BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[arkanon]

Yes and where is the problem ?

I dont think anyone is really saying there is a "problem" or, if there is, i certainly dont agree with them. However i think a small section of the classic community set themselves up for disappointment, and in some situations, a bit of general mockery. Many of us (i would like to think the majority) knew how low the difficulty was compared to modern wow, and were actually looking forward to it. The joy of the current setup with both classic and retail running together is, if you want a challenge, retail is there for you. If you prefer a more social and very simplistic version of the game, that exists as well! I think thats a fantastic thing.

The difficulty and requirements of retails harder content mean it can be quite draining on higher end players, so for many, classic is a great opportunity to still raid, but without any of the challenges presented by harder content. Like i said, many, if not most, knew this was the case long ahead of the launch of classic, and got exactly what we expected. However there was a very vocal minority who suggested classics content would be a challenge even for heroic/mythic raiders, and now that they have egg on their face, there is a level of enjoyment for some watching them squirm and twist in discomfort as the truth comes out.

Most of those players gave up fighting the truth almost immediately, however some stuck to their guns and simply went with excuses, and some amazing attempts at revisionist history. The goalposts have now clearly been shifted to the next raid, and when that falls over in a matter of hours, and casual raid guilds have it cleared week 1, the goalposts will shift again until eventually we reach naxx. At that point, the inevitable will happen:

"no one EVER said vanilla raids were going to be hard, but you just wait for BC! its going to destroy guilds!"

tl;dr - Its not a "problem" so much as it is an interesting discussion point.

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Ohh lol my bad, thought you were him.

No drama at all, just making sure you didnt think i was the loony who thinks vanilla raids are as hard as current Mythic.

[Kaver]

As I said, before is that Classic raiding isn't hard, but neither is retail raiding, it's infinitely more punishing to fail in classic than retail though.

Have you cleared mythic Azshara or mythic Jaina? That shit is damn hard even with 20 top geared players.

Also I know it's not raiding, but doing m+ on 20-25 keys is also damn hard.

The most challenging content in retail is damn hard.

[Frozenbro]

Also, the difficulty of classic raids aren't in how hard the bosses are, which I have repeatedly argued without refutation from your end.

You are in the wrong thread then mate, go create your own then, cause this thread is called BWL AQ Naxx will be demolished with ease aka they are easy af, which everyone already knows, why twist stuff to fit your narrative? it only makes it more funny.

[Mukind]

- Within, of course, the time allowed via gating/grinding. The actual bosses will go down like flies in a window on a summers day.

This isn't criticism of the game, but a wake-up call to those who think Classic was just "hard" and that no amount of player experience will change that: you are completely wrong. This content will be a cake-walk for any reasonably experienced guild. People put MC being cleared so fast down to 1.12: trust me, it would have been cleared in the same time even in an earlier patch.

And when this starts, I'm expecting to see the usual conspiracy theories about "stealth nerfs" and whatnot. Just accept you're not going to be waiting for months on end to see bosses fall. Concentrate on your progress and enjoyment of the game, ultimately

Uhh vast majority of guilds clearing mc won't ever see the end of aq def not naxx. There is no lfr most people will never see it done.

Guilds will struggle on vael with a simple chain cleave

It's a lot harder than some retail content. Lol

[arkanon]

Uhh vast majority of guilds clearing mc won't ever see the end of aq def not naxx. There is no lfr most people will never see it done.

Guilds will struggle on vael with a simple chain cleave

It's a lot harder than some retail content. Lol

The hardest content classic has to offer is 'harder' than SOME of the easiest content retail has to offer - LFR, but mostly on par with it.

[Mukind]

The hardest content classic has to offer is 'harder' than SOME of the easiest content retail has to offer - LFR, but mostly on par with it.

LFR has no idiot check mechanics

Vanilla is filled with retard checks

Lucifron, Vael, they go on. And will kill most of the guilds in this game

Most p server guilds didn't finish the content....And it wasn't because they didn't parse well enough. it was simple idiot checks like can' you deal with vael cleave

[Jastall]

No it doesnt becouse classic raids doesnt have button and interface menu where you can ignore all problems coming from 40 man raid? If classic would have LFR for MC nobady would manage to kill any boss. Classic raids are definitly harder than bfa LFR and even normal. Those bosses might have more mechanics but there is 0 preparation and most of those mechanics can be completly ignored.

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Dude most casual classic players never killed single boss in MC. But guess what most casual players clear every single raid tier in BFA. Classic is for casual player harder to clear becouse it has no difficutly levels and easy mods thats why modern game is considered easyer. Mythic on retail is not new content is same content as LFR and casual player by beating game on LFR consider game fininished. Classic do no have short cuts. You dont content or you dont.

LFR lets you ignore mechanics, but even Normal doesn't. You'll die if you're stupid with tornados on Radiance. You'll die if you don't get the fish buff on Behemoth. You'll die if you stand on Ichor like an idiot on Orgozoa. Unless the raid's DPS is fairly high, you'll also die if you ignore the wards and other mechanics on Azshara; these are but examples. I've seen pugs repeatedly wipe in Normal when Palace first released. Now I assume it's less common with the gear upgrades we got, but still.

[arkanon]

LFR lets you ignore mechanics, but even Normal doesn't. You'll die if you're stupid with tornados on Radiance. You'll die if you don't get the fish buff on Behemoth. You'll die if you stand on Ichor like an idiot on Orgozoa. Unless the raid's DPS is fairly high, you'll also die if you ignore the wards and other mechanics on Azshara; these are but examples. I've seen pugs repeatedly wipe in Normal when Palace first released. Now I assume it's less common with the gear upgrades we got, but still.

From my experience, it actually becomes MORE common in pugs later in a tiers life cycle. From what i have seen, its usually players who have cleared it as a tank bringing their terrible DPS having never dpsd the encounters, and fucking up really simple mechanics, or simply horribly under performing because although they know the content, they lack a decent understanding of their alts abilities. If i was going to pick one word, it would be "complacency".

Obviously as people become more geared and experienced, they tend to push into higher difficulties, which leaves normal to be REALLY hit and miss. And yes, those claiming there is no danger in normal clearly have ZERO experience with retail raiding. They may be very simple to avoid, but there are multiple fights that absolutely will result in complete wipes if players do not follow major mechanics.

As i have said before, as players becomes massively over geared, and come back to normal to carry a friend or just for fun, certain mechanics can be bypassed due to pushing phases quickly, or just simply overpowering certain mechanics through DPS or HPS.

[Grimreaper]

The only guilds blitzing through the future raids will be the ones whom have already done so hundreds of times over the last decade. There will not be any 'fresh' classic guilds (purely filled with people who never played vanilla nor private servers) steamrolling AQ40 or Naxx in the first week. None. Guaranteed.

Classic raids arent easy because they have the bar set low, they are easy because you have already farmed them to the ground.

[arkanon]

The only guilds blitzing through the future raids will be the ones whom have already done so hundreds of times over the last decade. There will not be any 'fresh' classic guilds (purely filled with people who never played vanilla nor private servers) steamrolling AQ40 or Naxx in the first week. None. Guaranteed.

Classic raids arent easy because they have the bar set low, they are easy because you have already farmed them to the ground.

The problem with statements like these is that you have used intangible measures. With a floating bar, you have ensured you can always say "i was right!" because you have set no standard. You have said a lot of word salad that essentially equates to "AQ and Naxx are harder, and not everyone that has completed MC will complete those raids" which is an arbitrary statement with no real meaning. The reason it holds no real weight is that this statement could be 'true' but for completely unrelated reasons to what you are trying to claim, for example, they may have quit raiding, or quit playing altogether, but that has no relationship to content difficulty.

Some predict the player numbers will continue to drop, meaning yes, by default less players will complete later content.

[munkeyinorbit]

Uhh vast majority of guilds clearing mc won't ever see the end of aq def not naxx. There is no lfr most people will never see it done.

Guilds will struggle on vael with a simple chain cleave

It's a lot harder than some retail content. Lol

I've done KJ on LFR. I'm pretty sure I am ready for (lol)Naxx. And I'm a third rate player in Classic. BWL will be a stroll in the park. AQ will be a joke. Naxx? Hahahaha. If the game even interests me to this point I'm doing naxx level dps now and I don't even have all blues yet. (I understand there is gear that is blue that is prenaxx bis, I don't have it). You are just delusional.

Can't wait for the "we knew naxx was going to be easy, just wait for BC" threads.

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LFR has no idiot check mechanics

Vanilla is filled with retard checks

Lucifron, Vael, they go on. And will kill most of the guilds in this game

Most p server guilds didn't finish the content....And it wasn't because they didn't parse well enough. it was simple idiot checks like can' you deal with vael cleave

Of course PS guilds struggle. Their hard content is my LFR. Retail would destroy most PS guilds.

[asil]

LFR has no idiot check mechanics

Vanilla is filled with retard checks

Lucifron, Vael, they go on. And will kill most of the guilds in this game

Most p server guilds didn't finish the content....And it wasn't because they didn't parse well enough. it was simple idiot checks like can' you deal with vael cleave

Lmao someone here has never tried to do LFR g'huun, LFR KJ, LFR Garrosh or any number of other LFR bosses that a ton of LFR groups could not kill without an absurd number of stacks.

Like, no, just no man. There are way more "retard checks" in retail than vanilla.

I'd expect the average LFR raider to be about on par with your average classic raider in terms of mechanical ability. Obviously not all - but most people raiding on classic aren't exactly the cream of the crop.

Which is perfectly fine - if people want to enjoy easier content, more power to them. But the idea classic has more "pass/fail" checks than retail raiding is just a very dubious claim.

[arkanon]

Lmao someone here has never tried to do LFR g'huun, LFR KJ, LFR Garrosh or any number of other LFR bosses that a ton of LFR groups could not kill without an absurd number of stacks.

Like, no, just no man. There are way more "retard checks" in retail than vanilla.

I'd expect the average LFR raider to be about on par with your average classic raider in terms of mechanical ability. Obviously not all - but most people raiding on classic aren't exactly the cream of the crop.

I think classic raiding is a really good alternative for those who find normal retail raids too challenging - its still fun, you can socialise a lot more due to the simplicity, and with the 1-2 button rotations, what mechanics do exist can be avoided with ease, allowing more time to soak in the aesthetics of the raid and the environment. But in saying that, some of those would find the mundane leveling too slow and boring, so might not make it to 60.

Just remember, this thread has people who GENUINELY believe classic raiding is as hard, as demanding as mythic raiding, as well as a couple who think nothing in normal can kill you. They are either extremely dishonest, or, more likely, have zero experience in retail.

[Kralljin]

First off, 30 completely random pugs are already smashing MC in 60-90 minutes - zero prep, no consumables, no communication, just walking in and completely stomping it.

I call BS.
A halfway decent guild, that actually uses World buffs & Consumables does MC in about an hour.

Yet you want to tell me that a pug, that has neither World buffs nor consumables does in about the same time?

So, either you got carried on your alt by people that actually used that shit, or you're lying.

[arkanon]

I call BS.
A halfway decent guild, that actually uses World buffs & Consumables does MC in about an hour.

Yet you want to tell a pug, that has neither World buffs nor consumables does in about the same time?

So, either you got carried on your alt by people that actually used that shit, or your lying.

Not just me explaining the truth, there is someone else in here explaining that with 30 people, in greens, with zero communication or world buffs, clear it in under 90 minutes. Why is it hard for people to accept this is going on every day, its not unusual or special, its the norm.

Exactly which world buffs (plural) are you stacking for these clears?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

What difference does it make?

You mean people have learned in 15 years how to use pots, wizard oil, flasks, potions, stack buffs and itemize vs showing up in greens and yelling “PULL!”?

So bosses don’t have 5 phases, you don’t need players to nuke adds or set up stacks/spread out etc. SO WHAT?

You’re basically complaining that people want to play a game they enjoy in an version/era they loved or never got to see?

Didn't people show up to the APES WF Ony and Rag in greens on Classic?

[Kralljin]

Not just me explaining the truth, there is someone else in here explaining that with 30 people, in greens, with zero communication or world buffs, clear it in under 90 minutes.

The issue is that these numbers don't add up.

People have a full array of world buffs + Consumables ~ double their dps, now take the full bunch of consumables into account, (Mana / Rage) potions etc.., the sky is really the limit in terms of min/maxing.

So, if these people on top of that are really going for chainpulls (which is rather risky because dying = no more world buffs) are doing MC in like ~40 minutes, then it's rather unlikely that a pug, who doesn't use any of these preperation does the same Instance merely in merely 20 more minutes.

Exactly which world buffs (plural) are you stacking for these clears?

-Dragonslayer buff (140 AP + 5% Melee Crit ; 10% Spell crit)
-DM North (200AP, 3% Spellcrit, 15% Sta)
-Songflower Serenade (15 Mainstats, 5% Crit)
-Warchiefs blessing (Horde only) (300Hp, 15% Haste, 10Mp5)

So, let's say you're a Dps Warrior, you have
+340 AP
+ 10% Crit
+ 15 % Haste
+ 15 Mainstats

Now add in the wide array of consumables that exist, especially for Melees, you can see why it's rather unlikely that a pug, that ignores any of these would come even close to that clear time of an organized group that uses these buffs and plays on the edge in terms of pulling.

[arkanon]

The issue is that these numbers don't add up.

People have a full array of world buffs + Consumables ~ double their dps, now take the full bunch of consumables into account, (Mana / Rage) potions etc.., the sky is really the limit in terms of min/maxing.

So, if these people on top of that are really going for chainpulls (which is rather risky because dying = no more world buffs) are doing MC in like ~40 minutes, then it's rather unlikely that a pug, who doesn't use any of these preperation does the same Instance merely requires 20 more minutes, is just bogus.



-Dragonslayer buff (140 AP + 5% Melee Crit ; 10% Spell crit)
-DM North (200AP, 3% Spellcrit, 15% Sta)
-Songflower Serenade (15 Mainstats, 5% Crit)
-Warchiefs blessing (Horde only) (300Hp, 15% Haste, 10Mp5)

So, let's say you're a Dps Warrior, you have
+340 AP
+ 10% Crit
+ 15 % Haste
+ 15 Mainstats

Now add in the wide array of consumables that exist, especially for Melees, you can see why it's rather unlikely that a pug, that ignores any of these would come even close to that clear time of an organized group that uses these buffs and plays on the edge in terms of pulling.

I don't know of a single grp that uses world buffs. They simply are not required for a clean and easy run between 60 and 90 minutes. I have never done a clear when anyone has had any world buffs, the time taken to aquire them can make the overall process take LONGER, rather than making it quicker. It's simply not worth the effort.

I also find it amusing you tunnel in on the 60min time, ignoring the other 30 mins in the rough range i provided, and talk about it being "only 20 mins more" while ignoring the fact that is a 50% increase in clear time, and at 90 mins, over 100% increase in clear time - both very dramatic increases.

[Sorcath]

But hes correct and each will be cleared within the week of their release (and access).

As opposed to current retail where it's cleared within the week of release? Please, pen me a letter telling me where to send my thoughts and prayers.

[arkanon]

Didn't people show up to the APES WF Ony and Rag in greens on Classic?

They did, but the apes members have said some of them did use consumables, they had planned that first clear for months. I consider this clear to be the extreme end of the scale, but now, a few months later, even the casual raiding guilds are doing similar with 30+ lvl 60 characters, little no no prep at all, and still killing bosses in 30-45 seconds.