repeating what I have said in this thread.

[arkanon]

Yes, good guilds will farm the hardest content, that's without a doubt but good guilds on retail also clear the hardest content in 2 weeks then farm it. Casual guilds won't have naxx on farm in 2 weeks.

I'm not making an excuse, people like you have repeatedly underestimated the expertise of the private server community and playerbase when it comes to classic, what point are you trying to make here, since you're just repeating what I have said in this thread.

The skill cap on vanilla and classic is dramatically lower than Retail, and the content sits around LFR difficulty, with the hardest vanilla bosses being around the easy/mid normal mode bosses in retail. The classes are 1-2 buttons at best, meaning what mechanics do exist can be front and center of your attention, making them even easier. Fights last roughly 1/10 or in extremes, 1/20 of a retail encounter, only further increasing the gap in difficulty. Spamming two buttons for 30 seconds without moving compared to what retail has on offer. Claiming they are even remotely similar is something only a very, very tiny percentage of the classic playerbase would even attempt to do, and it seems to only be those with strong agendas who refuse to deviate from their set narrative.

[OriginalName]

The skill cap on vanilla and classic is dramatically lower than Retail, and the content sits around LFR difficulty, with the hardest vanilla bosses being around the easy/mid normal mode bosses in retail. The classes are 1-2 buttons at best, meaning what mechanics do exist can be front and center of your attention, making them even easier. Fights last roughly 1/10 or in extremes, 1/20 of a retail encounter, only further increasing the gap in difficulty. Spamming two buttons for 30 seconds without moving compared to what retail has on offer. Claiming they are even remotely similar is something only a very, very tiny percentage of the classic playerbase would even attempt to do, and it seems to only be those with strong agendas who refuse to deviate from their set narrative.

Fight lengths are completely irrelevant to the conversation here, this is what I mean you tourists have no actual grasp of classic raiding.

A good guild in Naxxramas is going to set aside atleast 4 hours for the full raid, with probably 1 break (my guild does no breaks), when I was raiding in BFA, a full uldir clear was 2 hours (with breaks) once we stopped progressing.

A lot of classic raids has other demanding aspects, BWL for instance will demand a lot of gold from you, on Vael trash & lab packs in GFPPs (fire), while you can probably get away with not using them you'll also be increasing the run time of your raid by like 30-40 minutes since you will undoubtedly wipe because of accidents, there are a lot of demand for protection pots in the later raids on adds and just about every boss in naxx.

I'm not talking about narratives, I have been talking about the fact that, casual guilds won't even survive to Naxxramas and I don't doubt, even bad guilds being able to CLEAR Naxxramas, but to farm it and to actively put in the hours to also engage in other classic raids, no I don't think that's possible.

I think the greater majority of casual guilds are going to die around AQ, because by then the overall classic raiding scene is oversaturated, you might clear AQ but you will never have time to clear ZG, BWL, MC on the side, the people who will want to clear all these raids will leave and then your casual guild is hollowed out of all talent.

In conclusion, you don't seem to know what classic raiding entails, I don't think anyone should trust your assessment on classic raiding until you prove your chops.

[rogoth]

But hes correct and each will be cleared within the week of their release (and access).

personally i think that for naxx at least the 4 horsemen will be a cockblock and sapphiron with the frost resist requirements otherwise you get 1 shot by the entomb, but other than that yeah maybe everything else is done super early.

[Krille]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

I doubt people raided for 16-18 hours each day in Vanilla, and it was only available to NA players, and we all know how that usually goes.

Thats on top of everyone having 15 years of knowledge and understanding of game mechanics. If MC would be released today with no previous knowledge of the encounters its cleared in 1 day by Method, 0 doubt. Vanilla might have been hard for people that had played the game for months, not even comparable to the modern game, LFR is the closest comparison.

[arkanon]

I doubt people raided for 16-18 hours each day in Vanilla, and it was only available to NA players, and we all know how that usually goes.

Thats on top of everyone having 15 years of knowledge and understanding of game mechanics. If MC would be released today with no previous knowledge of the encounters its cleared in 1 day by Method, 0 doubt. Vanilla might have been hard for people that had played the game for months, not even comparable to the modern game, LFR is the closest comparison.

You forget the fact it says "from release" which for SOME raids, was from LAUNCH DAY (including leveling and preparing)

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Fight lengths are completely irrelevant to the conversation here, this is what I mean you tourists have no actual grasp of classic raiding.

A good guild in Naxxramas is going to set aside atleast 4 hours for the full raid, with probably 1 break (my guild does no breaks), when I was raiding in BFA, a full uldir clear was 2 hours (with breaks) once we stopped progressing.

A lot of classic raids has other demanding aspects, BWL for instance will demand a lot of gold from you, on Vael trash & lab packs in GFPPs (fire), while you can probably get away with not using them you'll also be increasing the run time of your raid by like 30-40 minutes since you will undoubtedly wipe because of accidents, there are a lot of demand for protection pots in the later raids on adds and just about every boss in naxx.

I'm not talking about narratives, I have been talking about the fact that, casual guilds won't even survive to Naxxramas and I don't doubt, even bad guilds being able to CLEAR Naxxramas, but to farm it and to actively put in the hours to also engage in other classic raids, no I don't think that's possible.

I think the greater majority of casual guilds are going to die around AQ, because by then the overall classic raiding scene is oversaturated, you might clear AQ but you will never have time to clear ZG, BWL, MC on the side, the people who will want to clear all these raids will leave and then your casual guild is hollowed out of all talent.

In conclusion, you don't seem to know what classic raiding entails, I don't think anyone should trust your assessment on classic raiding until you prove your chops.

See this is the sort of excuses i expected "Fight lengths are completely irrelevant to the conversation here" < this is absolute bullshit, it is EXTREMELY retentive, as maintaining a 1-2 button rotation while managing 1-2 meaningful mechanics cannot and should not be compared in difficulty to 10+ minute slogs which require higher concentration and management of a greatly increased number of mechanics.

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even bad guilds being able to CLEAR Naxxramas

I am glad we agree.

[Spacewalrus2010]

Who might that be?

I haven't heard from those people since MC got completely wrecked week1. You'd almost think OPs thread is meaningless because a lesson was already learned.

Probably the same people. Who knows. You are talking about the internet here. It's very rare for someone to simply state "Lesson learned, I was wrong."

And that goes for both sides ofc.

[OriginalName]

See this is the sort of excuses i expected "Fight lengths are completely irrelevant to the conversation here" < this is absolute bullshit, it is EXTREMELY retentive, as maintaining a 1-2 button rotation while managing 1-2 meaningful mechanics cannot and should not be compared in difficulty to 10+ minute slogs which require higher concentration and management of a greatly increased number of mechanics.

I haven't once said that the raids themselves aren't easy, why are you repeatedly arguing a strawman here, do you have no other retort?

Is AQ+ punishing? Yes. Will casuals be able to clear AQ+? Yes. Will casuals be able to farm AQ+? Harder to say. Will casuals be able to farm AQ+ and do other content? Absolutely not. Is other content incredibly important for the longevity of your guild? Yes.

[arkanon]

I haven't once said that the raids themselves aren't easy

Cool, thats literally the subject of all my posts, and this thread itself. So maybe you took a wrong tern somewhere?

[OriginalName]

Cool, thats literally the subject of all my posts, and this thread itself. So maybe you took a wrong tern somewhere?

For starters, your perspective on bosses is completely off left field, the fight lengths and boss difficulty is a very small part of classic raids, also using MC as a platform to argue that the rest of classic will be a walkover is like using highmaul or emerald nightmare to gauge the rest of WoD or Legion's difficulty.

Also, the difficulty of classic raids aren't in how hard the bosses are, which I have repeatedly argued without refutation from your end.