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  1. #1001
    The game being generally shitty right now, classic coming out, and the lack of any skips in this raid were absolutely brutal on the Mythic raid scene this tier. Difficulty was not a problem imo.

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    This is rather reason why mythic guilds lossing players than any stupid post about some made up grind. Gear resets every patch = why bother to get mythic gear, I can see content in LFR = why bother do mythic, Mythic+ is far easyer and rewards same or better gear = why bother with mythic, I buy token for 20 dollars, get boosted and get all rewards without any effort = why bother with mythic. It rather raiding become super unrewarding experience and those few what does mythic force themself to do it just for challenge but thats for many people super weak motivation to actualy push mythic.

    Maybe it's just me...but isn't the whole gearing (including during the mythic raid itself) is...to kill the end boss? Not gearing for the sake of "having the bestest of the bestest gear".

    Also, I'm far from hardcore player but I would NEVER even consider buying a boost, even if it was just 20$ (and it isn't). Raiding is rising up to the challenge, what's the point of letting other people to carry you? (False) braggin rights? Gear?

    I'm not naive. I know lots of players buy boosts early in orther to get gear and AoTC faster for various reasons (better chance of pugging). Not for me, a filthy casual, I prefer dying beautifull than living ugly.

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Then you're not the average guild. Some doesn't mean you represent the average. Your average raider nor has the means nor wants to be finished in a week or two.

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    This. Why are we still hanging on to having servers for romantic notions of "server identity" when we can't get people to fill our fixed 20m raids.
    Well blizz prob makes a killing on those transfers. They are like £15 each I think.

  4. #1004
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    This. Why are we still hanging on to having servers for romantic notions of "server identity" when we can't get people to fill our fixed 20m raids.
    It's an issue I had when I was raiding at my peak and was a top 30-50 US guild: the server population eventually couldn't support our guild despite constantly recruiting, and the guild had to eventually end because we couldn't get people to transfer to our server.

    People want to know why M+ shot up as an insanely popularly form of end-game? It's partly the gear, but for your average player it's the accessibility. M+ does not have weekly lockouts, and more importantly it's cross-server. Mythic raiding is the only WoW activity that's strictly server-only for an extended period of time, and by the time it becomes cross-server the guilds on medium/low pop servers (aka, almost all the servers) who are having issues with maintaining or attracting a roster are already bored from spam-running heroic and burned out from raiding mythic with potentially sub-par people because you don't have a choice.

    The retort is always "Well, just server transfer!", but that's a weak argument in itself at this point. Why should people pay extra money so they can feasibly play certain content in the game if they happened to roll on the "wrong" server or their server has dwindled since they started playing? In this day and age, it makes zero sense to try to hold onto ideals that died a long time ago in WoW and barely anyone cares about in the player base.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I feel that pain, I PM'd around 60-70 healers who were looking for a guild before I could find one to trial for our mythic guild. Game is in such a sorry ass state right now for mythic raiding. With Azsahra having like the 2nd lowest completion rate
    But Azshara doesn't have an unusual completion rate for the period of the expansion it is in. That's probably why we are not seeing more nerfs. It's been killed by more guilds than previous expansion's equivalents - KJ & Blackhand.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    But Azshara doesn't have an unusual completion rate for the period of the expansion it is in. That's probably why we are not seeing more nerfs. It's been killed by more guilds than previous expansion's equivalents - KJ & Blackhand.
    Blackhand should be compared to gul’dan; azshara came out after almost a year of BFA
    Cheerful lack of self-preservation

  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    But Azshara doesn't have an unusual completion rate for the period of the expansion it is in. That's probably why we are not seeing more nerfs. It's been killed by more guilds than previous expansion's equivalents - KJ & Blackhand.
    Honestly Azshara isn't even the hardest boss, Za'Qul is the true last boss of this patch imo. if you can get 7/8 you can easily go 8/8

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Well blizz prob makes a killing on those transfers. They are like £15 each I think.
    And that's the problem, if my guild wants to be able to "play the game" we have to either spend millions of gold transferring or hundreds of dollars.

    During the Blizzcon QA someone asked about realm population and mythic raiding and Ion responded with "we will be discussing this internally next week" so I really hope they do something. I don't really understand why they can't just connect us to a bigger realm.

  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    But Azshara doesn't have an unusual completion rate for the period of the expansion it is in. That's probably why we are not seeing more nerfs. It's been killed by more guilds than previous expansion's equivalents - KJ & Blackhand.
    And KJ was so very similar to the Azshara fight in the way it's just not fun and frustratingly demands perfection. I loved Jaina progression and the kill. I did not have fun on Azshara at all. It was just repetition with horrible intermissions that have nothing to do with class or player skill.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Honestly Azshara isn't even the hardest boss, Za'Qul is the true last boss of this patch imo. if you can get 7/8 you can easily go 8/8
    Thats now cause azshara is on a wheelchair, with the stop dps strat for zaqul hes a meme unless your delirium dps are monkeys.

  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Thats now cause azshara is on a wheelchair, with the stop dps strat for zaqul hes a meme unless your delirium dps are monkeys.
    I indeed raid with monkeys :/

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by shyguybman View Post
    And that's the problem, if my guild wants to be able to "play the game" we have to either spend millions of gold transferring or hundreds of dollars.

    During the Blizzcon QA someone asked about realm population and mythic raiding and Ion responded with "we will be discussing this internally next week" so I really hope they do something. I don't really understand why they can't just connect us to a bigger realm.
    Oh yea between transfers and faction changes, I have spent nearly £300 just finding a guild, and then it dying out. I personally hate this closed server bull. It’s 2020, mega server tech exists.

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
    It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

    We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

    From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

    Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

    We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
    I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.
    Sounds like you're more of a heroic guild. If you recruit a few better players in key spots I'm positive you'll kill Mythic Azshara.

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Honestly Azshara isn't even the hardest boss, Za'Qul is the true last boss of this patch imo. if you can get 7/8 you can easily go 8/8
    Lmao what. Queen is leaps and bounds harder than za'qul. My guild wiped less on za'qul than ashvane/orgo/QC. za'qul is an absolute joke of a boss.

    Queen isn't that bad since the nerf, but she's a hell of a lot worse than za'qul.
    Last edited by asil; 2020-01-06 at 04:58 PM.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I indeed raid with monkeys :/
    If you wipe on zaqul yeah, most of the time the only ones to blame are the delirium dps not doing their job on killing the echo and/or dying early on.

  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    If you wipe on zaqul yeah, most of the time the only ones to blame are the delirium dps not doing their job on killing the echo and/or dying early on.
    Delirium, and tentacles. Anyone who dies to tentacles just kills my soul a little inside

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by dottdog View Post
    And KJ was so very similar to the Azshara fight in the way it's just not fun and frustratingly demands perfection. I loved Jaina progression and the kill. I did not have fun on Azshara at all. It was just repetition with horrible intermissions that have nothing to do with class or player skill.
    Idk if I'd say the fight demands perfection anymore. We had like a 12min kill one week where a decent number of people died in p3. The nerfs hit p4 super hard.

    We're skipping the 2nd set of debuffs in p2 without lust and 4 healers currently.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by shyguybman View Post
    My guild decided to stop raiding until 8.3 after we got to Za'qul in October due to player burnout and recruiting being near impossible on a low pop server. I'm crossing my fingers they do something about these low pop realms and connect us to bigger ones because it is brutal.

    As far as tuning goes, BFA was our first time raiding on the hardest difficulty in a few expansions and we did get CE Jaina but I think that nearly killed the guild then because wiping to a boss 350 times isn't appealing.
    The burnout is real these last two tiers. I feel you. Recruitment is just as hard on our low pop RP server, although I still manage to get new raiders. Just gotta be persistent, comb through wowprogress and regularly throw up a recruitment ad in the LFG tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftenwrongsoong View Post
    Sounds like you're more of a heroic guild. If you recruit a few better players in key spots I'm positive you'll kill Mythic Azshara.
    What's up with some people unable to grasp the concept of guilds raiding below CE and above heroic?
    One guy in here was so confused, he thought I was asking for a new difficulty level. That's some inflexible thinking.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    The only thing that bothers me is that people that say stuff like "I just want to log on, go into raid and thats it" but at the same time want to get Cutting Edge. If you're in a guild that clears all mythic content at a decent pace, making it easier will kill the game for them too.

    So when the argument is that you need the "sub 1000 ranked guilds to feed the top 1000 guilds with players", I find myself not agreeing to any of that logic. This idea that a lot of sub 1000 players constantly stream into the top 1000 is just a thought the OP had. My personal anecdotal experience is that most of the players in top 500 switch guilds inbetween them. Guilds die, new guilds are created but the players remain the same.

    EP just had 5 semi-difficult bosses instead of only having 2 difficult end bosses. Azshara isnt difficult, it wasnt before all these nerfs (unless you're a world first guild) and its a joke now. We have more problems with Zaqul on reclears because there's more personal responsibility. Azshara is legit only slightly difficult in P3, the rest of the fight is a joke.

    I just want to play the game without having to wait 3-4 months for content, might as well quit if that keeps being the case. And i think a lot of other mythic raiders feel the same. Make it easier and the game becomes a joke all-in-all. The hardest difficulty is nothing compared to some other games hardmodes.
    There is literally nothing wrong with raid logging and when it was possible blizzard had so many more subs it is isn't even funny. Stuff like forging and now corrupted gear forces you to play a ton outside of raid and it kind of sucks imo. I've seen so many people burn out because of all the crap you have to do outside of raid. It also kills alting hard. The whole idea of unending grinds are awful and need to die but blizz is treating a subscription game like a mobile game so that's unfortunately unlikely and they will keep bleeding subs as a result. The raids don't need to be made easier but the amount of crap that needs to be done outside raids needs to be dropped drastically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    The grind is there because the raidlogging model doesn't work, as shown in WoD. Blame the shitty community, it's not some conspiracy.
    No the problem with WoD is they chopped everything including classes in half. Also the removal of flight made the few chores left incredibly annoying to do and still spread out around the world. Unending grinds don't make a game good they do the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    endgame has 1 ridiculous problem atm - one that blizzard clearly doesnt know how to solve.

    after 15 years blizzard has and it will be my rough estimate arund 5-10k of extremly well skilled players - hell i wont be afraid to call them "overskilled" players - people who are extremly vocal on all possible forums and medias and who they cannot "shut up"

    those are people who are ridiculiing everyone else with stupid comments like "git gud" etc

    those people are also main reason why mythic is tuned that high and is way out of reach of anyone "average" who ever tries.

    imo blizzard made mistake few years ago - instead introducing mythic they should have just made a hard cut off - in sense of "if you are that good its ok if you clear hardest mode in a week and have nothing to do" similiar thing should have had been done with mythic + - highest difficulties aka 10+ should have been aviable only on separate turnament realms so they dont influence majority of game.

    now its just to late - most of "weaker" raiders lready quit over last 5-7 years and now there is no going back .

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    thats a lie. simming didnt became widely popular and widely used untill like mid mop. hell i rememeb mop as a time when you still had no problem to get into mythic guilds capable of clearing a lot of bosses in hardest difficulty (1/2-3/4) without writing stupid application , making sims etc etc.

    before that only the best of the best guilds on servers used it. nowadays everything is simmed including lfr -_-
    They didn't introduce mythic they just made easy modes of the actual raids. Mythic wasn't an upscale all other modes under it were a downscale. Mythic is the boss tuned as it's meant to be played while all other modes have flex and much looser requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    Please explain to a PVP and M+'er why mythic raiding is so difficult?

    - It's a scripted fight, so it does the same thing every time over and over and over again.
    - It's been nerfed repeatedly.
    - Method (among other guilds) did it with what- 100 less ilevels, 1-2 less minor essences, 1-2 less ranks of said essences, and considerably less stam due to neck level? This was pre-nerf as well.

    I would think anyone raiding Mythic difficulty could handle the mechanics, so what about it is still tricking people?
    10 ilvls less max you forget how strong benthic gear is and most of them had their full essence slots. Ranks as well there was enough to time to fully grind everything except maybe rank 3 of the raid essence just due to number of boss kills needed. They also bought tons of boes with sockets. Due to benthic there was a far lesser difference gear wise than there usually is for the first few kills and those that come weeks later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    I think theres a lot of people in this thread that havent played the game recently. It has become this false narrative echo chamber that the grind is whats killing the game or excluding people from raiding.

    8.2 introduced essences, which was FUN to get because they were also fun to use. Thats about the only thing you had to play the game to get. AP is the biggest scapegoat in this game, neck level doesnt matter unless you're pushing high ranks.

    Can these low tier sub 2500 several days a week raiders just realize they are not reaching higher because they are bad at the game. Grasp the harsh truth, good news is that you can get better if you care, just like in any game ever. But if you're going to not play the game and then complain about not finishing raid tiers you can and should probably just rip the bandaid and quit.
    Essences dropped me from literally playing every class all the way down to one for a long time I've now added a second and third since I only have to get to revered now once patch drops. I was having fun doing at least a 10 on every character but the 65 add and essences made me say hell no to continuing that. Essences are awful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Your average guild used to raid the whole tier, there was never a "done" thing. This concept is only a thing for people who heard this form someone saying it in relation to titanforging and just repeated it until it made sense to them, without actually making sense.
    Most people, you'd be surprised, actually don't want to be done in a couple weeks and take a break. That's only your high end guilds who basically do this like a job. The rest are just sheep repeating shit because it was hammered into their heads. Like people doing heroic only and complaining they can't stand the grind anymore and that they can't be done (as if they ever would, even without the grind or TF).
    Nah we would get done with characters then we would gear up anyones alt who was thinking about switching or might be useful next tier we would also do sells. This forging stuff makes even top 50ish guild run at least 2 raids instead of just one it's annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    Seems to me there is slightly less grinding involved in Eternal Palace than the previous BFA tiers where me and many others got burnt out. Especially starting Uldir was a massive AP, rep, islands, warfronts, M+ and WQ grind. Though some friends told me the grind was terrible for Eternal Palace as well.

    I remember grinding hours and hours of AP to remain competitive (not having azerite traits active felt terrible). Considering 65 neck unlocks a 2nd minor essence, I'd guess it was expected to grind that asap during progress. Not sure how bad this grind was during progression but I got to 60 without grinding it like I had to previously. Maybe because the tier is at the end...

    The Benthic gear seems like a good catchup system but should have included all slots. The grind for this gear isnt so bad, just a few dailies for some manapearls. I managed to get full benthic with 200 pearls to spend in one week. I don't understand the hate towards this system and it aint grindy at all.

    Mechagon rep and essence grinding is pure shit though. And as mentioned I also feel the loot from raids in general is too insignificant. There is no point to normal/heroic raids with M+ around. Imho M+ should not reward better loot than heroic raids and normal mode should be removed entirely (what purpose does it have? There is almost no groups for this.mode). Or they need to make loot from raids a lot more attractive or worthwile.
    You managed to get full socketed benthic in all 4 slots in a week with a single character? Both Belts the bracers gloves and boots?

  20. #1020
    To be honest, it should stay like this. Just look at FF14, the hardest content is ultimate, which only the most diehard people can do it, the rest does savage and even that is hard in the later bosses. I myself have never done ultimate because I'm always stuck at the fourth boss and I dont mond this at all.

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