Why flying being gated behind rep grind makes no sense

[Zorachus]

You never lose flying. You can always fly in areas where you have unlocked it.

You know what he meant. People play in the newest latest expansion zones, not previous old expansions in lower level continents. So right now that's BfA, and before 8.2 you could not fly in BfA zones, a year with a new expansion and no flight available. Same with Legion, before patch 7.2, you couldn't fly in the Broken Isles, so about a year into Legion before you could fly there.

So in a sense you do lose flying sort of. You had flight in Legion for a year or so, then come the new BfA expansion, you move there, level up, and play there most of the time, and you can't fly at all, having to wait a year for patch 8.2 that then allows you to grind away at unlocking flight.

And this Summer Shadowlands will come out, and no flying there for awhile, and you will spend most your characters time in the new Shadowlands zones, but stuck to ground mounts until patch 9.2

[JadedTauren]

Just doing dailies and only dailies it's not that hard to get flying. You have a year left to get it and in an interview they said they're giving flying to everyone anyways so it's not like you -have- to do it this year.

[Softbottom]

You never lose flying. You can always fly in areas where you have unlocked it.

It makes no sense not be able to not fly in BFA zones though as they are on azeroth. gotta get those mau's up doe.

[SirCowdog]

You never lose flying. You can always fly in areas where you have unlocked it.

That's a very disingenuous point to make, since everyone knows at this stage that the discussion is about flying in CURRENT content, and how Blizzard refuses to address that issue with any kind of reasonable or fair approach.

[rrayy]

read my line again. Guessing...as in they are trying out of it works. And then they might replace it so people can stop crying until the next "flying" problem.

They won't replace it. They are quite happy with it and people's whiining about it no longer matters. THey have made that clear as this is the 4th expansion to use it. The whining over it has been irrelevant for some time.

[SirCowdog]

They won't replace it. They are quite happy with it and people's whiining about it no longer matters. THey have made that clear as this is the 4th expansion to use it. The whining over it has been irrelevant for some time.

I love how legitimate criticism and well written solutions get lumped in as "whining".

Pathfinder as a concept is alright. Blizzard's implementation of it, however, is fucking awful. The fact that they're happy with it should count for very little, especially considering all the other blunders they were happy with that had to be changed later.

[kaintk]

blizzard gated the flying heavily because they hate the peoples who forced them to install the flying in draenor expansion, since then, they put the flying behind a time and reput gate just by revenge agaisnst the people who want flying

[Flarelaine]

That's a very disingenuous point to make, since everyone knows at this stage that the discussion is about flying in CURRENT content, and how Blizzard refuses to address that issue with any kind of reasonable or fair approach.

And yet it is important to point out. Complaining about "losing" flying is also disingenious and only serves to make the problem emotionally charged. Having to earn flying repeatedly for each expansion's zones has been the rule since forever, even when "earning" it only meant shelling out some gold.

[SirCowdog]

And yet it is important to point out. Complaining about "losing" flying is also disingenious and only serves to make the problem emotionally charged. Having to earn flying repeatedly for each expansion's zones has been the rule since forever, even when "earning" it only meant shelling out some gold.

Because other people being disingenuous doesn't justify returning the same. Ive been guilty of this in the past, and I try to avoid doing it.

To move the point forward: The reason why people express themselves as feeling like they're "losing" flight is because of the way it's implemented. There's no explanation. No inclusion in the lore such as with artifacts, the HoA, or even corrupted gear or Azerite. It's not like gear or other abilities that keep working but get less effective as you level in a new expansion. It's just turned off arbitrarily, then future content just pretends flight doesn't exist.

Granted, they could probably express themselves better, but throwing the "you can still fly in old zones" line is just as bad as the "use your ground mount if you don't like flying" line.

Neither one is constructive.

[Flarelaine]

Because other people being disingenuous doesn't justify returning the same. Ive been guilty of this in the past, and I try to avoid doing it.

To move the point forward: The reason why people express themselves as feeling like they're "losing" flight is because of the way it's implemented. There's no explanation. No inclusion in the lore such as with artifacts, the HoA, or even corrupted gear or Azerite. It's not like gear or other abilities that keep working but get less effective as you level in a new expansion. It's just turned off arbitrarily, then future content just pretends flight doesn't exist.

Granted, they could probably express themselves better, but throwing the "you can still fly in old zones" line is just as bad as the "use your ground mount if you don't like flying" line.

Neither one is constructive.

You are probably right.

But some people get so carried away by their own rhetoric that I feel compelled to point out basic facts...

Lack of explanation is, in fact, a mistake. The last time there was even an attempt was Cold Weather Flying. But then, there is no-ingame explanation for talent changes or skill pruning, either.

[SirCowdog]

You are probably right.

But some people get so carried away by their own rhetoric that I feel compelled to point out basic facts...

Lack of explanation is, in fact, a mistake. The last time there was even an attempt was Cold Weather Flying. But then, there is no-ingame explanation for talent changes or skill pruning, either.

Context is super important in this discussion. "Basic Facts" can be just as bad as the rhetoric if used wrongly. I just had this same discussion about facts the other day, about how it's technically true that ground mounts can be used if a person doesn't want to fly. That doesn't make it a good choice, but it's still a "Fact".

I think a lot of the trouble surrounding this discussion is that it's too polarizing. That's part of the nature of flying that badly needs to be addressed: It's either on, or it's not. You either have it and it screws with grounded encounter design, or you don't and Blizzard can arbitrarily slow you down(whether you actually care about the scenery or not).

The entire system of the open world design, and the way we move through it, needs to be reconsidered from a fundamental level. Players need to recognize that flying through the air at 300+ speed and ignoring everything isn't conducive to an engaging open world. But Blizzard also needs to recognize that the old formula of two-dimensional encounters and terrain just doesn't hold up any more.

There's some in-between temporary steps that could be taken to make things work in the short-term. Pathfinder is one example(a poor one IMO). And if we're absolutely going to be stuck with it due to Dev bias or mandate from Ion/Alex, then at the very least we should be getting the best god damned version of Pathfinder possible, on par with the level of quality and care Blizzard gives other systems.

Every player cares about something in the game, whether it's PVP, Pet Battles, Crafting, whatever. A best case scenario is where we get all these polarized posters and devs to recognize that just because they don't personally like flying doesn't mean that flying isn't still important to the game.

[baskev]

They won't replace it. They are quite happy with it and people's whiining about it no longer matters. THey have made that clear as this is the 4th expansion to use it. The whining over it has been irrelevant for some time.

That is why they treid flying elites in mechagon and now in the 8.3 content. I think they are looking at replacing it. Why else add flying elites just to force us to the ground?

And yes, the whining is irrelevant ( and annoying ) for some time now. And they will never be happy. If it is not flying , then it is rep grinds etc etc. And then 12 years later they want a classic 2.0 with all the things they cried so hard about. The things they wanted to remove in the first place :P:P

[dewd]

it started not making sense from wotlk onward to 'earn' flying over and over again after already paying for it in bc with what was at that time a fuckton of gold

[baskev]

I love how legitimate criticism and well written solutions get lumped in as "whining".

Pathfinder as a concept is alright. Blizzard's implementation of it, however, is fucking awful. The fact that they're happy with it should count for very little, especially considering all the other blunders they were happy with that had to be changed later.

I agree, patherfinder is good. The timing ( patch 2.0) and some other things are not.

But i agree with rrayy, it is whining. I think he is not talking about you or me. People who use facts. I think he talking about the people who want it. But when you ask why...you can not get a straight answer. And if you point out valid concerns about flying. They brush them off.
And in that case he is right ( if its that case). @rrayy correct me if i wrong with the above.


Personally i think its a cry behavior. We have many ways of teleporting and moving around. Next to all the class spells ( and those lucky horde rodents) we have ( replace sw with ogri if you are horde):

1.) heartstone ( to your inn)
2.) Garrison HS ( take a portal to ashran , and then portal to sw) also fast. and fast cooldown
3.) dalaran HS ( again, portal to sw)
4.) Cloak of Coordination ( to sw) long cd
5.) Shroud of Cooperation ( to sw) long cd
6.) Wrap of Unity ( to sw) mid range cd
7.) The Brassiest Knuckle ( to sw) 1 hr cooldown

Also:
- Jaina's necklace ( to northrend dalaran)
- that whistle if you stand close to a FP

As for moving about. Many MANY flightpoints. Content that flows from flightpoint to flightpoint. WQ that are around FP.
And most classes ( not all) have some form of faster travel or teleports.

[SirCowdog]

I agree, patherfinder is good. The timing ( patch 2.0) and some other things are not.

But i agree with rrayy, it is whining. I think he is not talking about you or me. People who use facts. I think he talking about the people who want it. But when you ask why...you can not get a straight answer. And if you point out valid concerns about flying. They brush them off.
And in that case he is right ( if its that case). @rrayy correct me if i wrong with the above.

I think it's far too easy to stereotype and begin thinking of EVERY criticism of pathfinder, or ground-only design, as "crying". Because even sometimes when a person doesn't articulate themselves well, and is just bemoaning what they view as a loss of part of the game they enjoy, there is something to be understood about it.

Personally i think its a cry behavior. We have many ways of teleporting and moving around. Next to all the class spells ( and those lucky horde rodents) we have ( replace sw with ogri if you are horde):

1.) heartstone ( to your inn)
2.) Garrison HS ( take a portal to ashran , and then portal to sw) also fast. and fast cooldown
3.) dalaran HS ( again, portal to sw)
4.) Cloak of Coordination ( to sw) long cd
5.) Shroud of Cooperation ( to sw) long cd
6.) Wrap of Unity ( to sw) mid range cd
7.) The Brassiest Knuckle ( to sw) 1 hr cooldown

Also:
- Jaina's necklace ( to northrend dalaran)
- that whistle if you stand close to a FP

As for moving about. Many MANY flightpoints. Content that flows from flightpoint to flightpoint. WQ that are around FP.
And most classes ( not all) have some form of faster travel or teleports.

I think you need to try very hard to understand that it's not just about getting from point A to point B, but HOW that movement is done. Flying is a fundamental wonder of the human race. Everything from the Wright Brothers inventing the airplane, to superman. We often have dreams about flying. For many players it is a fantasy that is a VITAL part of what sets the experience of World of Warcraft apart from other MMOs, just as much as the art style or the combat. That essential feeling of what the game IS.

This is something I think that Ion and Alex have forgotten, or never understood in the first place. And it's something I've struggled to explain to pro-ground players since this argument started back during WoD beta. You can't just remove flying from WoW. If you push it to the side, like has been done with Pathfinder, you also hurt the experience almost as much. Maybe YOU don't care about it. But that's like telling a raider that raids should be removed because you don't like it. Or WPVP, or fishing, or grinding mobs.

Are there ways to make flying more balanced, and fit better into the game with all those other ways of moving around that you listed? Absolutely! That is what Blizzard, and all of us, should be focusing on. Not arguing about 'winning" the debate of which kind of mount is best.

[rrayy]

That is why they treid flying elites in mechagon and now in the 8.3 content. I think they are looking at replacing it. Why else add flying elites just to force us to the ground?

And yes, the whining is irrelevant ( and annoying ) for some time now. And they will never be happy. If it is not flying , then it is rep grinds etc etc. And then 12 years later they want a classic 2.0 with all the things they cried so hard about. The things they wanted to remove in the first place :P:P

You have no idea if that is the case. For all you know, they did that to make flying more perilous which has zero to do with pathfinder. And by the way, those mobs in Mechagon hardly kept you on the ground, not to mention you can buy the faction flying mount and be immune form those mobs.

- - - Updated - - -

You know what he meant. People play in the newest latest expansion zones, not previous old expansions in lower level continents. So right now that's BfA, and before 8.2 you could not fly in BfA zones, a year with a new expansion and no flight available. Same with Legion, before patch 7.2, you couldn't fly in the Broken Isles, so about a year into Legion before you could fly there.

So in a sense you do lose flying sort of. You had flight in Legion for a year or so, then come the new BfA expansion, you move there, level up, and play there most of the time, and you can't fly at all, having to wait a year for patch 8.2 that then allows you to grind away at unlocking flight.

And this Summer Shadowlands will come out, and no flying there for awhile, and you will spend most your characters time in the new Shadowlands zones, but stuck to ground mounts until patch 9.2

Then say it correctly and don't be disingenuous. You are in no way losing flight because you cannot lose what you didn't have before. What is actually happening is you are learning the ability to fly in each new land you go to. Once you learn it in each new land, you retain it forever. There is no loss. You aren't re-learning anything. You are always learning something new.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree, patherfinder is good. The timing ( patch 2.0) and some other things are not.

But i agree with rrayy, it is whining. I think he is not talking about you or me. People who use facts. I think he talking about the people who want it. But when you ask why...you can not get a straight answer. And if you point out valid concerns about flying. They brush them off.
And in that case he is right ( if its that case). @rrayy correct me if i wrong with the above.

I am talking about him. Every single post of his is the same thing. Anything other than flying for gold is not acceptable. That is whining. There are no facts. There are no legit complaints. It's the same tired rhetoric over and over again.

- - - Updated - - -

it started not making sense from wotlk onward to 'earn' flying over and over again after already paying for it in bc with what was at that time a fuckton of gold

YOu aren't "earning it over and over again". You are learning a new flying ability for each new continent.

[Softbottom]

YOu aren't "earning it over and over again". You are learning a new flying ability for each new continent.

Why would you need to re-learn to fly on azeroth though? You already know how to fly literally everywhere else on azeroth. It makes no sense not be able to fly in Kul'tiras or Zandalar; The same goes for the Broken Isles.

[schwank05]

Pathfinder 1? nope not enough time. you get that real fast.
Pathfinder 2? yes i agree it takes to long.

And empty chores...you mean leveling? Why not give everyone end game gear? or all titles and mounts? things need to be earned. And all my other reasons i stated before.
But i agree. Pathfinder 2 takes to long. pathfinder 1 is to short. Pathfinder 1 can be complete is the 0.0 version of a expansion. but pathfinder 2 mostly only happens after patch 2.0 or 2.5. And that is to long. I would say after patch 0,5 or 1.0

Except you reach max level and have at least 1 entire zone left worth of shitty quests to do so you have to go back and do quests after being max level... That is the best part about being max level is you no longer have to do quests. Just make it paid once you are max level and be done with it. People get to see the shitty zones that look like all the other zones in other xpacs from before and it lets the devs feel happy like they achieved something meaningful. Then it lets those of us that just want to get from point A to B as fast as possible so we can get our mats/ stuff to raid done then raid and log off. No need to do hours of pointless content outside of endgame just good ol raid logging.

[barrsftw]

And yet it is important to point out. Complaining about "losing" flying is also disingenious and only serves to make the problem emotionally charged. Having to earn flying repeatedly for each expansion's zones has been the rule since forever, even when "earning" it only meant shelling out some gold.

And it wasn't just "some gold". Getting 5k for epic flying was no easy feat. It took time, some more casual players didn't have it for months after reaching max level.

Personally, I'd love a Mage Tower like feature to unlock flying. Where in the initial expansion patch it's INSANELY hard to complete (similar to MT).. but eventually everyone will complete it as iLvl increases. Balance it so that even a bad player will eventually unlock it by around the time 9.2 would come out anyway. They could even just have tiered nerfs to it over time to ensure everyone gets it by 9.2.

[Martymark]

I've been grinding rep with my mount nonstop if you know what I mean.

That should be all the rep grinding I need to flllyyyyyyyy