Iranian General Sulemain and others reported killed in Baghdad airstrike

[Mormolyce]

Protecting your borders isn't cruelty. It's the only sane thing to do.

You're not talking about protecting borders, what you suggested wouldn't do any of that. You're suggesting performative cruelty because you like it.

[Katie N]

And again, the shooting at the border massacre and the casual way Asians say these things...

Stop complaining about them if you don't want to do something about it.

[Slant]

Stop complaining about them if you don't want to do something about it.

Stop talking about things you don't understand. See, simplistic one liners work both ways.

[Katie N]

Stop talking about things you don't understand. See, simplistic one liners work both ways.

I understand it just fine. You just don't want to do what it takes to stop it out of wanting to portray yourself sitting on some moral high horse but it's fine to complain about it, as long as you don't take any action against it. If you take action to stop it, you're the bad person according to you. xD

[Slant]

I understand it just fine. You just don't want to do what it takes to stop it out of wanting to portray yourself sitting on some moral high horse but it's fine to complain about it, as long as you don't take any action against it. If you take action to stop it, you're the bad person according to you. xD

I get it, you would just want to shoot people because you have zero regard for human life. And problems like this are probably too complicated for you to deal with. So I'll put you on ignore now, because I really have no patience for third world opinions right now. See ya!

[Skroe]

Nobody wants to invade Moscow. Slow down lol.

My point is that US is in the right to kill that Iranian general, as it is when it will strike again against Iran for launching the missiles last night. Diplomatic efforts come afterwards when the power disparity has been established and Iran knows its place.

My other point is that people need to calm the fuck down and stop hyperventilating about WW3 every time someone shoots a missile. Reminding countries like Iran, China and Russia that they don't get away with everything is exactly how we will avoid WW3.

The galling thing about the last few days is the number of people who talked real tough about getting back at Russia for election interference in 2016 one day, or pushing hard back against chinese expansionism, starting to prepare for the end of the world because the US dared kill one Iranian.

If the US isn't able to deter Iran without people pissing their pants and losing their minds about consequences, how the hell is it supposed to do the same versus Russia and China?

There is a huge logical hole here. Comparatively Iran is easy mode. Deterring Iran is a lot easier than deterring China and Russia. A war against Iran - the worst case scenario - will lead to thousands of Americans dead and tens of thousands of Iranians. A war against China would lead to tens of thousands on both sides. Against Russia... tens of millions on both sides.

So we spend 4 years talking up a big show about deterring China and Russia and teaching ol' Vlad the Invader a thing or two by imposing cost and consequences, and then when we ACTUALLY do that in EZ-mode Iran, EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MINDS_@(^&$@

To me the issue here isn't Soleimani, or the potentiality for war (which is remote) or the actual tit for tat. It's the psychology. I said this days ago. It's the psychology of the West, which is so used to taking hits and rationalizing about never imposing consequences (and why consequences are always bad!), that the one time one country actually imposes consequences, it feels like a seismic change just came to the world.

The US did this every 2 to 3 years for 50 years and we won the cold war off of it. If we want to win the next Cold War, we need to get back to a healthy prudence and away from whatever the fuck madness this is. If we don't do that, we might as well just sell out to Russia and China now, and move to an island somewhere. Just not in the South China Sea, because that's a Chinese Communist lake now, since we didn't impose consequences there either.

[Cerilis]

If only you would actually focus on imposing consequences in the South China Sea and not play the bully in the sandbox again...

[Slant]

The galling thing about the last few days is the number of people who talked real tough about getting back at Russia for election interference in 2016 one day, or pushing hard back against chinese expansionism, starting to prepare for the end of the world because the US dared kill one Iranian.

If the US isn't able to deter Iran without people pissing their pants and losing their minds about consequences, how the hell is it supposed to do the same versus Russia and China?

There is a huge logical hole here. Comparatively Iran is easy mode. Deterring Iran is a lot easier than deterring China and Russia. A war against Iran - the worst case scenario - will lead to thousands of Americans dead and tens of thousands of Iranians. A war against China would lead to tens of thousands on both sides. Against Russia... tens of millions on both sides.

So we spend 4 years talking up a big show about deterring China and Russia and teaching ol' Vlad the Invader a thing or two by imposing cost and consequences, and then when we ACTUALLY do that in EZ-mode Iran, EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MINDS_@(^&$@

To me the issue here isn't Soleimani, or the potentiality for war (which is remote) or the actual tit for tat. It's the psychology. I said this days ago. It's the psychology of the West, which is so used to taking hits and rationalizing about never imposing consequences (and why consequences are always bad!), that the one time one country actually imposes consequences, it feels like a seismic change just came to the world.

The US did this every 2 to 3 years for 50 years and we won the cold war off of it. If we want to win the next Cold War, we need to get back to a healthy prudence and away from whatever the fuck madness this is. If we don't do that, we might as well just sell out to Russia and China now, and move to an island somewhere. Just not in the South China Sea, because that's a Chinese Communist lake now, since we didn't impose consequences there either.

Ok, so here's the problem with your philosophy..

The US isn't man enough to actually do anything about it. See, in Europe we realised... Russia isn't magically going to vanish from the map. While you have the luxury of being practically an island on your own, Europe has a big ass border to Russia. We actually have to live with them as neighbours.

So, unless you finally man up, start WW3 and actually wipe them off the planet, they AND China are here to stay. On this one planet. So, all this bullshit talking about new Cold Wars? What is it you want to achieve? Because the last time you won a Cold War had exactly ZERO effect by now. Russia's still a dick to everyone, China still ignores whatever the US says, because why not...

So, instead of doing another decade or two of bullshit proxy wars that destabilize country after country, because you couldn't give less of a fuck about anyone but the US, how about you grow some balls and end the shitshow right here, right now. Go invade Russia, kill everyone of them until you're finally rid of your mortal enemy. How about it, do you dare? Fucking pussy... Do it. DO IT!

Yeah, I'm calling you out on your bullshit. Everything you just said justifies everything Putin is doing. You are, in fact, doing a better job at destabilising my trust in NATO and the US than any Russian trollbot.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree that everything that happens under Trump's "leadership" is tainted by default (as it kinda should be). I disagree that it was random. Actual professionals made a list of options and presented it to Trump, as is their job, and Trump chose this option. Under any other US president, this would be seen as far less random incident. And know what? Those professionals who presented the options to Trump were absolutely in the right to do so, expecting Trump might choose the option he did.

So, a list of options and the President randomly picks the one target everyone hoped he wouldn't pick. How is this not random and arbitrary?

[Katie N]

If only you would actually focus on imposing consequences in the South China Sea and not play the bully in the sandbox again...

They should have done that a long time ago. It's too late now.

[Slant]

Fun fact, Merkel is meeting with Putin sometime these days. The idea seems to be that meeting with even Putin is going to be more productive than talking to our closest ally in NATO. That's how bad the relationship to the US is these days.

Skroe, that is happening because of ONE mercenary. I will make a point of reminding you of that.

Edit: Corrected, since it's not actually right this minute. :P

[Ihavewaffles]

Putin is in turkey now, launching turkstream pipeline

[Rumred]

Ok, so here's the problem with your philosophy..

The US isn't man enough to actually do anything about it. See, in Europe we realised... Russia isn't magically going to vanish from the map. While you have the luxury of being practically an island on your own, Europe has a big ass border to Russia. We actually have to live with them as neighbours.

So, unless you finally man up, start WW3 and actually wipe them off the planet, they AND China are here to stay. On this one planet. So, all this bullshit talking about new Cold Wars? What is it you want to achieve? Because the last time you won a Cold War had exactly ZERO effect by now. Russia's still a dick to everyone, China still ignores whatever the US says, because why not...

So, instead of doing another decade or two of bullshit proxy wars that destabilize country after country, because you couldn't give less of a fuck about anyone but the US, how about you grow some balls and end the shitshow right here, right now. Go invade Russia, kill everyone of them until you're finally rid of your mortal enemy. How about it, do you dare? Fucking pussy... Do it. DO IT!

Yeah, I'm calling you out on your bullshit. Everything you just said justifies everything Putin is doing. You are, in fact, doing a better job at destabilising my trust in NATO and the US than any Russian trollbot.

- - - Updated - - -



So, a list of options and the President randomly picks the one target everyone hoped he wouldn't pick. How is this not random and arbitrary?

Ranting like a fourteen-year-old boy in the locker room going “You won’t do it pussy” is just going to make your arguments come across as childish at best. Also, no the cold war did have an effect as Russia is now having to be a dick much further east as opposed to the cold war when it the majority of eastern Europe under its thumb.

[Dextroden]

Man. This thread is great when you remember Skroe lied and said he was against being an interventionalist. But, here we are. As dedicated to shock and awe as our president is.

Everyone remind Skroe how proud Trump is for that support.

[Slant]

Ranting like a fourteen-year-old boy in the locker room going “You won’t do it pussy” is just going to make your arguments come across as childish at best. Also, no the cold war did have an effect as Russia is now having to be a dick much further east as opposed to the cold war when it the majority of eastern Europe under its thumb.

Yes, and Eastern Europe is mooching off Western Europe and NATO. Good job. Really, that improved things a lot over here. Not. So what's the next step? What do they actually want to achieve? Because anything the US does these days is just uniting the enemies even more, strengthening their resolve, because everything they claim the US has been doing and I actually defended the US for doing is exactly what the US is doing. Antagonizing, being imperialistic in policies... it's ridiculous. If a Russian came to may today and said "See? This is why we have to defend ourselves!" I wouldn't know what to say to him...

The US is destroying any argument I have about the Western ideals, human rights, law and order, justice and ethics. They trample all of those with their feet. Liberties? Fuck that, liberties only count if you are the right nationality.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't believe for one second that the people who come up with those plans just make them for shits and giggles. Someone who knows strategy did the math and presented those options as all viable. Trump made the call because in healthy (even the current state of affairs in the US falls within the broadest definition of this) democracy it is the civilian leadership that tells the military what to do.

If this was done and authorized purely by and within the US military I would be shitting my pants right now.

No, I'm not saying he's not a bad dude. What I'm saying that you can't just go into sovereign nations and kill dudes you have on a list arbitrarily. Even if it is justified that they were on a list. They violated Iraqi sovereignity. Not that the US ever gave a shit about Iraqi sovereignity, but still...

[Skroe]

Ok, so here's the problem with your philosophy..

The US isn't man enough to actually do anything about it. See, in Europe we realised... Russia isn't magically going to vanish from the map. While you have the luxury of being practically an island on your own, Europe has a big ass border to Russia. We actually have to live with them as neighbours.

So, unless you finally man up, start WW3 and actually wipe them off the planet, they AND China are here to stay. On this one planet. So, all this bullshit talking about new Cold Wars? What is it you want to achieve? Because the last time you won a Cold War had exactly ZERO effect by now. Russia's still a dick to everyone, China still ignores whatever the US says, because why not...

So, instead of doing another decade or two of bullshit proxy wars that destabilize country after country, because you couldn't give less of a fuck about anyone but the US, how about you grow some balls and end the shitshow right here, right now. Go invade Russia, kill everyone of them until you're finally rid of your mortal enemy. How about it, do you dare? Fucking pussy... Do it. DO IT!

Yeah, I'm calling you out on your bullshit. Everything you just said justifies everything Putin is doing. You are, in fact, doing a better job at destabilising my trust in NATO and the US than any Russian trollbot.

Here's the thing. The US actually is "man" enough. That's where you're mistaken. If Russia did something suitably aggressive enough, the US would absolutely wipe them off the face of the Earth. And from a technical perspective, not to start this discussion, there is a pretty good chance we could get away with it.

Should we though? Of course not. Nobody here has any interest in destroying an entire civilization and killing 140 million people. That's insane. But "man enough to do it". The scenario would drive that. If Russia presented an active existential threat to the US, that'd be it. It would do it. I know it's fashionable among the internet crowd to think the US buys its stealth weapons to feed the M-I-C. No. It really is spending a trillion dollars over the next 20 years to make sure that World War III under certain secnarios could very much have a "winner" per se (for the ashes of the earth that is).

The thing is, you're almost alone in your denial of the New Cold War, which is here, and is a way of encapsulating the multi-spectrum US-China geopolitical competition. China wants what the US has. The US will not give it up and we're going to compete in every domain, especially militarily. And what's the outcome? Mastery of the international order and the right to shape it. Until win? The Cold War after that.

There is no end to this. This is history. It's an old internet saying, mostly as a snarky anti-US comment "all empires fall" or something like that. Yeah it could be this Cold War versus China. Or it could be the next Cold War versus Nationalist India. Or it could be the hot war after that against United Latin America. Who the hell knows. The future isn't written. The 22nd, 23rd and 24th century will have geopolitical history every bit as complex and dramatic as the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Hopefully without someone dropping a nuclear weapon somewhere.

Point being there is never any "end state". There is only the never ending struggle to stay on top until the next contender comes along. Who knows, in 100 years, it may be a different Europe looking to knock the US off of it. And then 75 years after that, the US invades Europe and changes the system. It sounds ridiculous, but look at the history of the world - is that any stranger than how relations and alliances and power in the world changed in the past? It is not at all. It's entirely consistent with it.

This goes on forever, until there is some kind of final settlement as the Earth's geopolitical status. Francis Fukuyama foolishly thought we had reached it with the end of the Cold War. He is not the first and not the last person to make that mistake. There is never an end to history. Only more history. It is the failure of our civilization that we are born, we live about 8 decades, and then we die, and within a few generations memory of the suffering of those decades fades and the tragedy repeats itself.


For the record, I don't begrudge Putin for his mischief. I am outraged that he did it. But not why he did it. The why is perfectly rational from a certain point of view. Because he gets this. He is not a stupid man. In many ways, he's way smarter than the svelte and erudite European politicos and values-driven American Presidents he's taken to the shed for the past 20 years. He knows that barring the US nuking his country, something called Russia will continue to exist for centuries to come. It's borders will expand and contract. Its political and economic nature might change. It's relationships will change. But he is a Russian and believes Russians are a people of destiny, a destiny to rule an empire in Eurasia. And as a patriotic Russian he is doing what he sees is in Russia's best interest to become a great power again to be positioned optimally for the next cycle of geopolitical conflict, that is becomes top dog again. Because that is a potential outcome - the US and China exhaust itself in the New Cold War, and the EU and Russia are dominant in the late 21st / early 22nd century. He may not think precisely in those terms, but he is acting in a way that is historically consistent with long term imperial power building. He could be a latter day Catherine the Great.

So is what Putin and Russia doing justified? From the perspective of what I just wrote... yes... that is probably the correct things to do if your plan is to build Russia as a great power. Is it compatible with US / EU interests? Not all. But that isn't his concern, because his ultimate goal is to displace us.

Your worldview is basically doomed to a narrow slice in time that is deep in its sunset, and that's the problem you're facing... all of Europe really... because it wants to contribute to what comes next but finds it has few avenues to do so. Cooperation is not the keyword of the 21st century. Competition is.

Case in point, 20 years ago, our allies breaking with us on this would have been a much bigger deal than today. Today it is not, because Europe is not what it was 20 years ago, despite the EU.

[Poe]

What time is Trump giving his statement to the public ?

[Slant]

Here's the thing. The US actually is "man" enough. That's where you're mistaken. If Russia did something suitably aggressive enough, the US would absolutely wipe them off the face of the Earth. And from a technical perspective, not to start this discussion, there is a pretty good chance we could get away with it.

Should we though? Of course not. Nobody here has any interest in destroying an entire civilization and killing 140 million people. That's insane. But "man enough to do it". The scenario would drive that. If Russia presented an active existential threat to the US, that'd be it. It would do it. I know it's fashionable among the internet crowd to think the US buys its stealth weapons to feed the M-I-C. No. It really is spending a trillion dollars over the next 20 years to make sure that World War III under certain secnarios could very much have a "winner" per se (for the ashes of the earth that is).

The thing is, you're almost alone in your denial of the New Cold War, which is here, and is a way of encapsulating the multi-spectrum US-China geopolitical competition. China wants what the US has. The US will not give it up and we're going to compete in every domain, especially militarily. And what's the outcome? Mastery of the international order and the right to shape it. Until win? The Cold War after that.

There is no end to this. This is history. It's an old internet saying, mostly as a snarky anti-US comment "all empires fall" or something like that. Yeah it could be this Cold War versus China. Or it could be the next Cold War versus Nationalist India. Or it could be the hot war after that against United Latin America. Who the hell knows. The future isn't written. The 22nd, 23rd and 24th century will have geopolitical history every bit as complex and dramatic as the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Hopefully without someone dropping a nuclear weapon somewhere.

Point being there is never any "end state". There is only the never ending struggle to stay on top until the next contender comes along. Who knows, in 100 years, it may be a different Europe looking to knock the US off of it. And then 75 years after that, the US invades Europe and changes the system. It sounds ridiculous, but look at the history of the world - is that any stranger than how relations and alliances and power in the world changed in the past? It is not at all. It's entirely consistent with it.

This goes on forever, until there is some kind of final settlement as the Earth's geopolitical status. Francis Fukuyama foolishly thought we had reached it with the end of the Cold War. He is not the first and not the last person to make that mistake. There is never an end to history. Only more history. It is the failure of our civilization that we are born, we live about 8 decades, and then we die, and within a few generations memory of the suffering of those decades fades and the tragedy repeats itself.


For the record, I don't begrudge Putin for his mischief. I am outraged that he did it. But not why he did it. The why is perfectly rational from a certain point of view. Because he gets this. He is not a stupid man. In many ways, he's way smarter than the svelte and erudite European politicos and values-driven American Presidents he's taken to the shed for the past 20 years. He knows that barring the US nuking his country, something called Russia will continue to exist for centuries to come. It's borders will expand and contract. Its political and economic nature might change. It's relationships will change. But he is a Russian and believes Russians are a people of destiny, a destiny to rule an empire in Eurasia. And as a patriotic Russian he is doing what he sees is in Russia's best interest to become a great power again to be positioned optimally for the next cycle of geopolitical conflict, that is becomes top dog again. Because that is a potential outcome - the US and China exhaust itself in the New Cold War, and the EU and Russia are dominant in the late 21st / early 22nd century. He may not think precisely in those terms, but he is acting in a way that is historically consistent with long term imperial power building. He could be a latter day Catherine the Great.

So is what Putin and Russia doing justified? From the perspective of what I just wrote... yes... that is probably the correct things to do if your plan is to build Russia as a great power. Is it compatible with US / EU interests? Not all. But that isn't his concern, because his ultimate goal is to displace us.

Your worldview is basically doomed to a narrow slice in time that is deep in its sunset, and that's the problem you're facing... all of Europe really... because it wants to contribute to what comes next but finds it has few avenues to do so. Cooperation is not the keyword of the 21st century. Competition is.

Case in point, 20 years ago, our allies breaking with us on this would have been a much bigger deal than today. Today it is not, because Europe is not what it was 20 years ago, despite the EU.

Yeah, whatever.. you do you. We'll just keep on doing our things. And when you're isolated, we'll have a global trade network going with Europe at the centre of it. Mastery of the international order? You're master of none. You're not calling the shots in Europe. Don't forget that. And if you don't like it, you can go to hell. Take all your stuff with you.

[Skroe]

Fun fact, Merkel is meeting with Putin sometime these days. The idea seems to be that meeting with even Putin is going to be more productive than talking to our closest ally in NATO. That's how bad the relationship to the US is these days.

Skroe, that is happening because of ONE mercenary. I will make a point of reminding you of that.

Edit: Corrected, since it's not actually right this minute. :P

Okay, I hope she has fun there.

Seriously. Big Merkel fan here, but unless Europe has something positive to add that advances our interests, who cares.

Maybe they can have some photo-op or something we can all pretend is really important.

[Dextroden]

Here's the thing. The US actually is "man" enough. That's where you're mistaken. If Russia did something suitably aggressive enough, the US would absolutely wipe them off the face of the Earth. And from a technical perspective, not to start this discussion, there is a pretty good chance we could get away with it.

Should we though? Of course not. Nobody here has any interest in destroying an entire civilization and killing 140 million people. That's insane. But "man enough to do it". The scenario would drive that. If Russia presented an active existential threat to the US, that'd be it. It would do it. I know it's fashionable among the internet crowd to think the US buys its stealth weapons to feed the M-I-C. No. It really is spending a trillion dollars over the next 20 years to make sure that World War III under certain secnarios could very much have a "winner" per se (for the ashes of the earth that is).

The thing is, you're almost alone in your denial of the New Cold War, which is here, and is a way of encapsulating the multi-spectrum US-China geopolitical competition. China wants what the US has. The US will not give it up and we're going to compete in every domain, especially militarily. And what's the outcome? Mastery of the international order and the right to shape it. Until win? The Cold War after that.

There is no end to this. This is history. It's an old internet saying, mostly as a snarky anti-US comment "all empires fall" or something like that. Yeah it could be this Cold War versus China. Or it could be the next Cold War versus Nationalist India. Or it could be the hot war after that against United Latin America. Who the hell knows. The future isn't written. The 22nd, 23rd and 24th century will have geopolitical history every bit as complex and dramatic as the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Hopefully without someone dropping a nuclear weapon somewhere.

Point being there is never any "end state". There is only the never ending struggle to stay on top until the next contender comes along. Who knows, in 100 years, it may be a different Europe looking to knock the US off of it. And then 75 years after that, the US invades Europe and changes the system. It sounds ridiculous, but look at the history of the world - is that any stranger than how relations and alliances and power in the world changed in the past? It is not at all. It's entirely consistent with it.

This goes on forever, until there is some kind of final settlement as the Earth's geopolitical status. Francis Fukuyama foolishly thought we had reached it with the end of the Cold War. He is not the first and not the last person to make that mistake. There is never an end to history. Only more history. It is the failure of our civilization that we are born, we live about 8 decades, and then we die, and within a few generations memory of the suffering of those decades fades and the tragedy repeats itself.


For the record, I don't begrudge Putin for his mischief. I am outraged that he did it. But not why he did it. The why is perfectly rational from a certain point of view. Because he gets this. He is not a stupid man. In many ways, he's way smarter than the svelte and erudite European politicos and values-driven American Presidents he's taken to the shed for the past 20 years. He knows that barring the US nuking his country, something called Russia will continue to exist for centuries to come. It's borders will expand and contract. Its political and economic nature might change. It's relationships will change. But he is a Russian and believes Russians are a people of destiny, a destiny to rule an empire in Eurasia. And as a patriotic Russian he is doing what he sees is in Russia's best interest to become a great power again to be positioned optimally for the next cycle of geopolitical conflict, that is becomes top dog again. Because that is a potential outcome - the US and China exhaust itself in the New Cold War, and the EU and Russia are dominant in the late 21st / early 22nd century. He may not think precisely in those terms, but he is acting in a way that is historically consistent with long term imperial power building. He could be a latter day Catherine the Great.

So is what Putin and Russia doing justified? From the perspective of what I just wrote... yes... that is probably the correct things to do if your plan is to build Russia as a great power. Is it compatible with US / EU interests? Not all. But that isn't his concern, because his ultimate goal is to displace us.

Your worldview is basically doomed to a narrow slice in time that is deep in its sunset, and that's the problem you're facing... all of Europe really... because it wants to contribute to what comes next but finds it has few avenues to do so. Cooperation is not the keyword of the 21st century. Competition is.

Case in point, 20 years ago, our allies breaking with us on this would have been a much bigger deal than today. Today it is not, because Europe is not what it was 20 years ago, despite the EU.

I need to find that post where you swore up and down you didn't want a war with Russia. That Skroe and you fighting would be a glorious farce.

Or was that another lie from super nationalist man?

[Slant]

Okay, I hope she has fun there.

Seriously. Big Merkel fan here, but unless Europe has something positive to add that advances our interests, who cares.

Maybe they can have some photo-op or something we can all pretend is really important.

Europe doesn't need to advance YOUR interests. They're not there to do anything that would benefit YOU. They're not your henchmen. Merkel is going to Russia to do what's good for EUROPE.