Iranian General Sulemain and others reported killed in Baghdad airstrike

[Skroe]

Are we still seriously going on about deterrence? Remember when people adamantly said that taking out Soleimani was deterrence enough that nobody would try do anything and that'd be the end of it? Yeah....

Anyone that said that just wants pointing and laughing at for thinking they knew anything. Certain people on this forum should just not be engaged with on certain topics.

My deterrence comments were entirely accurate are are playing out. Iran didn't actually kill any US droops did they? No they fired some missiles outside of a base. And keep in mind, I anticipated a response from Iran. They obviously had to.

The point I had is that the US would need a strategy to capitalize on the potential opening to restore conventional deterrence. I was not convinced Trump had one (I still don't think he does). If he doesn't, a one off on Soleimani accomplishes nothing. If the Pentagon can put one together, as David Petraeus said, it could be very valuable.

So we will see what the US does now. I think it should destroy the launchers that fired the missiles.

By killing Solemani and taking something irreplacable away from Iran, and then seeing a response that did not lead to US fatalities (and in fact was seemingly designed to AVOID US casualties), the US has achieved escalation dominance, which is the first step to restoring deterrence. Now the US should go with that and escalate-to-deescalate further by either attacking the launchers or oil refineries. There is an argument to be made as to if these should be designed to avoid casualties or not. But the US has the escalation initiative and has successfully deterred Iran from taking lives in retaliation.

So what's your point again? Because it just seems like you aren't understanding how this is going.

[Stormspark]

He tweeted out the Iran flag, just like Trump tweeted the US flag after the kill shot.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nat...239060528.html

It's scary, because I am as athiest as it is possible to be. And I have more respect for Iran than I do Trump. That I respect a theocracy more than our own resident (not a typo) should say something.

[Cerilis]

If only you would at least focus your priced deterrence on the adult neighbours moving their fenceposts into your garden, instead of bullying the kid having a fit on the playground...

[Belize]

It's scary, because I am as athiest as it is possible to be. And I have more respect for Iran than I do Trump. That I respect a theocracy more than our own resident (not a typo) should say something.

TBF, the GOP are trying real hard to make the U.S. a theocracy too.

[Skroe]

It's scary, because I am as athiest as it is possible to be. And I have more respect for Iran than I do Trump. That I respect a theocracy more than our own resident (not a typo) should say something.

That's just... wrong.

Trump is a piece of human filth and the worst American alive, but Iran publicly hangs people who commit sodomy and adultery by using a mobile crane. People are stoned to death.

Trump's a monster, but Iran is one of the leading violators of human rights on earth. It's in a class with North Korea, Saudi Arabia and few others. Not even Russia and China are in that realm.

Let's get some perspective here, please. Because that is what "Iran" is. Not the Iranian people. That is what the state of the Iran that is a belligerent in this conflict. And not deserving of any respect whatsoever.

[Stormspark]

That's just... wrong.

Trump is a piece of human filth and the worst American alive, but Iran publicly hangs people who commit sodomy and adultery by using a mobile crane. People are stoned to death.

Trump's a monster, but Iran is one of the leading violators of human rights on earth. It's in a class with North Korea, Saudi Arabia and few others. Not even Russia and China are in that realm.

Let's get some perspective here, please. Because that is what "Iran" is. Not the Iranian people. That is what the state of the Iran that is a belligerent in this conflict. And not deserving of any respect whatsoever.

And Trump would do all of that and worse IF he were given the power to do so. That he doesn't (currently) have the power is kind of irrelevant to how much of a piece of shit he is.

[Belize]

By killing Solemani and taking something irreplacable away from Iran

This is where you're wrong, and stuck in 1917.

When was the last time killing a "leading figure" has ever actually worked in the Middle East? Let's think here.

Saddam? Well, no, things got arguably worse afterwards.
Osama? Maybe a moral victory for the U.S., but it did little to affect the insurgents in the area.
Whatshisface from ISIL? They continued fighting long after, and are still able to regroup and fight back after the loss of the figurehead.


At some point you'll realize that you're not fighting conventional militaries, and haven't done so since prior to Vietnam (which, btw, your ideals of "deterrence" why that was a failure and a shitshow also).

You know what it has done though? Its painted the U.S. as reckless, untrustworthy and petty.

You say that the U.S. needs to be respected because it has the biggest military dick, but once you burn enough international bridges, that big 'ol dick won't help you reach trade agreements unless you decide to make them at gunpoint.

[Skroe]

No, dude, you said Iran would do literally nothing in response to your assassination of their most popular general. You were wrong. You don't need to move the goalposts to now say they had to take a life for this to be considered retaliation. Just own it.

This is as far as I care to reply to you on this subject, honestly. I have no interest discussing this further with someone possessing your mindset.

I did not.

here is the proof:
1-5-2020

Again, was the attack on the embassy and Americans or just the Green zone? Because that distinction Matters. Iran WILL respond but it seems like a few shitty rockets aren’t the response. It will be about the US seizing escalation dominance past this and respond as Iran responds until they can’t anymore, that will fully build deterrence. A good example is the lead up to Operation Praying Mantis in the 1980s that ended Iranian attacks for 15 years.

That’s what the 1000 colonels in the Pentagon building will be charged with coming up yet. We should outright drone every member of this Hezbollah Iraq militant group we can find though.

LITERALLY CALLED IT. Damn I'm good.

You lose.

We are rebuilding deterrence.

- - - Updated - - -

This is where you're wrong, and stuck in 1917.

When was the last time killing a "leading figure" has ever actually worked in the Middle East? Let's think here.

Saddam? Well, no, things got arguably worse afterwards.
Osama? Maybe a moral victory for the U.S., but it did little to affect the insurgents in the area.
Whatshisface from ISIL? They continued fighting long after, and are still able to regroup and fight back after the loss of the figurehead.


At some point you'll realize that you're not fighting conventional militaries, and haven't done so since prior to Vietnam (which, btw, your ideals of "deterrence" why that was a failure and a shitshow also).

You know what it has done though? Its painted the U.S. as reckless, untrustworthy and petty.

You say that the U.S. needs to be respected because it has the biggest military dick, but once you burn enough international bridges, that big 'ol dick won't help you reach trade agreements unless you decide to make them at gunpoint.

Ah yes because things are ALWAYS DIFFERENT in the Middle East, including the value of people. A guy like Solimani could be the virtual mastermind of a regional network that expands Iranian influence and a single point of contact who leads fromt he front lines, but when we kill him... no the big ol' US doesn't get to put a point on the board.

Ridiculous. *spits at the notion*.

There is always some goddamn excuse. If it's not this it's the Megazord of the Iranian People and not alienating them, because they're sure to step up to the plate one fucking day. Always some fucking story with you people.

Holy crap.

No. We took something away from them, and this was an unambiguously good move for the US. The only mistake was not doing it years ago. And more often.

And by the way the whole deterrence thing... like I get why I pisses you folks off... because if it is accurate it normalizes something you find abhorrent. But here's the thing, it's panned out. Iran did not kill US troops, and now the US has to decide whether to escalate further, or if it has achieved deterrence. And we might not find out this week. Or next week. Certifying deterrence will involve tit for tat actions. I said three days ago.

And what have we seen? Iran wanting to save face (it had to) but unwilling to inflict losses on the US. Certainly on the magnitude of the loss we inflicted on them.

No. This is a good thing for the US.

[Combatbutler]

The US is destroying any argument I have about the Western ideals, human rights, law and order, justice and ethics. They trample all of those with their feet. Liberties? Fuck that, liberties only count if you are the right nationality.

Why did you have this view to begin with? The US has never stood for any of these values. They just use them as particularly hollow lip service.

[Skroe]

And Trump would do all of that and worse IF he were given the power to do so. That he doesn't (currently) have the power is kind of irrelevant to how much of a piece of shit he is.

There's a piece of shit and then there are crimes against humanity.

Donald Trump is a piece of shit. Who would do terrible things if given the chance. But because he has not he is objectively not as bad as the people who have objectively done bad things, past tense. Crimes against humanity bad things.

[Stormspark]

Why did you have this view to begin with? The US has never stood for any of these values. They just use them as particularly hollow lip service.

The US has always *claimed* to stand for those values. That said, the US has shown its true colors in the past couple years and EVERYONE can see it.

[Combatbutler]

The US has always *claimed* to stand for those values. That said, the US has shown its true colors in the past couple years and EVERYONE can see it.

Well the US likes to try to claim a nonexistent moral highground, while being just as rotten as their enemies. Waging war on bad publicity just isn't so easy after all.

[Belize]

Ah yes because things are ALWAYS DIFFERENT in the Middle East, including the value of people. A guy like Solimani could be the virtual mastermind of a regional network that expands Iranian influence and a single point of contact who leads fromt he front lines, but when we kill him... no the big ol' US doesn't get to put a point on the board.

Ridiculous. *spits at the notion*.

There is always some goddamn excuse. If it's not this it's the Megazord of the Iranian People and not alienating them, because they're sure to step up to the plate one fucking day. Always some fucking story with you people.

Holy crap.

No. We took something away from them, and this was an unambiguously good move for the US. The only mistake was not doing it years ago. And more often.

And by the way the whole deterrence thing... like I get why I pisses you folks off... because if it is accurate it normalizes something you find abhorrent. But here's the thing, it's panned out. Iran did not kill US troops, and now the US has to decide whether to escalate further, or if it has achieved deterrence. And we might not find out this week. Or next week. Certifying deterrence will involve tit for tat actions. I said three days ago.

And what have we seen? Iran wanting to save face (it had to) but unwilling to inflict losses on the US. Certainly on the magnitude of the loss we inflicted on them.

No. This is a good thing for the US.

Your obstinacy to keep using strategies that have been proven not to work over the past 20 years is duly noted.

You have fun with that military dick waving.

Don't come crying when the groups that Sulemain was directing continues to operate as normal.

[Pannonian]

That's just... wrong.

Trump is a piece of human filth and the worst American alive, but Iran publicly hangs people who commit sodomy and adultery by using a mobile crane. People are stoned to death.

Trump's a monster, but Iran is one of the leading violators of human rights on earth. It's in a class with North Korea, Saudi Arabia and few others. Not even Russia and China are in that realm.

Let's get some perspective here, please. Because that is what "Iran" is. Not the Iranian people. That is what the state of the Iran that is a belligerent in this conflict. And not deserving of any respect whatsoever.

Well, you don't hang people publicy. You just poison/shock them to death in one of the most unjust and racial biased systems in the West. Apart from locking children into camps and letting them die.

And a miltarized police force curfewing their own people.

The US does not have the high moral standard you claim. Maybe apply the perspective you demand from others to your own country.

[Cerilis]

The US has always *claimed* to stand for those values. That said, the US has shown its true colors in the past couple years and EVERYONE can see it.

Ikr? They could at least stop pretending to be the good guys.

[Combatbutler]

Ikr? They could at least stop pretending to be the good guys.

A cheap ideal is easier to sell than the truth and there are still enough fools out there, who believe that nonsense.

[Blade Wolf]

The US has always *claimed* to stand for those values. That said, the US has shown its true colors in the past couple years and EVERYONE can see it.

Not just the past couple of years but the last few decades.

[Skroe]

Your obstinacy to keep using strategies that have been proven not to work over the past 20 years is duly noted.

Deterrence works. The problem of the last 20 years is that we haven't been enforcing deterrence. We've engaged in a perpetual "turn the other cheek and makes exuses" strategy that for the record, got us the 2016 election hack.

Like I'll say again, people here want to hold Russia accountable for 2016, but there is no plan to deter future Russian agression on that, or other front. And when the time came to deter Iran people here recoiled in horror. Trump opponents recoiled in horror. Actual engaging in a punitive action to clap back at an aggression got people uneasy. "The End is Nigh" uneasy.

Not a single anti-Trump person who said a word about deterring Russia were serious when that was uttered. It's a joke to say "we must deter Russia", but also "we can't poke the Iranian hornet's nest". You know what's a far bigger and more dangerous hornet's nest than Iran? Russia!

No. We got Russia in Ukraine and Syria and in our elections, China in the SCS and hacking the US every other month, and North Korea and Iran up to all sorts of mischief because you people make it a career to make excuses as to why decisive action is to be avoid and in turn, let the other side do whatever they want.

No. If we did it the proper way, with my *PROVEN* approach, as during the Cold War, Soleimani would have been killed years ago.

You have fun with that military dick waving.

It's not military dick waving. It's foreign policy.

Don't come crying when the groups that Sulemain was directing continues to operate as normal.

Oh of course this doesn't end Quuds Force. It just removes their best man. Don't put words in my mouth.

Want to know what the solution is then? Do it again to the next guy. And the next. And the next. The Israelis call this "mowing the grasp".

Now do me a favor and take five minutes and come up with some creative fairy tale as to why we can't do this. Because that's the west's mutant power. Excuse making over inaction. On anything. Foreign threats. Climate change. Budgeting. Social justice. You name. It's always "hard" and "costly" and "risky" with "unforseen consequences", even when it's plainly easy and simple and clear cut and people just want to avoid pissing other people off and that's really all it is.

Yes. This is the incident character of some people in the West was quite clear. In the immortal words of Batman, a superstitious, cowardly lot. Because if it's not the Iranian Populace Megazord we must fear, it's the human wave of hundreds of millions of Iranians descending on Europe like the goddamn Halo flood.

And yes I'm writing this in a brusque, sarcastic manner, because honestly, this is ridiculous.

[Breccia]

Whats that stuff about posting the Iranian flag? What did I miss?

Trump ordered the assassination of an Iranian general (after telling random-ass people at Mar-a-Lago by the way) and posted an American flag, with no text or context, while doing so.

Iran fires 15 missiles at/around a US base and tweeted the Iranian flag while doing so.

Basically "up yours, Individual Fatass One" the literal flame war.

[Skroe]

Well, you don't hang people publicy. You just poison/shock them to death in one of the most unjust and racial biased systems in the West. Apart from locking children into camps and letting them die.

And a miltarized police force curfewing their own people.

The US does not have the high moral standard you claim. Maybe apply the perspective you demand from others to your own country.

There is a key difference. One you people always overlook in your rush to take the US down a notch.

Iranian justice is a tool that the ruling group - part junta, part theocratic regime - utilize to control their populace and neutralize internal threats. It's intimidation. That's why it's public. To send a message about what challenging the regime and stepping outside its zone of control leads to.

US justice, even where I profoundly disagree with it, is a product of popular will. If Americans wanted capital punishment to go away, they can elect people to change the law. if they want to change how jails work and the nature of sentences, they can elect different people to change the law. They can elect different prosecutors and in certain places, different judges. They can file legal challenges in the courts to right systemic wrongs. And across America this has and does happen. Capital punishment is gone in all but a handful of states, that carry out almost all executions. And the move to bolster criminal justice equality has been growing for steam for years in the US.

So that is the key difference. We have the right and the ability to change the laws and systems that are unjust to be just. We have to come to a societal consensus, and that can be slow - some Americans still approve of capital punishment. But that is the democratic process at work.

Now can that happen in Iran? Absolutely not. Because their criminal justice system isn't about society deciding the rules of its people and enforcing them fairly. It's about the state abusing the rights of people to protect those in power and intimidate the populace.

So yes, we do have moral authority on the issue. Any democratic country does compared to the likes of Iran.