Are We Getting Back Tier Sets in Shadowlands?

[kaminaris]

Or we can just get both back. Tiers were good. Felt amazing to complete one, and we need to stop taking the RPG out of the MMORPG. Why they keep trying to recreate the wheel is beyond me.

Or we can have another iteration of azerite gear which is miles better than tier sets ever was and never go back to bad design tier sets was. Raid or die. Needless to say I am fine with having no tier sets and no azerite-like gear as long as its not tier sets.

Oh and removing tier sets is rather putting back RPG in MMORPG than taking it out since you can get upgrade to almost all gear slots not minus 4 gear slots.

[Protean]

I implemented rotations since pandaria and know which tier set truly altered rotations.

You don't need to believe my claim you can check yourself in simcraft APLs:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...a-dev/profiles
then check how much it changed in legion by switching to another branch ex legion-dev

One of examples was hunter MM T20. But that was the only one in legion. Only one game changing set in entire legion for all hunter specializations. So out of 3 specializations and 3 raid tier only once hunter had altered rotation. 1 out of 9.

Other classes have it similar, sometimes 2 out of 9, sometimes zero out of 9 which equals to 90% of flat damage upgrades.

Biggest complaints about tier sets that it was rollercoaster bingo card. One time you got amazing tier set like hunter T18 and next time you got garbage.
This is why blizzard prefers to play it safe now. And I don't blame them.

Either you weren't good at it or you're only talking about legion.

Of course the tier bonuses in legion were flat, legendaries were the tier bonuses of that expansion. You complain about flat damage upgrades but seem to not grasp that they themselves can change a rotation. Just looking over Tier 12 I see druid, shaman, warrior and shadow priest had rotation-altering set bonuses. That's already far more than your claimed 5-10% of classes. Especially because there were less classes so a bigger portion. And that's just looking at dps I knew about.

- - - Updated - - -

Or we can have another iteration of azerite gear which is miles better than tier sets ever was and never go back to bad design tier sets was. Raid or die. Needless to say I am fine with having no tier sets and no azerite-like gear as long as its not tier sets.

Oh and removing tier sets is rather putting back RPG in MMORPG than taking it out since you can get upgrade to almost all gear slots not minus 4 gear slots.

Farming AP to equip gear I've already killed mythic bosses to get is really shitty design.

[kaminaris]

Either you weren't good at it or you're only talking about legion.

Of course the tier bonuses in legion were flat, legendaries were the tier bonuses of that expansion. You complain about flat damage upgrades but seem to not grasp that they themselves can change a rotation. Just looking over Tier 12 I see druid, shaman, warrior and shadow priest had rotation-altering set bonuses. That's already far more than your claimed 5-10% of classes. Especially because there were less classes so a bigger portion. And that's just looking at dps I knew about.

- - - Updated - - -



Farming AP to equip gear I've already killed mythic bosses to get is really shitty design.

Oh boy the denial...

T18: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_18
DK: None
Druid: Resto one so 1 out of 4
Hunter: Arguably MM but that making Aimed shot instant did not truly change your gameplay, just made it really fast
Mage: None
Monk: None
Pala: None
Priest: None
Rog: None
Shaman: None
Warlock: None
Warior: None

T17: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_17
DK: None
Druid: Maybe Resto to cast double healing touch
Hunter: None
Mage: None
Monk: None
Pala: None
Priest: None
Rog: None
Shaman: None
Warlock: Demo a little, random transformation into demon guess it counts
Warior: None

Shall we go on?

And by the way you always could equip higher level azerite, in worst case you couldn not unlock last 2 rings (defensive and ilvl boost) if you didn't even do emissaries OR 3 islands a week.

[Protean]

Oh boy the denial...

T18: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_18
DK: None
Druid: Resto one so 1 out of 4
Hunter: Arguably MM but that making Aimed shot instant did not truly change your gameplay, just made it really fast
Mage: None
Monk: None
Pala: None
Priest: None
Rog: None
Shaman: None
Warlock: None
Warior: None

T17: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_17
DK: None
Druid: Maybe Resto to cast double healing touch
Hunter: None
Mage: None
Monk: None
Pala: None
Priest: None
Rog: None
Shaman: None
Warlock: Demo a little, random transformation into demon guess it counts
Warior: None

Shall we go on?

And by the way you always could equip higher level azerite, in worst case you couldn not unlock last 2 rings (defensive and ilvl boost) if you didn't even do emissaries OR 3 islands a week.

How about you first be right?
T18 4piece Feral: OOC now generates energy instead of spending it. How is it not a rotational change that you have to keep your energy levels lower than before equipping?

I'm not going to bother going through every item but clearly we have different definitions of changes to rotation.

Did you even look at the T18 sub rogue? WHAT?

[kaminaris]

How about you first be right?
T18 4piece Feral: OOC now generates energy instead of spending it. How is it not a rotational change that you have to keep your energy levels lower than before equipping?

I'm not going to bother going through every item but clearly we have different definitions of changes to rotation.

Did you even look at the T18 sub rogue? WHAT?

Sure you are right, changing spender to generator is indeed rotation change, still doesn't affect the result.
It is still 3 out of 34 = 91% of tiers of T18 did not change rotation. Even if you find one more = 88%

That was the the average of tier sets at least since MoP. So where is that majority you spoke about?

[Kralljin]

I'm not going to bother going through every item but clearly we have different definitions of changes to rotation.

Mate, the guy doesn't look at half of the set bonuses and generally judges any bonus in the favour of his argument.

Take for example the Elemental T18 2pc:

(2) Set (Elemental): Your Earth Shock has a 10% chance not to consume any Lightning Shield charges and to have its cooldown instantly reset.

Is it something that changes your priority?
Hell no, but getting those back to back procs and being able to spam your finisher was damn statisfying.
Yet he doesn't count that as change, despite the fact that this set bonus was cool as hell.

Or take the Ele T17 4pc:
(4) Set (Elemental): When you consume more than 12 Lightning Shield charges with Fulmination, you automatically gain Lava Surge.

Because of how shocks worked (shared cd) you were using Frost shock over Earth shock as filler during movement if you didn't happen to have 12 Lightning Shield charges.
If you used Earth shock below 12 Charges, you're basically wasting those as the set bonus doesn't trigger.
Does he count it? Nope.

That's just me talking as Elemental, you could probably ask any person that has played a variety of specs they'd find faults in this list.

[kaminaris]

Mate, the guy doesn't look at half of the set bonuses and generally judges any bonus in the favour of his argument.

Take for example the Elemental T18 2pc:

(2) Set (Elemental): Your Earth Shock has a 10% chance not to consume any Lightning Shield charges and to have its cooldown instantly reset.

Is it something that changes your priority?
Hell no, but getting those back to back procs and being able to spam your finisher was damn statisfying.
Yet he doesn't count that as change, despite the fact that this set bonus was cool as hell.

Of course it does not change your gameplay, it just makes you spam buttons faster and thus deal more damage.

Or take the Ele T17 4pc:
(4) Set (Elemental): When you consume more than 12 Lightning Shield charges with Fulmination, you automatically gain Lava Surge.

Because of how shocks worked (shared cd) you were using Frost shock over Earth shock as filler during movement if you didn't happen to have 12 Lightning Shield charges.
If you used Earth shock below 12 Charges, you're basically wasting those as the set bonus doesn't trigger.
Does he count it? Nope.

Nope it doesn't. I still have that tier set on my shaman. It doesn't affect your fundamental core rotation.

Going with that your logic every single azerite trait affects your rotation since when you spam button A you trigger something that has cool animation and does damage.

Going with your logic, loyal to the end affects entire raid rotation since you let your shammys die and burst boss in 1 minute:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=6&type=deaths

[Kralljin]

Of course it does not change your gameplay, it just makes you spam buttons faster and thus deal more damage.

And? You need to react to a given proc, you see big numbers, it's fun.

Nope it doesn't. I still have that tier set on my shaman. It doesn't affect your fundamental core rotation.

That set bonus no longer works the same way because of changes made to the Elemental.
Previously, you could press ES whenever you wanted, now its cost is set to 60, so that entire limitation is neutered.

If you were moving and pressed ES with 6 Charges, your set bonus wouldn't trigger, so you would use Frost shock instead because it didn't consume LS charges and thus you could continue to work towards 12 Charges in order to trigger that bonus.
Leaving aside that you wouldn't want to trigger that bonus if Lava burst is already off CD.

Blizzard essentially made that bonus "baseline" in a manner of speaking with Legion.

Going with that your logic every single azerite trait affects your rotation since when you spam button A you trigger something that has cool animation and does damage.

Arguments like these just show that you still don't get it.
If a set bonus allows you to occasionally spam your most powerful ability, something you could previously never do, that is what a lot of people see as a positive effect on their gameplay.

That is the crucial difference, it's not just a passive bonus to some secondary stat, you get a proc, react accordingly and are awarded with additional damage.

Loyal to the end could be an interesting effect, but the price to trigger it is far too high to be useable in progression, reincarnation has a 30min CD, doesn't reset after pull.
If the effect could be triggered that doesn't involve someone dying (or wasting a major CD), that might actually be an interesting bonus, but due to this steep limitation, it only sees actual usage to pad meters, which isn't a very common activity.

It however would still be just a passive damage increase, rather than something people individually has to react to.

[matrix123mko]

They said that the next raid won't have tier set but I guess there will be in 9.2.

[kaminaris]

And? You need to react to a given proc, you see big numbers, it's fun.

Same way you react to couple of azerite traits. Same way you react to class passives and trinkets. Nothing of value was lost.

That set bonus no longer works the same way because of changes made to the Elemental.
Previously, you could press ES whenever you wanted, now its cost is set to 60, so that entire limitation is neutered.

If you were moving and pressed ES with 6 Charges, your set bonus wouldn't trigger, so you would use Frost shock instead because it didn't consume LS charges and thus you could continue to work towards 12 Charges in order to trigger that bonus.
Leaving aside that you wouldn't want to trigger that bonus if Lava burst is already off CD.

Blizzard essentially made that bonus "baseline" in a manner of speaking with Legion.

Meaning I did play shaman back then, did good amount of alt runs with shammy.

Arguments like these just show that you still don't get it.
If a set bonus allows you to occasionally spam your most powerful ability, something you could previously never do, that is what a lot of people see as a positive effect on their gameplay.

That is the crucial difference, it's not just a passive bonus to some secondary stat, you get a proc, react accordingly and are awarded with additional damage.

Loyal to the end could be an interesting effect, but the price to trigger it is far too high to be useable in progression, reincarnation has a 30min CD, doesn't reset after pull.
If the effect could be triggered that doesn't involve someone dying, that might actually be an interesting bonus, but due to this steep limitation, it only sees actual usage to pad meters, which isn't a very common activity.

Its not me who doesn't get it. Its you who is delusional.
Yes there were some broken tier sets back then, like hunter MM T18 which was super fun to play since it made aimed shot instant.
BUT that was also their gigantic flaw, cause if you like some specific tier set you never had anything like it afterwards.
And that it was unavailable for majority of casual players

And it is true that vast majority of tier sets were boring and bland. You can tell that just by looking at description.

[Kralljin]

Meaning I did play shaman back then, did good amount of alt runs with shammy.

Then you were playing incorrectly.

Its not me who doesn't get it. Its you who is delusional.

No, not really.
The fact that you even pull a strawman and somehow put an actual good set bonus on the same level as Loyal to the end, is just a weak argument.

And it is true that vast majority of tier sets were boring and bland.

They varied, just like a lot of Azerite traits are terrible.
But the difference is, they didn't carry the same design restriction as Azerite traits, else wise we would have received a lot more decent traits.

BUT that was also their gigantic flaw, cause if you like some specific tier set you never had anything like it afterwards.

"Most set bonuses are terrible"
"And if they are good, then they're still bad because you replace them"

Pick one argument, you can't have both, if you criticize Tier sets for their bland design, you can't turn around and then criticize them if they make good ones.

And that it was unavailable for majority of casual players

For gods sake, i am so sick and tired for reading this argument.
Give raids the token back, put a vendor in that sells the token for [M+ currency].

Boom, problem solved.

[kaminaris]

Then you were playing incorrectly.

No, I am rotation addon author, I know how classes should be played, I can read and understand simcraft APLs.

No, not really.
The fact that you even pull a strawman and somehow put an actual good set bonus on the same level as Loyal to the end, is just a weak argument.

Yes really, no strawman was even made. It is just common for people to be delusional because their memory is bad.

They varied, just like a lot of Azerite traits are terrible.
But the difference is, they didn't carry the same design restriction as Azerite traits, else wise we would have received a lot more decent traits.

No they did not "vary". They just sucked.

"Most set bonuses are terrible"
"And if they are good, then they're still bad because you replace them"

Pick one argument, you can't have both, if you criticize Tier sets for their bland design, you can't turn around and then criticize them if they make good ones.

Do you understand you just confirmed it? You don't need to pick one argument. Because it is ONE argument. IF you won in blizzard bingo lottery on tier set bonuses, next tier it was gone. And most of time time you just lost.

For gods sake, i am so sick and tired for reading this argument.
Give raids the token back, put a vendor in that sells the token for [M+ currency].

Boom, problem solved.

One problem, and the rest? Locking gear slots, loosing on bingo lottery?
Nope. Tier sets just doesn't work.

[Doffen]

No, I am rotation addon author, I know how classes should be played, I can read and understand simcraft APLs.

What addon are you author of?

[Kralljin]

No, I am rotation addon author, I know how classes should be played, I can read and understand simcraft APLs.

And that somehow makes you immune to mistakes?

Like mate, read through the set bonus and keep in mind how Lightning Shield Charges, Earth shock and shock cd's worked in WoD, you can make a fool or yourself or just admit that you're wrong.
If you mindlessly pressed ES or had an empty GCD during movement, you were just doing it wrong.

Do you understand you just confirmed it? You don't need to pick one argument. Because it is ONE argument.

"if Blizzard designs bad stuff, i'm mad, if they design good stuff, i'm mad that i'm losing it" - In a game where Rental power becomes ever more relevant.

If you think you'd keep all the Azerite bonuses that currently exist (if they had actually continued the system), you're delusional.
I'd rather decent stuff from time to time, than halfbaked shit the entire time.

IF you won in blizzard bingo lottery on tier set bonuses

The first time was feeling like i was playing lottery in WoW was in fact BfA, where you had to literally gamble for the right Azerite pieces without having to wait 10 weeks.
Matter of fact, still waiting for Azerite traits that i actually like, so yeah, if you consider "bad design" as "lottery" then playing WoW in itself is playing lottery because there is no insurance that the game itself is actually good.
because that is by your standards already gambling.

It simply hasn't happened that Blizzard designed 6+ amazing traits that are engaging and interesting for all 36 specializations.
It's simply easier to design one good bonus rather than 6.

You can now "BUT THEY WEREN'T!" and i quite frankly don't have the nerve to further refute this than: That's just your opinion.
You can further shit on anyone that doesn't share your hot love for the Azerite system, but that's just how it is.

One problem, and the rest?

So we're talking here about people even below LFR / Low M+ keys?
I think these people aren't even interested in gameplay anymore, so that's moot.

By the way, Set bonuses were even obtainable in LFR, in which anyone can participate.

loosing on bingo lottery?

You mean the current one?

[FelPlague]

Ok i am gunna say it, yall are gunna hate me but its the truth.





Azerite is teir sets but better.



When you look at azerite traits, and you look at tier sets, they are nearly identicle, many of the teir sets from vanilla to tbc were literallty just "X extra stat" and "Y ability does Z extra damage" and so on so forth.
it wasnt until cata we started seeing set bonuses that were special, and interacted with your playstyle, and looking at these, its hard to tell them apart from azerite traits.

if we were in person i would do a quiz "which is which!" but i dont know you people, and you could easily just google and go "lol i proved you wrong" or know the classes.

but if you look at them, and compare, it is obvious.

i will do one, ONE to show.

Reduce the cooldown of your infernal by 10%
or
Reduce the cooldown of your infernal by 15 seconds, and increases the damage of your chaos bolts.
Which is a tier set, which is an azerite trait?

1 more but wild round

Immolate deals 10% more damage

chaos bolt does 10% more damage

Chaos bolt deals more damage, and has a 25% chance to make your next incinerate instant



Azerite gear is better because it does not force you to 1 specific set per patch, you have many to pick from at all times, and each peice has multiple choices, instead of "This teir you will be using this set, and that will make your playstyle this"

Now yes, you may say "but azerite BIS means we dont choose anyways!" yes, but thats only if you wanna be BIS.
atleast with azerite we have the choice, we can choose to use the set we like, or the set that is BIS. while with tier sets its YOU ARE PLAYING THIS.



i do want class apperance sets back, as in what teir sets gave us, with "here is the warlock set" but i think teir sets, are trash compared to azerite.

[Seuchentiffy]

Azerite gear is better because it does not force you to 1 specific set per patch, you have many to pick from at all times, and each peice has multiple choices, instead of "This teir you will be using this set, and that will make your playstyle this"

Im Sorry what? since the Start of BFA how often did you change your traits after you knew which is BiS for you? How many Traits are there you want?

1-2? Maybe 3 ? Just looking at my Boomkin which i played at the Start of the Expansion then didnt touch it for over a Year!!!! oh look same old Traits still BiS with 1 Addition you want in 1 Slot, man what great Choices i have holy cow. And thats just the First and Second Ring, after that same old shit since the Start of this dumpster Fire

"i do want class apperance sets back, as in what teir sets gave us, with "here is the warlock set" but i think teir sets, are trash compared to azerite."

I could agree with that because the did do some really amazing looking Sets.

Azerite as a whole is nothing more then homogenization of Tier Set, its easier to balance and prob doesnt need as much Work to come up with something "shitty" again.

[FelPlague]

Im Sorry what? since the Start of BFA how often did you change your traits after you knew which is BiS for you? How many Traits are there you want?

1-2? Maybe 3 ? Just looking at my Boomkin which i played at the Start of the Expansion then didnt touch it for over a Year!!!! oh look same old Traits still BiS with 1 Addition you want in 1 Slot, man what great Choices i have holy cow. And thats just the First and Second Ring, after that same old shit since the Start of this dumpster Fire

"i do want class apperance sets back, as in what teir sets gave us, with "here is the warlock set" but i think teir sets, are trash compared to azerite."

I could agree with that because the did do some really amazing looking Sets.

Azerite as a whole is nothing more then homogenization of Tier Set, its easier to balance and prob doesnt need as much Work to come up with something "shitty" again.

1. i have changed many times. Currently in Destro i am running 5 different traits. and doing pretty well for myself.

2. i have changed a fair few times! On queens court and Orgo i swapped to 2 specific traits 2 each then 2 other traits just for the 1 buff.

3. Even then i also changed alot when i played demo, implosion, bareful, demonic meteor, supreme commander

4. how often do you change your teir sets in an expansion? oh wait once per raid teir... so 3 times in legion, 2 times in wod, 3 times in mop...
And again its funny you go over constant BIS saying "NO CHOICE ONLY BIS!" which is funny... cause i am pretty sure....
oh yeah there it is.

Now yes, you may say "but azerite BIS means we dont choose anyways!" yes, but thats only if you wanna be BIS.
atleast with azerite we have the choice, we can choose to use the set we like, or the set that is BIS. while with tier sets its YOU ARE PLAYING THIS.

I rather have the choice of "hey here is like 5 options, 1-3 are BIS, do with that what you will" then "HERE IS YOUR SET, YOU WILL USE IT OR YOU WILL BE TRASH!"

[kaminaris]

And that somehow makes you immune to mistakes?

Like mate, read through the set bonus and keep in mind how Lightning Shield Charges, Earth shock and shock cd's worked in WoD, you can make a fool or yourself or just admit that you're wrong.
If you mindlessly pressed ES or had an empty GCD during movement, you were just doing it wrong.

It doesn't make me immune to mistakes but It also makes mew knowledgeable about this. Nevertheless small stuff like this still doesn't magically alter your rotation.

"if Blizzard designs bad stuff, i'm mad, if they design good stuff, i'm mad that i'm losing it" - In a game where Rental power becomes ever more relevant.

If you think you'd keep all the Azerite bonuses that currently exist (if they had actually continued the system), you're delusional.
I'd rather decent stuff from time to time, than halfbaked shit the entire time.

Did you even listen to yourself? You didn't even had a choice in this matter, you literally had to win bingo card. With Azerite gear I still have the same traits I used in Uldir. And even if I didn't like some specific traits i could swap it to something else, not to mention usually different azerites are better for different situations.
With tier set no matter how shitty it was you never take that set off.

The first time was feeling like i was playing lottery in WoW was in fact BfA, where you had to literally gamble for the right Azerite pieces without having to wait 10 weeks.
Matter of fact, still waiting for Azerite traits that i actually like, so yeah, if you consider "bad design" as "lottery" then playing WoW in itself is playing lottery because there is no insurance that the game itself is actually good.
because that is by your standards already gambling.

It simply hasn't happened that Blizzard designed 6+ amazing traits that are engaging and interesting for all 36 specializations.
It's simply easier to design one good bonus rather than 6.

You can now "BUT THEY WEREN'T!" and i quite frankly don't have the nerve to further refute this than: That's just your opinion.
You can further shit on anyone that doesn't share your hot love for the Azerite system, but that's just how it is.

So you never played in legion i guess? Like not even being able to get the legendaries you like until they lifted a softcap. Doing all kinds of crap just to hope some day it will drop?

And about azerite you are wrong about numer of things:
1. Vendor has only 6 pieces per slot to roll from so the chance of getting right one is 16%
2. You can drop pieces straight up from raids.
3. You can wait 4-6 week to buy specific one.
4. Usually there are 3 pieces in vendor with trait you like so you have about 50% chance to get something good.

If you call this lottery then I don't know what legiondaries were? Rigged slot machines.

So we're talking here about people even below LFR / Low M+ keys?
I think these people aren't even interested in gameplay anymore, so that's moot.

By the way, Set bonuses were even obtainable in LFR, in which anyone can participate.

You mean the current one?

There is no lottery anymore, sorry, you CAN buy specific piece. You CAN drop specific piece from raids.

[Lurker1]

im 50/50 about it i miss the class only looks not the bonuses.

[Seuchentiffy]

1. i have changed many times. Currently in Destro i am running 5 different traits. and doing pretty well for myself.

2. i have changed a fair few times! On queens court and Orgo i swapped to 2 specific traits 2 each then 2 other traits just for the 1 buff.

3. Even then i also changed alot when i played demo, implosion, bareful, demonic meteor, supreme commander

4. how often do you change your teir sets in an expansion? oh wait once per raid teir... so 3 times in legion, 2 times in wod, 3 times in mop...
And again its funny you go over constant BIS saying "NO CHOICE ONLY BIS!" which is funny... cause i am pretty sure....
oh yeah there it is.

I rather have the choice of "hey here is like 5 options, 1-3 are BIS, do with that what you will" then "HERE IS YOUR SET, YOU WILL USE IT OR YOU WILL BE TRASH!"

1. Just a quick look at Destru in EP on warcraftlogs tells me there is no real "choice", choosing between ST vs MT should be accomplished by Talents not by Swapping Gear or even traits which cost Gold (in my opinion)

2. Good for you, i played with the same old Traits since the beginning because nothing changed

3. Same thing choosing btw Burst/ST/MT should be accomplished by Talents not swapping Traits, hell you could farm (and you prob have?) a whole set just to accomplsh that, so your choice is which button do i press to equip the gear i need........

4. How often did you change your azerite armor? Every season reset because you needed to regrind it with higher itemlevel? Basically were are wearing the same Armor since the Start after acquiring the so called "BiS". Also i didnt even mention BiS in any sentence till now...... and who doesnt want to have BiS? Why would i choose to gimp my performance because "oh look so many option but only 1-2 are really good and the rest is trash"