BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[arkanon]

snipidadoodaa

Whoa thats a lot of words, but MOSTLY pretty fair and accurate. The only thing i will mention, which is massive, is that you dont talk about MYTHIC raiding, which is what i was specifically talking about - hardest content compared to hardest content - like for like. The point i have tried to make numerous times is that the demands of mid range mythic raiding is substantially higher than heroic - its a HUGE leap in time required, and obviously in difficulty too.

Looking at the character you link in your sig, you do LFR a lot, and over the years have dabbled in normal, and even got a few bosses down in heroic. I see what i assume are mythic runs you have purchased (1 kill of each boss only), which is perfectly fine by me, no problem at all. But it does suggest you might not be experienced in mythic raiding, which would explain why you avoid the subject.

The hours mid-high end mythic raiders are putting in for weeks on end are causing people to quit - it has been a major issue for many guilds for quite some time now, 2 expansions to be specific. I do not see anything even close to that in classic - and so far, all the farming that people suggested would be mandatory has proven to not be required at all, and i think that pattern will continue - Certain fanbois scream and yell that the NEXT tier will crush everyone, and when it falls over day one and is being pugged within the first week, they will say "nonono, no one EVER said THIS tier was tough, its the NEXT raid that will destroy everyone!"

Until eventually, Naxx falls over like it absolutely will, and pugs will be clearing it within a week, and the same people will scream "no one EVER said vanilla raiding was hard, you just wait for BC though!"

[Nitros14]

Until eventually, Naxx falls over like it absolutely will, and pugs will be clearing it within a week, and the same people will scream "no one EVER said vanilla raiding was hard, you just wait for BC though!"

Early BC raiding was pretty stupid. Most of the bosses were bugged for months and before the Black Temple patch raid gear was low ilvl and barely better than blues. The one hour trash respawns were hilarious too. It's no coincidence a lot of the bosses that took the longest to kill were in early BC ( https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ed-the-longest ). Gruul before the shatter nerf and Magtheridon needing 20 orb clickers were interesting times.

We won't see any of that in BC classic though, it'll be the Sunwell patch where that early content was pretty easy.

Funny enough Black Temple and Hyjal were much, much easier than The Eye and Serpentshrine in those early patches. Black Temple is actually one of the easier raids they've ever released.


Also, I think you spoil a good case by overstating it. Naxxramas is nowhere near as hard as modern mythic raids, but I'm confident you won't find true trade chat pugs clearing it.

[arkanon]

Early BC raiding was pretty stupid. Most of the bosses were bugged for months and before the Black Temple patch raid gear was low ilvl and barely better than blues. The one hour trash respawns were hilarious too. It's no coincidence a lot of the bosses that took the longest to kill were in early BC ( https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ed-the-longest ). Gruul before the shatter nerf and Magtheridon needing 20 orb clickers were interesting times.

We won't see any of that in BC classic though, it'll be the Sunwell patch where that early content was pretty easy.

Funny enough Black Temple and Hyjal were much, much easier than The Eye and Serpentshrine in those early patches. Black Temple is actually one of the easier raids they've ever released.

Difficulty was all over the place in BC, and bosses changed pretty dramatically over the coarse of the expac. I do fondly remember avoidance tanking Gruul until you could only see his shins and the rest of him was through the roof. Good times.

[Vakna]

But hes correct and each will be cleared within the week of their release (and access).

You mean the day.

[Heathy]

Whoa thats a lot of words, but MOSTLY pretty fair and accurate. The only thing i will mention, which is massive, is that you dont talk about MYTHIC raiding, which is what i was specifically talking about - hardest content compared to hardest content - like for like. The point i have tried to make numerous times is that the demands of mid range mythic raiding is substantially higher than heroic - its a HUGE leap in time required, and obviously in difficulty too.

Looking at the character you link in your sig, you do LFR a lot, and over the years have dabbled in normal, and even got a few bosses down in heroic. I see what i assume are mythic runs you have purchased (1 kill of each boss only), which is perfectly fine by me, no problem at all. But it does suggest you might not be experienced in mythic raiding, which would explain why you avoid the subject.

The hours mid-high end mythic raiders are putting in for weeks on end are causing people to quit - it has been a major issue for many guilds for quite some time now, 2 expansions to be specific. I do not see anything even close to that in classic - and so far, all the farming that people suggested would be mandatory has proven to not be required at all, and i think that pattern will continue - Certain fanbois scream and yell that the NEXT tier will crush everyone, and when it falls over day one and is being pugged within the first week, they will say "nonono, no one EVER said THIS tier was tough, its the NEXT raid that will destroy everyone!"

Until eventually, Naxx falls over like it absolutely will, and pugs will be clearing it within a week, and the same people will scream "no one EVER said vanilla raiding was hard, you just wait for BC though!"

no I just didn't bother pushing for it, my bro has done more mythic than I have, I never had the skill maybe or the patience to sit there wiping over and over and over. some of the added mechanics just seem to be things that are very difficult to control, as a healer i spend most of my time looking at health bars and when a fight requires you to constantly move and watch out for several different mechanics it makes my job harder and harder as some fights you can end up doing nothing for 10-20 seconds and just avoiding mechanics, or getting hit by mechanics that force you to heal yourself. theres a lot of nuance, most of the ppl i've played with were good players but didn't have the time to dedicate to wiping for a whole raid.

i've never bought any runs anything i've done has been with ppl i've known since classic, ppl who i did molten core and bwl with back then, or pugs. everything i did in bfa was 100% pugging.

it is the time requirement, and the overall atmosphere ppl wanna down bosses but they are tuned to such a degree that singular fails can't happen, which puts a strict upper bound on the type of player that will want to try it. i've known many good players but I doubt they would be that great in mythic because the pressure is too much. the chance of failures too high. when you are in that environment its not always constructive it only takes one person to start talking shit and throwing the blame around and pointing fingers to kill the whole thing. in a casual way, if i just randomly joined a 19 man raid, willing to wipe for 6hrs on some boss and there was no judgements, i'd probably give it a go, but i'm just not interested in making the game a job. and it usually isn't this way, everyone expect 110% and i'm usually willing to do my 100% the game is meant to be fun and mythic raiding just seems stressful to me so i've mostly just avoided it.

tbh i haven't played retail in a non-casual way since legion, i've just been casually messing around since then. i don't think i've logged into it for a couple months, mostly just been logging into classic to raid. I kinda prefer the longer burns, its slow, but i guess it feels more like one long journey rather than a series of destinations.

I don't think ppl will pug that much past t2, it just doesn't seem likely that you're going to find enough non-guilded, geared players, even when zg comes out, and aq20, those will get pugged no doubt, but there is going to come a point where the logistics is too much to just throw a random 40 ppl together out the trade chat and rofl stomp aq40 and naxx. I can't see ppl getting the gear to be able to be useful. if they do its going to take a lot of pugging. the benefit of raiding with a single guild is that eventually everyone has the gear, but pugs never reach a point where no one needs the gear. so in a guild you can eventually get an item through simply being the last person that needs it, but that will likely never be the case for pugging. which will make it very difficult to pug a whole set of gear that will make you useful past bwl. you're just constantly going to be in fresh pugs with fresh alts needing the same stuff you need. which is going to drastically increase the time it takes to gear up. unless you can roll 100 whenever you want.

I guess i think that, mythic raiding also isn't impossible, what it is, is time consuming to an obnoxious degree. the time it takes to finally have the stars align and everything go the way it has to go, because the tuning is too tight for anything else. its fine for those who want to push what is possible and test their skill, most ppl don't need mythic gear for anything, assuming you are doing pve, you can use the lower ilvl gear to get higher ilvl gear but at mythic there is no better gear so it sorta has no real point other than what you make of it. I'd run normal to gear up for heroic, and heroic to gear up for mythic, but then you reach the end, what do you need mythic gear for? nothing. which sorta defeats the point of spending weeks wiping on single bosses when the gear is useless anyway. you only need heroic gear to progress through heroic, so if you've chosen heroic as your difficulty, you don't need mythic gear for anything. because the gear you get from normal and heroic of the previous tier is enough to allow you to progress through the current tier. i've always felt that heroic was just hard enough for it to not be obnoxious normal is too easy ofc but heroic tends to be just hard enough that wipes happen, but not too hard that those lesser skilled players are completely excluded.

I know i can do mythic content if i had the time to practise it, but i don't. i'd say this is the same for any player though, if you wipe on something enough times, eventually its going to fall into place. this just takes longer for some than it does others.

I suppose I would say that most of the content throughout has been heroic level of difficulty at least when there was no heroic, 10 and 25 were like normal and heroic. mythic is an entirely new level of difficulty that goes beyond hard modes like those in wrath. its tuned more than that. but if the goal is to see the content, you don't need to spend mythic raider levels of time to achieve that. because you can see that same content in heroic, minus its extra mythic mechanic. it would make sense if mythic was the only thing that matters but ultimately it isn't as not everyone is doing it. to the ppl running it, it might be, but to everyone else, only their chosen difficulty matters. this would have been the same in wrath, those guilds running only 10 mans, likely didn't care much about 25 because it just wasn't something they were doing, but they still were able to see the content and likely cleared it quicker.

for those dudes who find themselves destroying heroic, mythic is great as something to move into if you happen to be in that situation, but i wouldn't say its the staple difficulty by which everything else should be measured by. the base difficulty at least mechanically has scaled over time, the game got harder with each expansion there is no doubt about that. it seems fairer to compare the differences between the difficulty of content that is run by the majority, most ppl I would wager stop at heroic, with mythic being the top 1%. there isn't anything in classic that really compares with mythic as it was added much much later when that tier of difficulty was desired by those who found heroic lacking.

one thing i'm doing this time around which I didn't do the first time is this thunderfury farming, 100 arcanite crystals. this is a real grind. i've been running around the epl and the burning steppes between AV fires and i've not found a single one in the last 3 days. but i've mined more than 30 rich veins (a lot of other ppl are also running around doing the same thing). if i have to farm all these crystals myself with no help, it could take me a long long time. at this rate i don't see me finishing it before phase 5. its likely going to take me months and months to gather these crystals. (after typing this bit I got 1 yay 97 left to go )

[Kanariya]

The little content that Classic has is piss easy, this isn't news to anyone.

Okay no. The content may be easy, but claiming that it's a small amount is objectively wrong. Classic has more endgame content in it than any expansion has ever offered.

Even if you just look at the raids for example, Classic boasts 7 Raids with a combined 58 bosses, and an additional 7 world bosses. We have expansions now that don't even have half that amount and they've lasted longer. Not to mention every single raid has replay value and remains relevant throughout the entire lifespan of Classic. You don't do any raid that isn't EP in BfA because it's not only a waste of time, but even world quests give better gear. That's sad huh?

[Gref]

no fucking pug will be clearing mc in 60mins. forget that. arkanon is a troll. simple as that.
without consumables? buffs? no wipes and no communication.

imfuckingpossible.

my guild gets better every week. first we would clear half of it in 4 hours, later we could reach executus in 4 hours and leave the rag for the next day.
now we are getting on rag in 4 hours and downed him to %22. And we use consumables. other world buuffs.

we are not pro or anything. everybody has family and kids, pretty laid back and mostly people between the ages 30-50.


and then arkanon says a pug, will clear all mc in 60 mins without a leader communicating. not even fucking close. if so we must be the most retarded players in the whole wow player base. tho we are not. and the RANDOM pugs must be all mighty kings of wow destroyer of gods kind of players.
RANDOMLY. 40 of them.

others are explaining you nicely point by point, but i will directly say;

fuck off.

you just like shitting both on retail and classic. stop it and get some help. everything you say is always some negative about wow.

[Biomega]

no fucking pug will be clearing mc in 60mins. forget that. arkanon is a troll. simple as that.
without consumables? buffs? no wipes and no communication.

imfuckingpossible.

my guild gets better every week. first we would clear half of it in 4 hours, later we could reach executus in 4 hours and leave the rag for the next day.
now we are getting on rag in 4 hours and downed him to %22. And we use consumables. other world buuffs.

we are not pro or anything. everybody has family and kids, pretty laid back and mostly people between the ages 30-50.


and then arkanon says a pug, will clear all mc in 60 mins without a leader communicating. not even fucking close. if so we must be the most retarded players in the whole wow player base. tho we are not. and the RANDOM pugs must be all mighty kings of wow destroyer of gods kind of players.
RANDOMLY. 40 of them.

others are explaining you nicely point by point, but i will directly say;

fuck off.

you just like shitting both on retail and classic. stop it and get some help. everything you say is always some negative about wow.

"We can't do it, therefore it must be impossible!"

That's how these ridiculous ideas like Classic ever being a challenge come about. There's PUGs, and then there's PUGs. Will any collection of random 60s picked off the street clear MC in an hour? No. Can a PUG put together with some thought and vetting clear MC in an hour? Yes.

[Gref]

"We can't do it, therefore it must be impossible!"

That's how these ridiculous ideas like Classic ever being a challenge come about. There's PUGs, and then there's PUGs. Will any collection of random 60s picked off the street clear MC in an hour? No. Can a PUG put together with some thought and vetting clear MC in an hour? Yes.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Classic is not hard. But he insists 40 random, I mean completely random, without leadership will clear mc in 60 minutes. You can have the ideal setup at the start, but people will die, ressing, buffing and not to mention without communication people will pull agro from left and right and wipe.

You can clear mc with pugs, if you have a vetting process and have come. I don't deny that

[nyc81991]

Well yeah... Nothing is actually hard in Classic at this point. At worst things are just a big time investment.

[Biomega]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

No it isn't. What you said, exactly, is "no fucking pug" - not "no pug that's completely random, without leadership and without communication".

But in any event, it's completely beside the point. Classic difficulty is an absolute joke. And that's fine, it's meant for a different target audience.

[Lolites]

Yes, but some people need to gloat over it in hopes of "proving" Classic is bad.

i would say its more like proving those people who were flooding forums with posts how difficult the classic will be and how it will take MONTHS (i actualy seen threads like that) to clear molten core that they were delusional and/or full of shit...
but ofc some use it as "excuse" why classic is bad, same as some people use any bullshit they want (even if its completely off topic) to "prove" retail is bad... some people are just morons who cant let others enjoy something bcs they dont enjoy it

[Caperfin]

No it isn't. What you said, exactly, is "no fucking pug" - not "no pug that's completely random, without leadership and without communication".

But in any event, it's completely beside the point. Classic difficulty is an absolute joke. And that's fine, it's meant for a different target audience.

If you thought Classic is easy, wait t'ill you play TBC.

[Nite92]

Within the first few weeks of MC, people were already doing enough DPS to down Patchwerk. Gonna be really fun to see how high people go and how short fights will be with BiS naxx gear.

Yes, only that the fights took 30s and they pulled adds ontop of the boss instead of a 6 (?) min ST fight.

I am not saying that naxx will take weeks to clear, you are just comparing the not comparable.

[OriginalName]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Classic is not hard. But he insists 40 random, I mean completely random, without leadership will clear mc in 60 minutes. You can have the ideal setup at the start, but people will die, ressing, buffing and not to mention without communication people will pull agro from left and right and wipe.

You can clear mc with pugs, if you have a vetting process and have come. I don't deny that

"We can't do it, therefore it must be impossible!"

That's how these ridiculous ideas like Classic ever being a challenge come about. There's PUGs, and then there's PUGs. Will any collection of random 60s picked off the street clear MC in an hour? No. Can a PUG put together with some thought and vetting clear MC in an hour? Yes.

Cadet (from APES) on Gehennas EU, has run a weekly pug group ever since his pserver days and now in classic its ran essentially how a good guild runs MC, with a sheet, somewhat of a vetting process and requirement for consumables still don't do it under an hour simply because getting 40 strangers together is going to have an impact on your groups performance even if there are 0 wipes and everyone knows what to do beforehand.

[Biomega]

If you thought Classic is easy, wait t'ill you play TBC.

If you thought TBC is easy wait till you play WotLK.

If you thought WotLK is easy wait till you play Cataclysm.

If you thought Cataclysm is easy...

[Caperfin]

If you thought TBC is easy wait till you play WotLK.

If you thought WotLK is easy wait till you play Cataclysm.

If you thought Cataclysm is easy...

TBC is on a whole different level of "trivialisation" because of the introduction of sockets and paladin on horde among other things. I can speak about this subject to great lengths, since my whole thing is to intentionally make the game hard. The amount you need to get stuff done in TBC is abysmally easy/low. The bump of approachability from original wow to TBC is insane, you go from being hit with a pillow to having air blown in your face.

[Nitros14]

"We can't do it, therefore it must be impossible!"

That's how these ridiculous ideas like Classic ever being a challenge come about. There's PUGs, and then there's PUGs. Will any collection of random 60s picked off the street clear MC in an hour? No. Can a PUG put together with some thought and vetting clear MC in an hour? Yes.

That wouldn't be anything like your average pug. I mean my guild has cleared Molten Core maybe 15 times now and we clear it in 2 hours with zero wipes and not much wasted time. Very good guilds optimizing the shit out of things and mass pulling trash still take 40 minutes to clear. The world record is still like 25 minutes.

There's 7800 Molten Core clears on warcraft logs and only 530 of them are an hour or less.

[Jurwi]

"We can't do it, therefore it must be impossible!"

That's how these ridiculous ideas like Classic ever being a challenge come about. There's PUGs, and then there's PUGs. Will any collection of random 60s picked off the street clear MC in an hour? No. Can a PUG put together with some thought and vetting clear MC in an hour? Yes.

It's hardly a PUG if you take 20/20 people from 2 most hardcore raiding guilds in the server, which is probably more or less what you're thinking of.

I mean, of course it's possible. Anything is possible. But I'll believe it will actually happen (or has happened) when you throw us some proof.

[Echocho]

Okay no. The content may be easy, but claiming that it's a small amount is objectively wrong. Classic has more endgame content in it than any expansion has ever offered.

Even if you just look at the raids for example, Classic boasts 7 Raids with a combined 58 bosses, and an additional 7 world bosses. We have expansions now that don't even have half that amount and they've lasted longer. Not to mention every single raid has replay value and remains relevant throughout the entire lifespan of Classic. You don't do any raid that isn't EP in BfA because it's not only a waste of time, but even world quests give better gear. That's sad huh?

If raiding is all you consider content sure, but I actually like doing other things than raiding and so do a lot of people.
Classic has a lot of front loaded content but once you get past a certain point there is nothing to do except raid log. In every single expansion they have always added things that give you a reason to log in other than to raid (or PvP if you're in to that).

I'm sorry but take away the raids and Classic has nothing to offer a PVE player at max level for more than a month, maybe two if you're a casual player.