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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I don't know of a single grp that uses world buffs. They simply are not required for a clean and easy run between 60 and 90 minutes.
    The point is that the numbers don't add up.
    If Consumables + World buffs double your dps, you aren't taking any breaks for mana and just chug mana pots / runes instead, you're not just going 20min faster than a random assortment of 30(!) people, especially if you are 40 on top of that.

    In your average MC pug, especially in one without voice, it's more likely that someone body pulls some trash mob, which can be threatening depending on your situation, because some trash mobs in MC just straight up kill people and ressing (multiple) people in Classic eats up time. a lot.
    In order to do such a quick run, you need to skip mobs that can absolutely be bodypulled.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have never done a clear when anyone has had any world buffs, the time taken to aquire them can make the overall process take LONGER, rather than making it quicker. It's simply not worth the effort.
    Considering those are used for speedruns, that's irrelevant.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcath View Post
    As opposed to current retail where it's cleared within the week of release? Please, pen me a letter telling me where to send my thoughts and prayers.
    By semi professional raid teams with 18+ hour days and months and months of prep work, but i dont think anyone is arguing about that, other than the horribly inaccurate graph, the difference is the next level of players, the casuals, who were clearing the same content within a few days / week. That does NOT happen on retail, and that is where the main difference lies - the bleeding edge guilds will clear naxx first, and on day 1, there is no doubt about that, however the next 100+ groups will clear it within a week. That takes months on retail.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering those are used for speedruns, that's irrelevant.
    - Claims my experience is false because of world buffs

    - immediately claims they are "irrelevant"

    You are too funny man, way too funny. The numbers add up just fine, and so do the personal experiences of multiple people on this forum, openly admitting they are casual at best, still clearing the place in under 90 mins. This isnt an outlier, it isnt rare. It is the norm.

    If you dont think that reducing a clear time by HALF is massive, i really dont know what to tell you.

    Well i do have ONE thing to tell you - those speed runners you think take 40 mins to clear it? They are sub 30 mins, and have been for weeks. Around 25mins is the mark atm i believe, so i really hate to completely crush your argument again, but it is YOUR numbers that dont add up.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    - Claims my experience is false because of world buffs
    It's not just world buff, you claimed:
    -you going in 30 people
    -No consumables
    -No World buffs
    -Entirely random

    Under the entirety of these factors, a clear in slightly over 60min is anything but the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    openly admitting they are casual at best, still clearing the place in under 90 mins.
    Raiding on classic is currently an extremely casual activity, your average guild does that in MC easily.
    But there is a world of difference between a guild which has a structure and some people that have a basic clue of game at its head, than a random pug.

    I don't claim that only hardcore people are able to do this, but entering a MC pug from the trade chat, won't result in a ~60min clear, let alone if they are going with 30 people.

    Let me rephrase that, if you join a guild that does MC, doing MC in something about 60 minutes is nothing special, but that's because guilds are generally run and made up by some people that have a clue about the game.
    Guilds aren't your random pug and that's where i call BS on your claim, because you claimed that any pug does this.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Well i do have ONE thing to tell you - those speed runners you think take 40 mins to clear it? They are sub 30 mins, and have been for weeks. Around 25mins is the mark atm i believe, so i really hate to completely crush your argument again, but it is YOUR numbers that dont add up.
    That's the record currently.
    You're free to check the runs at 40min as well and realize that people use the above described tools there as well.
    Those that are doing the sub 30min runs are just optmized even further in terms of setup and strat.

    The fastest run currently (25:34) for example has 18 Dps Warriors, not exactly a steup that every guild can stem.

    Like, bosses such as Harbinger or Executus die even faster because all adds just get stacked up and blown up via Sapper charges.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-07 at 12:35 AM.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    By semi professional raid teams with 18+ hour days and months and months of prep work, but i dont think anyone is arguing about that, other than the horribly inaccurate graph, the difference is the next level of players, the casuals, who were clearing the same content within a few days / week. That does NOT happen on retail, and that is where the main difference lies - the bleeding edge guilds will clear naxx first, and on day 1, there is no doubt about that, however the next 100+ groups will clear it within a week. That takes months on retail.
    No, no. We're not talking THE DAY of release. We're talking within the week. Which almost every top end server does currently. If you think you're going to skate by on mere semantics then you've got something to learn.

    Who

    Cares?

    It's as if you don't understand that PTR realms exist and a ton of active raiders participate in it. Besides the fact that lots of people clear end game content within the week, IF your perception is that the "normal" player doesn't get to participate in these events due to guild participation/personal economy/development, then what would be the qualification for these so called norms to do the same in classic? Ok, so now that you don't have any argument, why not try and be less outraged over something you don't care about?
    We both know you're wrong, I'm just louder than your quiet conscious.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcath View Post
    No, no. We're not talking THE DAY of release. We're talking within the week. Which almost every top end server does currently. If you think you're going to skate by on mere semantics then you've got something to learn.

    Who

    Cares?

    It's as if you don't understand that PTR realms exist and a ton of active raiders participate in it. Besides the fact that lots of people clear end game content within the week, IF your perception is that the "normal" player doesn't get to participate in these events due to guild participation/personal economy/development, then what would be the qualification for these so called norms to do the same in classic? Ok, so now that you don't have any argument, why not try and be less outraged over something you don't care about?
    Wait, are you trying to suggest that not just one, but multiple guilds are clearing Mythic the WEEK of release? You cant honestly believe that can you? There are not anywhere near that level of guilds fully clearing mythic week one, and i have absolutely no fucking idea where you got that information. I mean honestly, you couldnt be more wrong to think that "almost every top end server" full clears mythic on release week. Seriously, where do you get this information? Most of the recent world first races have revolved around the top few guilds in the world (who had yet to get final boss down) making a plan of attack for AFTER THE FIRST RESET. This has become a MAJOR strategy point for guilds, whether they continue to slog on, or start doing split runs and even M+ to prepare for week 2.

    Honestly I just cant believe the level of dishonesty from the handful of classic fanbois, who just openly lie about very easily searchable and very well known facts, most of which are highly documented.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not just world buff, you claimed:
    -you going in 30 people
    -No consumables
    -No World buffs
    -Entirely random

    Under the entirety of these factors, a clear in slightly over 60min is anything but the norm.



    Raiding on classic is currently an extremely casual activity, your average guild does that in MC easily.
    But there is a world of difference between a guild which has a structure and some people that have a basic clue of game at its head, than a random pug.

    I don't claim that only hardcore people are able to do this, but entering a MC pug from the trade chat, won't result in a ~60min clear, let alone if they are going with 30 people.

    Let me rephrase that, if you join a guild that does MC, doing MC in something about 60 minutes is nothing special, but that's because guilds are generally run and made up by some people that have a clue about the game.
    Guilds aren't your random pug and that's where i call BS on your claim, because you claimed that any pug does this.



    That's the record currently.
    You're free to check the runs at 40min as well and realize that people use the above described tools there as well.
    Those that are doing the sub 30min runs are just optmized even further in terms of setup and strat.

    The fastest run currently (25:34) for example has 18 Dps Warriors, not exactly a steup that every guild can stem.

    Like, bosses such as Harbinger or Executus die even faster because all adds just get stacked up and blown up via Sapper charges.
    Man thats an awful lot of words when "Hey, you are right, i am wrong" would have worked just as well. It is fun watching you jump between "its not possible" to "well, its possible, and normal, but only if its a guild", and numerous iterations of "hey, im just gonna backtrack my way out of this since all my numbers have been shown to be garbage". Its not hard to just say "hey, you know what, after looking into it further, it looks like you might be right"

    You are desperately trying to change my argument so you can dismantle it more easily - i never said ANY / EVERY pug is clearing it 60-90 minutes, i said its the norm - its just that easy. Are there pugs taking longer? absolutely, im 100% sure there have been pugs fall apart, just like some LFRs fall apart. But it is very typical in mine and others experience to join a weekend pug for MC and be in and out in under 90 mins without any communication, world buffs, or consumables.

    And although you dont see it, your own evidence proves it is highly likely, with speed runners clearing it in under 30 minutes, meaning even the fastest casual pugs are taking over twice as long as the speed runners - and considering classes have 1-2 button rotations, so the skill ceiling is almost touching the floor, this seems extremely reasonable to me.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-01-07 at 01:01 AM.

  6. #326
    Bloodsail Admiral Misuteri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Didn't people show up to the APES WF Ony and Rag in greens on Classic?
    Yes, some of them did and some were not even 60.

    However as many have stated MC is almost loot piñata territory. When they cleared at best they had a few people in dungeon sets 2 or 4 pieces. Of course they were fully raid buffed pots/flasks, oils etc. During vanilla most people didn’t even know how to or did that when raiding started but of course tactics were well known as well.

    Mythic/heroic raiding at the beginning of expansions are just about all done in greens and blues, mostly blues of course. MC/Ony doesn’t even come close to that level of difficulty or DPS/healing checks.
    Last edited by Misuteri; 2020-01-07 at 01:00 AM.
    The most persecuted minority is the individual.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not just world buff, you claimed:
    -you going in 30 people
    -No consumables
    -No World buffs
    -Entirely random

    Under the entirety of these factors, a clear in slightly over 60min is anything but the norm.



    Raiding on classic is currently an extremely casual activity, your average guild does that in MC easily.
    But there is a world of difference between a guild which has a structure and some people that have a basic clue of game at its head, than a random pug.

    I don't claim that only hardcore people are able to do this, but entering a MC pug from the trade chat, won't result in a ~60min clear, let alone if they are going with 30 people.

    Let me rephrase that, if you join a guild that does MC, doing MC in something about 60 minutes is nothing special, but that's because guilds are generally run and made up by some people that have a clue about the game.
    Guilds aren't your random pug and that's where i call BS on your claim, because you claimed that any pug does this.



    That's the record currently.
    You're free to check the runs at 40min as well and realize that people use the above described tools there as well.
    Those that are doing the sub 30min runs are just optmized even further in terms of setup and strat.

    The fastest run currently (25:34) for example has 18 Dps Warriors, not exactly a steup that every guild can stem.

    Like, bosses such as Harbinger or Executus die even faster because all adds just get stacked up and blown up via Sapper charges.
    Lol. I would think I am pretty casual Classic player in both sense of the word. Don't play a lot and I'm pretty bad. I have experience at the pointy end of progression on an excellent server but I haven't done hardest content since WoD I think? Priorities change and I prefer dicking around with friends now.

    When I last cleared MC it took 90ish minutes. There was no rushing. No bad body pulls. No wipes. No consumables and half the raid had Ony buff. Every piece of gear was snapped up. I can't say I checked everyone but there was a lot of down time to check other people out. Nothing special. A few epics, a bunch of rates and a green or two was almost universal. I would say that my group was probably an average pug.

    I know I'm bad at Classic. I don't bother with enchants, I skipped dungeon farming for prebis, I spec for farming out in the world, and I don't pay a lot of attention to what I'm doing dps wise. If me and the people I end up playing with aren't your typical PUG players, I don't know what you want. How did we do a 90 min run? MC is fucking easy. I still don't know what the mechanic is for each boss but when it happens to me I know how to deal with it. Why? I play retail and I have seen almost everything. Bomb that needs to be dispelled? Seen it. Interupt heals? Seen it. AOE damage and or knockback? Seen it. Curses? Yawn. Patting mob? Omg so hard. Classic is easy mode.

    I'm going to crush naxx.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Akasha64 View Post
    Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.


    1. mods were not as sophisticated back then
    2. the game concepts were not as complex, the initial raids were tutorials on mechanics.
    3. the game saw substantial nerfs / changes to balance the factions ... see paladin vs shaman issues in BWL vanilla
    4. the raids were larger and loot was distributed across many more people
    5. the spoiler culture / strat farm in alpha/beta / trash balances were muuuuuch different
    6. finally, larger raid sizes meant more people had to coordinate to be viable on any given encounter. encounters were literally "too small to let full raids live" at times, etc.
    7. keying entire raids... minimum gearing entire raids...
    8. waaaaay fewer pathways to upgrades. You could argue PVP gear alone is the largest difference between vanilla and post vanilla raid gears, on top of "token turn in" type mechanics. Basically nothing like that existed in vanilla. you did raids or you got 0 upgrades.


    It just isn't the same game expansion to expansion, just because the clear times were longer doesn't mean the content became any more or less "easy" itself, there were many social factors as well as how the gear worked and self-sustaining worked.


    Vanilla raiding was more similar to mythic raiding in terms of how you had to saturate gear, and the requirements. The main buffer factor is that in every single raid there was some number of literal afk/naked fluff slots due to the inflated raid size. the other balancing factor is that the encounters were simpler but oftentimes much longer as you'd lose dps when learning and that was more or less built in.

    One thing that definitely wasn't really in place immediately at launch was the whole stacking/ideal class thing. I mean, there weren't even consistent damage meters (let alone threat) until midway through raiding as the tools trickled out of the big world-first competing guilds.

    Decursive and auto-heal scripts were borderline required for everyone who wasn't in some sort of military armchair guild.



    People trying to compare expansions via arbitrary garbage like "time to clear raids" when all of those factors aren't considered are pretty silly.


    Another thing to think of is just multiply the number of people playing WoW and in your guild and in your raid by a huge number. Now consider how many of them are basically burning trash and will outwardly cause you to wipe.

    Now multiply that number as everyone needs to learn a thing. And that's where the wipes come from.
    Last edited by frott; 2020-01-07 at 01:19 AM.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by frott View Post
    1. mods were not as sophisticated back then
    2. the game concepts were not as complex, the initial raids were tutorials on mechanics.
    3. the game saw substantial nerfs / changes to balance the factions ... see paladin vs shaman issues in BWL vanilla
    4. the raids were larger and loot was distributed across many more people
    5. the spoiler culture / strat farm in alpha/beta / trash balances were muuuuuch different
    6. finally, larger raid sizes meant more people had to coordinate to be viable on any given encounter. encounters were literally "too small to let full raids live" at times, etc.
    7. keying entire raids... minimum gearing entire raids...
    8. waaaaay fewer pathways to upgrades. You could argue PVP gear alone is the largest difference between vanilla and post vanilla raid gears, on top of "token turn in" type mechanics. Basically nothing like that existed in vanilla. you did raids or you got 0 upgrades.


    It just isn't the same game expansion to expansion, just because the clear times were longer doesn't mean the content became any more or less "easy" itself, there were many social factors as well as how the gear worked and self-sustaining worked.


    Vanilla raiding was more similar to mythic raiding in terms of how you had to saturate gear, and the requirements. The main buffer factor is that in every single raid there was some number of literal afk/naked fluff slots due to the inflated raid size. the other balancing factor is that the encounters were simpler but oftentimes much longer as you'd lose dps when learning and that was more or less built in.

    One thing that definitely wasn't really in place immediately at launch was the whole stacking/ideal class thing. I mean, there weren't even consistent damage meters (let alone threat) until midway through raiding as the tools trickled out of the big world-first competing guilds.

    Decursive and auto-heal scripts were borderline required for everyone who wasn't in some sort of military armchair guild.



    People trying to compare expansions via arbitrary garbage like "time to clear raids" when all of those factors aren't considered are pretty silly.
    About the only thing you said that is correct is that gear was far slower to acquire in vanilla compared to retail. Almost everything else is just plain inaccurate. The very idea that raiding in vanilla was even close to retail mythic is insulting to those of us who raided in vanilla, raid mythic in retail, and raid in classic - there is no comparison at all.

    The fact you casually gloss over the fact that in a 40man raid, numerous players where afk / dead and it had no impact on the outcome of the encounter shows how disingenuous you really are. Can you imagine that in a current mythic progression raid?

    "ok guys, ready to pull, but Hank and Sue are afk, and Brian died to that trash. Actually, we have 2 others AFK, but fuck it, lets just pull, it should be fine"

    The very suggestion these two things are comparable is laughable to anyone who experienced both.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    It is fun watching you jump between "its not possible" to "well, its possible, and normal, but only if its a guild",
    Go through the very first post, i never said it was impossible, i never said casual can't do it.
    I called it BS because you're not clearing MC with your average MC pug.

    You, by the way, also shifted from "no consumables, just 30 people, 100% pug" to "lol no world buffs".

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    i never said ANY / EVERY pug is clearing it 60-90 minutes, i said its the norm - its just that easy.
    And i've made it clear that this isn't the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    and considering classes have 1-2 button rotations, so the skill ceiling is almost touching the floor
    Warriors for example have a bit more quirks that a lot people aren't aware of.
    Case in point, heroic strike messing with the hit chance of your offhand.

    Or Tanks, which basically control your dps, you believe that managing rage as tank is easy, too hard for some people.

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    -snip-
    Want to hear my anecdotal evidence? Here it is.

    Onyxia:
    1.Tanks unable to generate threat properly
    2.Dps pulling aggro in P1 and wiping half the raid with breath
    3.People dying to Deep breath
    4.Wiping because all of the above occurred because Healer Mana is limited

    Other experience out of MC, been in pug raid(s) where i've wiped on Bosses because people were unable to:
    Dispel
    Geddon Bomb
    Keep a mob banished / sheeped
    Not stack up
    Low dps (yeah, screwing up rotation is difficult, but if you don't have any hit (or gear in general sucks), your dps still sucks)

    That's where i said: "fuck it, i need a guild" and that experience was when people didn't have pre Raid BiS, access to DM or simply wiped themselves through MC until enough loot accumulated.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-07 at 01:28 AM.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Go through the very post, i never said it was impossible, i never said casual can't do it.
    I called it BS because you're not clearing MC with your average MC pug.

    You, by the way, also shifted from "no consumables, just 30 people, 100% pug" to "lol no world buffs".



    And i've made it clear that this isn't the norm.



    Warriors for example have a bit more quirks that a lot people aren't aware of.
    Case in point, heroic strike messing with the hit chance of your offhand.

    Or Tanks, which basically control your dps, you believe that managing rage as tank is easy, too hard for some people.

    One of the most popular tanking specs atm for warriors is dual daggers, wtf are you talking about? And it doesnt "mess with" the hit chance, they ignore the DW hit penalty if HS is queued. You are backtracking, fast, and you know it.

    Its perfectly normal to clear MC in well under 90 minutes with a PuG, and i cannot understand why you are not aware of this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Low dps (yeah, screwing up rotation is difficult, but if you don't have any hit (or gear in general sucks), your dps still sucks)
    HAHAHHA, did you just string the words together "screwing up you ROTATION is difficult" when the majority of dps specs literally press 1 button almost the entire fight, with SOME pressing a second occasionally?

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    I've done KJ on LFR. I'm pretty sure I am ready for (lol)Naxx. And I'm a third rate player in Classic. BWL will be a stroll in the park. AQ will be a joke. Naxx? Hahahaha. If the game even interests me to this point I'm doing naxx level dps now and I don't even have all blues yet. (I understand there is gear that is blue that is prenaxx bis, I don't have it). You are just delusional.

    Can't wait for the "we knew naxx was going to be easy, just wait for BC" threads.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Of course PS guilds struggle. Their hard content is my LFR. Retail would destroy most PS guilds.
    I mean considering p server players are dominating all aspects of classic i'm gonna have to say /doubt lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Lmao someone here has never tried to do LFR g'huun, LFR KJ, LFR Garrosh or any number of other LFR bosses that a ton of LFR groups could not kill without an absurd number of stacks.

    Like, no, just no man. There are way more "retard checks" in retail than vanilla.

    I'd expect the average LFR raider to be about on par with your average classic raider in terms of mechanical ability. Obviously not all - but most people raiding on classic aren't exactly the cream of the crop.

    Which is perfectly fine - if people want to enjoy easier content, more power to them. But the idea classic has more "pass/fail" checks than retail raiding is just a very dubious claim.
    It does for the content most people see. Most people are terrible at the game.

    That's why they put in LFR so you didn't have any idiot checks.

    Both retail and classic are filled with TERRIBLE players.
    Last edited by Mukind; 2020-01-07 at 01:38 AM.

  13. #333
    OP says water is wet, and out pops 18 pages.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    One of the most popular tanking specs atm for warriors is dual daggers, wtf are you talking about? And it doesnt "mess with" the hit chance, they ignore the DW hit penalty if HS is queued. You are backtracking, fast, and you know it.

    Its perfectly normal to clear MC in well under 90 minutes with a PuG, and i cannot understand why you are not aware of this.
    It's only popular among stacked guilds and high end players, dagger tanking makes 0 sense in a guild that can't utilize the TPS.

    Also i'm starting to question wether you play classic at all, Cadet's pugs take approx 2 hours, which is probably the single best pug group out there right now.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    It's only popular among stacked guilds and high end players, dagger tanking makes 0 sense in a guild that can't utilize the TPS.

    Also i'm starting to question wether you play classic at all, Cadet's pugs take approx 2 hours, which is probably the single best pug group out there right now.
    takes only one gamer to make the TPS worth it...Often a warlock spamming shadowbolt

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnumbers View Post
    OP says water is wet, and out pops 18 pages.
    Well yeah, because there remains a small group of individuals refusing to accept that water is infact wet, and instead try to start talking about ice and air.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    takes only one gamer to make the TPS worth it...Often a warlock spamming shadowbolt
    Doesn't make it "one of the most popular", sword & board is still the overwhelming majority of tanks followed by a small amount of dw, daggers don't come into the equation until your guild needs the TPS, which is generally not before Vael.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Go through the very first post, i never said it was impossible, i never said casual can't do it.
    I called it BS because you're not clearing MC with your average MC pug.

    You, by the way, also shifted from "no consumables, just 30 people, 100% pug" to "lol no world buffs".



    And i've made it clear that this isn't the norm.



    Warriors for example have a bit more quirks that a lot people aren't aware of.
    Case in point, heroic strike messing with the hit chance of your offhand.

    Or Tanks, which basically control your dps, you believe that managing rage as tank is easy, too hard for some people.



    Want to hear my anecdotal evidence? Here it is.

    Onyxia:
    1.Tanks unable to generate threat properly
    2.Dps pulling aggro in P1 and wiping half the raid with breath
    3.People dying to Deep breath
    4.Wiping because all of the above occurred because Healer Mana is limited

    Other experience out of MC, been in pug raid(s) where i've wiped on Bosses because people were unable to:
    Dispel
    Geddon Bomb
    Keep a mob banished / sheeped
    Not stack up
    Low dps (yeah, screwing up rotation is difficult, but if you don't have any hit (or gear in general sucks), your dps still sucks)

    That's where i said: "fuck it, i need a guild" and that experience was when people didn't have pre Raid BiS, access to DM or simply wiped themselves through MC until enough loot accumulated.
    Lol. Almost all my ony kills have had people die to deep breath and ony running around killing people because if aggro. Oh no, we have 15 people left. Still no wipes.

    In my very average player MC last week we had warlocks rip aggro off the big fire guy just as he did his flame aoe in melee. Guess who stood in it? Everyone. Then some warrior was laughing until he exploded in the raid. Half the raid dead, 16 people left, 75% left on the boss. No wipe.

    On that boss where there are lots of elementals. Every week a lock doesn't know what banish is and an add is just going around killing people. At least we know it's the skull target. Ok. I've wiped here twice before, but still.

    If you are telling me that me and the players I play with are not third rate losers who sometimes barely know that they aren't facing a boss...(that's strange, I don't see any numbers in my screen) just wow.

    The best thing about Naxx is that everyone has already seen it and crushed it in WotLK. It'll prob be easier than the 10 man version tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    I mean considering p server players are dominating all aspects of classic i'm gonna have to say /doubt lol
    You can spend your time /doubt all you want but it would be better spent learning reading comprehension.

    I said "Of course PS guilds struggle. Their hard content is my LFR. Retail would destroy most PS guilds."

    This was in response to the claim that on PS servers a lot of those players struggle with Naxx. The reason why is because the hardest content they do is equal to LFR on retail. How are they going to get any better if all they do is LFR level content. It's not like they had the experience of LFR in Legion or BFA let alone WotLK naxx.

    The top of the top in Classic is probably PS server people and they are likely the same people who dominate PS. That doesn't change the fact that your average retail player doesn't roll on in and ROFLSTOMP Classic raid content and will continue to do so through naxx.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  19. #339
    I've done ony a bunch of times now and shes never stayed in phase 2 long enough to deep breath, although her aggro is usually fucked in phase 3 and she just one taps a few ppl before someone who can tank gains aggro.

    I don't think it matters much for me if the raid content is a cake walk, the challenge is really the comittment to showing up and doing it over and over until you can move on. you have to farm molten core until you have enough dps / stamina to down bosses in bwl, can bwl be done in full blue gear, maybe. I don't think aq40 can be done without a decent amount of t2 so the real challenge is simply having everyone show up, get gear and then have the gear to move on. what really fucks you in classic is when geared players stop playing or just leave the guild. then you have to spend weeks gearing up new dudes. so while the content itself isn't super difficult, going through the whole thing with roughly the same 40 dudes is the challenge.

    I personally only got to broodlord the first time, i started raiding too late and missed most of bwl and aq40/naxx. I remember making a paladin for the naxx PTR (i played a priest back then and wanted to see what palas were like geared) it was the first PTR where they offered pre-made characters I managed to get to razuvious in a pug that was lagging like crazy and some mobs didn't even have models. suffice to say there was too much lag and everyone was too shit to down any bosses. I would like to see how far I can get, my bro plays as well so we get to raid together and help each other outside of raids. for me its just the fun of doing the content while its current. I'm tanking another tank got both bindings and i have the one from garr, if i eventually get the one from baron, we'll ultimately have two tanks with TF, hopefully before p6 hits. this gives me hope for our chances. when bwl comes out our tank CL will be able to start making his TF and then i can do mine. having two tanks with very good threat gen will be a boon for progress.

    I do think that the best guilds will clear bwl in the first raid, while not every guild will make that much progress in one run, I'm pretty certain that no-one is clearing aq40 or naxx in the first raid. I just don't see it being possible. I don't think there will be enough gear spread. enough time has passed to melt bwl but I think the latter half of aq40 will require more than just farming bwl to death. its going to require several raids through there until ppl have the pieces they need to finish it. likewise with naxx, you'll have to farm a certain amount of t3 before you're able to do kel'thuzad.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2020-01-07 at 04:51 AM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    The best thing about Naxx is that everyone has already seen it and crushed it in WotLK. It'll prob be easier than the 10 man version tbh.
    Naxxramas 60 is a bit different than 80. A number of the bosses work completely differently. I don't think 40-man Naxxramas will be outrageously difficult or anything but it's going to be a lot harder than 10-man Naxxramas if that's your experience.

    I still remember in WOTLK people talked about Grobbulus being the hardest boss in 10-man, when he was the easiest boss in 40-man. But Grobbulus is the only boss that works basically the same.

    Notably most of the bosses are immune to taunt. This is a huge deal on a boss like Maexxna where the raid is stunned for 8 seconds, if the tank dies it's a wipe on 40. Other tanks won't be able to keep up on threat with no rage. If the tank died to the 4 second stun in 10-man Naxxramas you just shrug and taunt her. Also at 60 you can only have one of each HoT on the tank at a time.

    The main strategy in 10-man Naxxramas on Anub'Rekhan was to have the tank just eat the Locust Swarm in place. The Locust Swarm hits for well over the tank's maximum HP on 40-man so you are actually 100% required to kite the boss with a hunter.

    On Grand Widow Faerlina the rain of fire hits for 2k at level 60. 2.5k at level 80. HP is about 500% higher at level 80. Same with the poison bolt volley, the tuning difference is massive.

    Noth is similar, though the curse hits 40 players and one missed curse is a wipe. Taunt immunity matters a bit because of the blink and threat drop.

    Heigan teleports groups of five players into the tunnel before Loatheb at 60 and they have to run the gauntlet of trash back without dying. Also the dance is 27% faster at 60 (14 slime explosions vs 11 at 80).

    Loatheb rolled over at 80 but he's a massive DPS check at 60, probably the biggest one in the instance besides Kel'Thuzad. You get one beneficial spell per minute (buff, heals etc) rather than a window to heal every 20 seconds.

    Patchwerk uses 4 tanks at 60 instead of 2 in 10-man. It's a little trickier and a fairly big healing/tank check. It was definitely not much of a check at 80.

    Grobbulus is about the same. Easiest boss in the instance.

    Gluth has a much shorter enrage timer (5m30s) and being immune to taunt you have to tank swap without taunting for the mortal bite.

    Thaddius the polarity shifts kick in a bit faster. About the same fight though. He's actually tauntable unlike most Naxxramas bosses.

    Razuvious is pretty easy in either version. Mind controls can break from spell hit, mind.

    Gothik the Harvester is one of the hardest bosses at 60 and probably the easiest at 80. The tuning difference is pretty huge, you need to CC (polymorph/shackle) tons of stuff to get through at 60 and I don't think anyone ever used CC at 80. Also minor difference, everything on the dead side is immune to magic at 60. Importantly, you've got no misdirect or tricks of the trade and your aoe threat sucks too.

    Four Horsemen is a completely different fight. All of the Horsemen are mobile and the marks last 75 seconds instead of 25 seconds, four marks is nearly death for most players, five will definitely kill. The Horsemen also shield wall for 20 seconds at 50% and 25% HP so zerging one down is completely impossible. You'll need a very organized strategy and keep it up without error for 10+ minutes. I remember at 80 the only strategy was zerg Thane then half-assedly switch between the Horsemen after that.

    Not only is Sapphiron a lot more harshly tuned at 60, your tools to AoE heal are much less. You've got Prayer of Healing, basically. No circle of healing, no wild growth no smart heals etc.

    Example of the tuning difference: The damage of frost aura is identical in 10-man and 40-man Naxxramas, but the players are 20 levels higher in 10-man.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sapphiron_...s)#Phase_one_2 1200 every 2 seconds in 10-man.
    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura 600 every 1 second in 40-man.


    Kel'Thuzad is quite different as well. Phase 1 lasts 5 minutes 10 seconds instead of 3 minutes, the 10-man version cuts out the last two minutes of more frequent spawns. Example of the phase 1 tuning difference, a skeleton exploding at 60 is 1750 unresistable shadow damage on the raid. At 80 it's 2500, but players have 20,000 HP instead of ~4k.

    Frost Blast has an extra tick at 60 (130% of max HP instead of 104%), chains infinitely instead of stopping after jumping to one player, and again you lack instant AoE healing tools if melee get hit. The biggest difference is the Chains of Kel'Thuzad which mind control 5 people, always target the main tank and wipe threat forcing a tank switch and dps stop since he's immune to taunt. IIRC the 10-man version didn't even have a mind control. The cooldown on all of Kel'Thuzad's spells is also notably shorter. Example frost blast CD at 60 is 30 seconds, at 80 is 45 seconds.

    At 60 the Guardians of Icecrown also gain blood tap stacks on switching targets and when a player dies meaning the encounter can rapidly spiral out of control. They also hit much harder but can be CC'd by shackle undead, though if you CC more than 3 Kel'Thuzad dispels the shackles.

    I've done both and while 40-man Naxxramas isn't nearly as hard as modern mythic raids it's massively more difficult than 10-man Naxxramas, you'll see that when it comes out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post

    I do think that the best guilds will clear bwl in the first raid, while not every guild will make that much progress in one run, I'm pretty certain that no-one is clearing aq40 or naxx in the first raid. I just don't see it being possible. I don't think there will be enough gear spread. enough time has passed to melt bwl but I think the latter half of aq40 will require more than just farming bwl to death. its going to require several raids through there until ppl have the pieces they need to finish it. likewise with naxx, you'll have to farm a certain amount of t3 before you're able to do kel'thuzad.
    Private server guilds have cleared Naxxramas the first day, though they've all farmed it before and massively abuse world buffs and consumables to do so. That's kind of the thing about classic raiding, if you really try-hard you can trivialize content with random buffs that increase your damage by 300-400% when all stacked together.

    Also here's another fun tuning difference.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Four_Horse...ady_Blaumeux_2 2750 shadow damage per second Void Zones on people with 20,000 HP.

    Void Zone ticking for 4600+ a second (outright one shot on non-tanks) in the level 60 version (video doing it in Burning Crusade at level 70).



    Void Zone actually hits twice as hard in the version for players 20 levels lower.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2020-01-07 at 05:54 AM.

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