Should bailing on a M+ group be penalized?

[123youshowme]

very rarely do people leave good groups.

my 2c

[klaps_05]

Certainly, but we should apply this for all game content:

Leave m+? No m+ for the rest of the reset.
Leave a raid? Raid essence removed and blocked from loot until reset.
Leave arena? Arena rating, MMR, games played and wins reset to 0 for the season.
Leave a world quest unfinished? All world quests removed from your map until reset.
Leave a pet battle? All pets you used removed from your character.
Leave a transmog run in an old raid? All transmog you have from that raid so far removed.
Leave a battleground? Honor levels reset to 1.
Leave an island expedition? Neck reset to level 50 and worldvein essence removed.
Leave an RBG? All titles removed, rating and MMR reset to 0.

There we go, now we can finally enjoy the game and nobody leaves anything.

[froschhure]

if you don't want others to leave your group, improve your skill.

good people in m+ leave, because its not in time any more. You want everyone to stay for your weekly? Open a group with "weekly" and invite people that def. need the run. Check their RIO. Complaining about the free choice of a different human being is cringe.

[Azerate]

Certainly, but we should apply this for all game content:

Leave m+? No m+ for the rest of the reset.
Leave a raid? Raid essence removed and blocked from loot until reset.
Leave arena? Arena rating, MMR, games played and wins reset to 0 for the season.
Leave a world quest unfinished? All world quests removed from your map until reset.
Leave a pet battle? All pets you used removed from your character.
Leave a transmog run in an old raid? All transmog you have from that raid so far removed.
Leave a battleground? Honor levels reset to 1.
Leave an island expedition? Neck reset to level 50 and worldvein essence removed.
Leave an RBG? All titles removed, rating and MMR reset to 0.

There we go, now we can finally enjoy the game and nobody leaves anything.

Out of all those, only like 2-3 are actually activities that automatically fail when someone leaves and you can't replace them. Leaving m+ included.

Also, idiotic penalties like "Removing everything"...not sure what the aim of this was, but if it was to prove that penalizing leaving m+ is nonsense than you most certainly failed.

[swatsonqt]

It would discourage people to leave groups. That is it. If someone has a high number of leavings, then it's obviously because it's some prick that usually bails at the first sign of trouble.
This isn't about people with 1-5 leavings, but about people with higher than that. Sure, a nr. of leavings can be justified, it happens, but when it's someone with a significant number, then it says something about that person.

And like I said, no one wants to rake up negative stats.

- - - Updated - - -



If it's checked by Raider.io, then people can see that the person is suspicious, and will avoid grouping up with that person.

So im doing +16 runs and i want to time it to increase my score.

My tank always pulls 4 to 5 packs at once because he thinks that this is a good idea.
We keep wiping.
My healer, a disc priest, thinks that shadow mend is his only real heal.
We keep wiping.

That might happen at the first few pulls or at the last.
Maybe you cant stay around for 3 hours to finish that key.

Why should there be a penalty for players who leave in such situations?
How do you want the system to determine wether you are a spoiled brat or if the others really are that bad that the key is undoable for that group composition?

I am not afriad to admit that i am a leaver.
Before the start of every dungeon i clearly ask what the goal of that key is.
If we want to time it and that will obviously not happen, im out.

And i really dont see why i should receive a penalty. In the end you signed up for a game mode where the goal is to clear a dungeon in a given time. If you obviously wont get to that goal what'S the point?

If you want runs to be finished for your weekly search for weekly keys.
IF you want runs for gearing search for that.

If it's a tyrannical week and you wipe to the first boss which takes ages due to high health it'S absolutely ok to leave if you made it clear what the goal is.
If you furthermore see beforehand at the trash and boss dps that you cant make the timer why waste the time?

In the end it'a a group activity. If you demand penalties for players who dont have the same mindset as you then you are probably also a little brat.

[Blackmist]

There are several frustrating elements of M+ that could actually be reworked to make it not so bad.

Failing the timer on a key just leaves you at the same key level. Could could still drop the level of a key on purpose. Maybe even have a place to take keys that reduces the level by one but gives you a random dungeon on it.

People could be replaced, but it immediately invalidates the timer. That way there's no real punishment for the rest of you when somebody unexpectedly drops group. The only person punished is them.

[brigada]

IF ''leaving'' a M+ will be punishable by whatever, they will either not leave and just AFK out (or do nothing until the rest is so annoyed that THEY leave) or ALT-F4 alltogether, then blame it on connection issues.

How to separate connection issues from leaving? Its not possible, only with a ranking system that shows how many times a player left m+ group (for whatever reason)

[Ange]

Failing the timer on a key just leaves you at the same key level. Could could still drop the level of a key on purpose.

WoW's M+ key system is the improved Diablo3 Greater Rift system. You are asking for a downgrade, the finishing for perfect/easy keys in D3 is not something you want to copy.

The only issue there is, that its only 1 key and the owner of the key penalized with bailing players. You dont see this in raiding or arena, since you either lose the shared ID for the week or you lose personal MMR and personal rating aswell.

A solution might be, that keys are shared for a run. Your weekly chest will be scaled of YOUR OWN HIGHEST KEY OF THE WEEK.

A) you get +1/-1 for timed/nontimed runs for the whole group, if the own key is same/lower as group key
B) you get +0 for a nontimed run, if your key is higher as the group key, but this resets to A) after each not-finished run. If you want to help and bail, your next dungeon needs to be finished or your own/higher key is punished with -1
C) you get -ALL and lose your key, if you bail and your own key is lower as the group key

=> EVERYONE will look for dungeon runs with keys same/under the own key - basicly a community driven raider.io filter
=> HELPERS will not be punished for helping, but after 1 not finished run they lose the key protection and will get the same treatment as everyone else
=> LEECHERS will be punished for bailing

It would make finishing the dungeon the standard and would punish repeated bailing and even more bailing from leechers.

And yes, this would kill boosting for sure.

[123youshowme]

WoW's M+ key system is the improved Diablo3 Greater Rift system. You are asking for a downgrade, the finishing for perfect/easy keys in D3 is not something you want to copy.

The only issue there is, that its only 1 key and the owner of the key penalized with bailing players. You dont see this in raiding or arena, since you either lose the shared ID for the week or you lose personal MMR and personal rating aswell.

A solution might be, that keys are shared for a run.

A) you get +1/-1 for timed/nontimed runs for the whole group, if the own key is same/lower as group key
B) you get +0 for a nontimed run, if your key is higher as the group key, but this resets to A) after each not-finished run. If you want to help and bail, your next dungeon needs to be finished or your own/higher key is punished with -1
C) you get -ALL and lose your key, if you bail and your own key is lower as the group key

=> EVERYONE will look for dungeon runs with keys same/under the own key - basicly a community driven raider.io filter
=> HELPERS will not be punished for helping, but after 1 not finished run they lose the key protection and will get the same treatment as everyone else
=> LEECHERS will be punished for bailing

It would make finishing the dungeon the standard and would punish repeated bailing and even more bailing from leechers.

horrible idea

[Ange]

horrible idea

You get the same max-key for your weekly as if you play right now the highest key you can do.
You get only +1 to your own key, even if you buy a boost.
You get -1 for repeated bailing and -ALL/weekly reset for repeated bailing without meeting the groups keys level.

What is horrible about that?

[123youshowme]

You get the same max-key for your weekly as if you play right now the highest key you can do.
You get only +1 to your own key, even if you buy a boost.
You get -1 for repeated bailing and -ALL/weekly reset for repeated bailing without meeting the groups keys level.

What is horrible about that?

Being penalized for leaving shitters.

anyway i dunno why i'm arguing on mmo-c cus it's not like any of yalls horrible ideas see the light of day

[kranur]

Nope, because it's not possible to determine if someone left because he's a douche (and there are, was carrying a friend through a +2 or 3, and the tank left because someone pulled an extra pack because he got feared into it ... a pack even cleared easily without him doing anything), had a good reason (can't really expect someone to finish your m+ if there's an earthquake) or forced to leave (imagine joining a group and all others go afk for 30minutes or more or a group where someone wipes you on purpose over and over).

[Soikona]

So im doing +16 runs and i want to time it to increase my score.

My tank always pulls 4 to 5 packs at once because he thinks that this is a good idea.
We keep wiping.
My healer, a disc priest, thinks that shadow mend is his only real heal.
We keep wiping.

That might happen at the first few pulls or at the last.
Maybe you cant stay around for 3 hours to finish that key.

Why should there be a penalty for players who leave in such situations?
How do you want the system to determine wether you are a spoiled brat or if the others really are that bad that the key is undoable for that group composition?

I am not afriad to admit that i am a leaver.
Before the start of every dungeon i clearly ask what the goal of that key is.
If we want to time it and that will obviously not happen, im out.

And i really dont see why i should receive a penalty. In the end you signed up for a game mode where the goal is to clear a dungeon in a given time. If you obviously wont get to that goal what'S the point?

If you want runs to be finished for your weekly search for weekly keys.
IF you want runs for gearing search for that.

If it's a tyrannical week and you wipe to the first boss which takes ages due to high health it'S absolutely ok to leave if you made it clear what the goal is.
If you furthermore see beforehand at the trash and boss dps that you cant make the timer why waste the time?

In the end it'a a group activity. If you demand penalties for players who dont have the same mindset as you then you are probably also a little brat.

You queue up for BGs with the pre determined goal to win but there is a penalty for leaving it.

[scelero]

You queue up for BGs with the pre determined goal to win but there is a penalty for leaving it.

This doesn't make sense. A battleground is a battle. Leaving your squad in that situation is not something you do. The mindset is kill or be killed. You don't leave until it's done. Some places in time actually kill those who flee the battlefield.

M+ is an adventure. You choose to go on that quest. Plenty of examples of people leaving an expedition early for various reasons.

[ID811717]

What is horrible about that?

It only works for people who care about doing safe&easy weekly keys, and want to take no risks.

And god forbid you get a KR+24 early in the week. That key is dead till the last day of the week; no one will help you with weekly +24 while they still have +22s and +23s in their bags. Right now you at least have an option to spend 90 minutes struggling through it and hope that it turns into a good +23 key next.

Does not even have to be a KR key. Any progression is killed. A group that is timing all +17s and depleting all +18s will get 5 times less attempts to time their first +18 key ever.

[Accendor]

The best solution is to not pug anyways.

I understand the idea behind this, but this is also not really a solution, because how else do you find your groups?
Ok, of course the answer is "get a guild", but how do you get a guild? Why would you apply to random guild which you know nothing about with people you do not know? I understand that this is true for very high end mythic raiding guilds, but for the rest of the player base I think the usual way is to join the guild of a person they already know and not the other way around.

[Ange]

It only works for people who care about doing safe&easy weekly keys, and want to take no risks.

And god forbid you get a KR+24 early in the week. That key is dead till the last day of the week; no one will help you with weekly +24 while they still have +22s and +23s in their bags. Right now you at least have an option to spend 90 minutes struggling through it and hope that it turns into a good +23 key next.

Does not even have to be a KR key. Any progression is killed. A group that is timing all +17s and depleting all +18s will get 5 times less attempts to time their first +18 key ever.

I made in my posting pretty clear that I don't like the Diablo3 system of fishing. Doing a high weekly with the goal to get 5-keys next week to fish from is nothing else.

This kind of fishing/difficulty-softening behaviour is hard punished in rated pvp, hard punished in competitive raiding and is only tolerated in M+ because its a new system and it got zero changes from its introduction.

I understand where you come from, just saying that the game this system comes from suffers a lot from this "fishing" culture and in WoW we have much stricter rules for skill based challenges.

I would be not shocked if blizzard crowns M+ to the same tier as raiding and pvp is in the future, with FoS and Mount/Mog benefits, that it will get the same restrictive system with punishments for avoiding the target difficulty.

Fishing is nothing else, but to cheese the intended difficulty. (CHEATING)

M+ right now with a premade group is like a raidgroup hoping for a weekly RNG spawn of 8/8 freehold-bosses to get CE. If you want true ingame R.IO or the benefits of raiding/arena for M+, you might think about this comparison and why the current iteration does not fit inside the rules.

[shyguybman]

If you want runs to be finished for your weekly search for weekly keys.
IF you want runs for gearing search for that.

If you want to increase your io score, search for pushing.

[Soikona]

This doesn't make sense. A battleground is a battle. Leaving your squad in that situation is not something you do. The mindset is kill or be killed. You don't leave until it's done. Some places in time actually kill those who flee the battlefield.

M+ is an adventure. You choose to go on that quest. Plenty of examples of people leaving an expedition early for various reasons.

Just because the enemy changes doesn’t mean shit. What about LFR? LFG HC dungeons? If you leave then you get a penalty. If you want to use your logic that you can quit just because you are not getting what you signed up for, you have to include all situations in that too. It’s their logic, not mine. Moving the goal to suit your agenda doesn’t make your logic any more sound.

[Black Goat]

Yes, it should be. Plain and simple, no need for discussion about nuance about X, Y, or Z scenario.

If you bail on a Mythic+ key, premade or not, you should be penalized. The impatience of one person doesn't trump the importance of wasting 4 other peoples' time.