Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[qwerty123456]

Well I certainly put most of the blame on Rian Johnson, but that is also why Kathleen deserves some of the blame for letting him do what he did. They were either on the same page with the stupid decisions or she completely failed at doing her job. As for JJ Again the rumors going around is that the released version of the TROS is not his cut of the film or the one he thought was going to be released. We will probably never know the truth.
I suspect that is because most of the producers of those films kept a lower profile than Kathleen who made herself a bit a of a target(The bolded for additional emphasis on my point). Plus Bay also helps produce a lot of his movies so he is always going to get blame given his involvement from top to bottom.

JJ was the one who chose to make the heroes the underdogs again and then wipe out the entirety of the Galactic Government and the majority of the resistance at the end of his first film. JJ was the one who chose to have Luke disappear for decades and hang out on a planet. JJ was the one who chose to have Luke think about killing Ben.

The only things Rian did was kill off 3 main characters (Luke, Snoke, and Ackbar) and create the Holdo maneuver. Hell he even has Luke realize he fucked up staying hidden and then sacrifices himself to help the resistance. Rian wasn't the one who had Luke go into hiding and letting the First Order wipe everything out that was JJ. Rian just followed the most logical path as to why. What reason would JJ had that could have been any better? That he was Force cloaking something so Kylo and Snoke could get it? Why would it even matter when they got a super death star that can eat suns and shoot magical homing lasers that can split?

Yeah the text of the film is that he conjured the fleet with Sith magic. But they're all Imperial I class Star Destroyers. It made no sense. Apparently they're all crewed by "Sith loyalists" - how the fuck many of them were there? Since when are there Sith loyalists in the Empire?

It's all a massive ass pull, let's be real. But you know, if you enjoyed a film it doesn't really matter. This kind of thing annoys me because I'm a huge nerd but ultimately it's not a factor in an audience's enjoyment of something.

I think the film is designed to entertain but once you stop watching it everything falls apart. As for the ships I saw a video from someone watching the trailer before the film came out said they counted 250 ships so there is probably more but even if it was only 250 and the ships have 50k people aboard like the originals ( JJ's First order ones have over 82k people aboard with around 8k being troopers) Thats well over 12 million people just on those 250 star destroyers alone and lets face it with JJ's love of "improving" shit it likely has 82k or more people aboard each one. Plus you would think you would need more people just to deal with the mini deathstar tech.




God the more I think about it the more I hate JJ and the Force Awakens I gotta stop thinking about these films cause I'm beginning to think that Rian Johnson was shown the Force Awakens, thought it was a mockbuster film only to be told this was going to be the new Star Wars, and then tried to warn people and save the series from Nostalgia Abrams.

[Sanguinerd]

Force-users figuring something out by instinct is well-established in canon. As for Ben; are we forgetting their psychic bond again for some reason?

Not forgetting it, I just refuse to use it as evidence for things that can't be explained otherwise. It's a lazy way of trying to justify bullshit. Also figuring it out by instinct worked in the baby Yoda setting - it didn't work for Rey. Not to mention the entire reason they were even in that specific cave by total coincidence was because of non-lethal quicksand they didn't even bother trying to escape from because they needed to find that hilarious dagger that happened to just be there

Her learning how to do it from the sacred texts is one explanation I'm willing to accept. But the cave scene is still total bollocks.

Rey was dead. The snake-thing wasn't. They portray the healing as an exchange of life Force. If the person is dead, it's gonna take everything you have to bring them back, and that means you die.

So you assume.

The body disappearing thing isn't what happens to Jedi when they die. It's a specific Jedi ritual, done by conscious choice. I'm not even sure we see anyone properly die before using it. Yoda drifts off and then fades away. Luke and Obi-wan both pick their moment, without any injury that would cause death. And Ben's just lying down after spending himself to save Rey.

I know that isn't what happens to all Jedi, Qui-Gons body didn't dissapear either, yet he is force ghost as well. But sure let's accept it's another thing Ben just knew how to do thanks to his magic bond with Rey.

With Rey and Ben, Rey was focused on taking down Sheev. She didn't have time to set herself up for that shift, if she even knew how. Ben did.

Yeah the few seconds it took for him to run over there he was setting himself up to do it!! That must be it.

[Elim Garak]

You just saying that it's plausible doesn't make it so, either. So hey.

I don't really know what's so hard about just saying that the writers wanted to introduce something new and shiny so they picked this, and that there's no other big explanation or tie-in to existing story. It's perfectly common in all forms of media.

I don't really know what's so hard about just to stop assuming that you are smarter than the writers and just accept that they most certainly had to write things consistently with an in-universe explanation for them. That they didn't need to spell the explanation in plain dialogue lines to those less unfortunate to not know the lore, and when people who picked up on it explain it to you - it's not just them defending the movie.

Oh wait, I know what's so hard about it... it's Ego, the Starlord's dad.

[Endus]

Not forgetting it, I just refuse to use it as evidence for things that can't be explained otherwise. It's a lazy way of trying to justify bullshit. Also figuring it out by instinct worked in the baby Yoda setting - it didn't work for Rey. Not to mention the entire reason they were even in that specific cave by total coincidence was because of non-lethal quicksand they didn't even bother trying to escape from because they needed to find that hilarious dagger that happened to just be there

Her learning how to do it from the sacred texts is one explanation I'm willing to accept. But the cave scene is still total bollocks.

Everything about the Force is "lazy". It exists to solve problems for the protagonists, not create problems.

The caves were RIGHT next to the guy's ship, and they were searching for the guy, because they knew he had intel. The dagger was what they were looking for. They had every reason to be there. The quicksand just cut short the time they'd need to spend searching. The dagger didn't "just happen" to be there; it was literally what they were in that location to search for.

So you assume.

Not particularly. The film explicitly shows this.

I know that isn't what happens to all Jedi, Qui-Gons body didn't dissapear either, yet he is force ghost as well. But sure let's accept it's another thing Ben just knew how to do thanks to his magic bond with Rey.

Or that he was taught, by Luke, who he trained with for literally years.

You're ignoring basic plot elements the films explicitly showed, and pretending that you ignoring those plot points creates a plot hole.

It doesn't.

You're just ignoring the explanation.

Yeah the few seconds it took for him to run over there he was setting himself up to do it!! That must be it.

Like the few seconds it took Obi-Wan, while dueling Vader. Literally the first time we see it happen on-screen.

It's tiring having you question stuff that has clear precedent or explanation in the films.

[Sanguinerd]

It's tiring having you question stuff that has clear precedent or explanation in the films.

What's tiring is people like you who think they're "explaining" things but actually are just making excuses and assumptions.

But you do you man.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, if you like...dislike...love...hate...the movie, no amount of 'splaining in either way is going to convince the other side to join the team.

[Darththeo]

The thing is, she didn't know anything about the force at this point. To know that the Mind Trick is possible is the first problem, to be able to use it against a well trained force user is the second problem.

And imo, force healing can F right off. I hate that it has been introduced.

Ignoring of course that Kylo just spent time using the more advanced version on her. You know what can she know of the Force when someone is using the Force on her. "Hey that guy tried this one me, maybe I'll try something like that one the guard."

- - - Updated - - -

To all the people bringing up "FORCE HEAL RUINS ANAKINS FALL!" no it doesn't.

First, prove that Anakin knew the Jedi could do it. If this is the case, you may have an argument ... key word is may.

Secondly, prove Anakin also knew that he could save someone from death ... hint, the way it is shown one must die regardless.

Thirdly, prove Anakin was willing to sacrifice himself to save Padme at that time. We know he sacrificed himself to save Luke, but that was much later in his life.

Forthly, prove that Force healing is something everyone is capable of who can use the Force.

Plageuis was described as someone who was stated as "Preventing someone from death" ... not "only person who can heal." Your head canon is not actual head canon. Also, Force healing was a thing in the expanded universe, I don't know why this is suddenly a problem for "Star Wars Fans."

[Logwyn]

Ignoring of course that Kylo just spent time using the more advanced version on her. You know what can she know of the Force when someone is using the Force on her. "Hey that guy tried this one me, maybe I'll try something like that one the guard."

- - - Updated - - -

To all the people bringing up "FORCE HEAL RUINS ANAKINS FALL!" no it doesn't.

First, prove that Anakin knew the Jedi could do it. If this is the case, you may have an argument ... key word is may.

Secondly, prove Anakin also knew that he could save someone from death ... hint, the way it is shown one must die regardless.

Thirdly, prove Anakin was willing to sacrifice himself to save Padme at that time. We know he sacrificed himself to save Luke, but that was much later in his life.

Forthly, prove that Force healing is something everyone is capable of who can use the Force.

Plageuis was described as someone who was stated as "Preventing someone from death" ... not "only person who can heal." Your head canon is not actual head canon. Also, Force healing was a thing in the expanded universe, I don't know why this is suddenly a problem for "Star Wars Fans."

Not sure what this is all about....But after Anakin force chokes Padme Obi-Wan reaches down and touches her forehead. Healing her? Not sure. The other thing I'll add about force healing doesn't the person have to want to be healed or to live? Padme WANTED to die as her heart was so broken by Anakin she did not want to go on living. Her lack of will to will would have made force healing moot. No?

[Darththeo]

Not sure what this is all about....But after Anakin force chokes Padme Obi-Wan reaches down and touches her forehead. Healing her? Not sure. The other thing I'll add about force healing doesn't the person have to want to be healed or to live? Padme WANTED to die as her heart was so broken by Anakin she did not want to go on living. Her lack of will to will would have made force healing moot. No?

It is more about me getting tired of hearing that Force Healing makes Anakin's fall pointless, ruined, etc ... we had Force Healing in C-Canon before Disney bought it. Disney then threw out the Expanded Universe and brings back pieces it likes. There were Clone Wars novels that came out where Jedi were healing with the Force so it was something that existed in the old EU.

I don't get how it ruins his fall now that Disney has reintroduced Force Healing to the canon.

[Polyxo]

I think the force healing stuff isn't a big deal, because this is Star Wars, and its not serious scifi meant to hold up to severe scrutiny by obsessed nerds.

[PACOX]

I think the force healing stuff isn't a big deal, because this is Star Wars, and its not serious scifi meant to hold up to severe scrutiny by obsessed nerds.

Exactly. At the end of the day it's Star Wars, where the 'cool' factor is traded for logic.

[Elim Garak]

So it's "ego" to say that Force Healing just came out of nowhere for the sake of giving their protagonist something new?

Sure. It's not a totally common and regular plot contrivance or anything, it must be my totally out of control ego talking, daring to question the almighty writers as if they're not just writing fiction but recounting true and real events from a set of historical documents or something.

If you assume to be smarter than people you criticize - whom you have never met in person - it's always about your ego. Check your narcissism.

[Endus]

So it's "ego" to say that Force Healing just came out of nowhere for the sake of giving their protagonist something new?

To take issue or criticize the emergence of some new idea like that, yes. That's exactly what it is.

There is nothing in the canon that stated that the Force could not be used to heal. It's only breaking canon if you take a pre-existing rule established in a prior entry, and break that specific rule (with a caveat for "rules" that were red herrings, and those stating it were mistaken and should not have been considered reliable testimony in the first place). Without such an establishment in canon, the gloves are off. Writers can insert whatever new idea they wish, as long as it does not violate those established rules.

New elements do not do so simply by virtue of being new. That Force healing was not discussed in the canon does not mean it cannot be introduced later. Why wasn't it used earlier? That's a question for other writers. Because there are so many possible reasons that it's impossible to canonically say. Maybe the Jedi didn't use it, because it carries tones of the Dark, requiring too much investment of emotion/passion/empathy. Maybe it was a lost technique. Maybe it was a blind spot in their teachings for no good reason; a failing of the Jedi system.

It "came out of nowhere" in the sense that this specific form had not been seen before. That, however, is what writing is; creating something new. It's true of literally every single concept and character and plot point, at some point in the narrative.

It did not "come out of nowhere" in the sense that there's no precedent. The existence of the Force and those who can manipulate it is that precedent. The canon never stated that the named Jedi powers is all that was possible. That's something you, and others, are making up. And really, it's a silly idea that the canon violates, demonstrating that it's fundamentally wrong.

Recall that, canonically, the Force can create undead zombies and teleport the user. Those are Force abilities used by the Nightsisters, in the Fallen Order game. Different paths, different expressions and uses of the same Force. Canonically.

Sure. It's not a totally common and regular plot contrivance or anything, it must be my totally out of control ego talking, daring to question the almighty writers as if they're not just writing fiction but recounting true and real events from a set of historical documents or something.

That's the point. They are the writers. Unless you can point to some specific element of prior canon saying "the Force cannot be used to heal", then the writers had no reason to not include that, if they wanted to. They get to make stuff up, and then that stuff is canon moving forward. That's how we got every single element of canon. A writer made it up, because it was convenient for the plot they were writing at the time, or they thought it was cool. That's it.

There's nothing to "question". They're writers, and they're writing. What they wrote does not violate canon. And is now canon. If you don't like it, well, that's nice. Doesn't change anything. Just means you don't like some stuff in Star Wars. That's it. That's not a criticism, that's just what you like or don't like.

[CreamySheev]

I'm confused.. Since Palpatine didn't die at the end of Jedi, why does he allow for The Empire, HIS Empire, to disband? Why does he go into hiding only to create The First Order(which is really just Empire JR) create yet another even more vulnerable Death Star(because yes that is what it is despite apperantly having hundreds of Death Star Destroyers) and some weird clone and call it Snoke to lead the damn thing.

The Imperial fleet still dominated the Galaxy, just because the 2nd Death Star was blown up didn't mean The Empire was defeated. He was still Emperor, there was no need for any of this.

And this is just one of the gaping plotholes left behind by the incompetence of JJ and the Disney kids.

Yet here I browse and see people actually defending this shit movie LOOOOL

[sarahtasher]

I'm confused.. Since Palpatine didn't die at the end of Jedi, why does he allow for The Empire, HIS Empire, to disband? Why does he go into hiding only to create The First Order(which is really just Empire JR) create yet another even more vulnerable Death Star(because yes that is what it is despite apperantly having hundreds of Death Star Destroyers) and some weird clone and call it Snoke to lead the damn thing.

The Imperial fleet still dominated the Galaxy, just because the 2nd Death Star was blown up didn't mean The Empire was defeated. He was still Emperor, there was no need for any of this.

And this is just one of the gaping plotholes left behind by the incompetence of JJ and the Disney kids.

Yet here I browse and see people actually defending this shit movie LOOOOL

Hinted in the old EU, flat out said in the new lore

The Imperials are space Fascists who cares about military power. Palpatine is not. Palpatine cares about UNLIMITED POWER ! (the Force). In the closest equivalent of RISE, Dark Empire (subtle…) Palpatine let Luke betray him several times and trash entire fleets : who cares about some millions of replacable minions butchered if he get a new apprentice and his vengeance on Anakin Skywalker...

[Mormolyce]

Well I certainly put most of the blame on Rian Johnson, but that is also why Kathleen deserves some of the blame for letting him do what he did. They were either on the same page with the stupid decisions or she completely failed at doing her job. As for JJ Again the rumors going around is that the released version of the TROS is not his cut of the film or the one he thought was going to be released. We will probably never know the truth.
I suspect that is because most of the producers of those films kept a lower profile than Kathleen who made herself a bit a of a target(The bolded for additional emphasis on my point). Plus Bay also helps produce a lot of his movies so he is always going to get blame given his involvement from top to bottom.

I don't think producers keep a low profile, kind of the opposite of their job, it's just that usually nobody outside the industry cares about them unless they're famous in their own right. Why so many people are fixated on Kathleen Kennedy is beyond me.

Kennedy is a producer for Mandalorian, Rogue One etc as well. I mean it's almost like the quality of the films varies with the creative teams that actually make them or something.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm confused.. Since Palpatine didn't die at the end of Jedi, why does he allow for The Empire, HIS Empire, to disband? Why does he go into hiding only to create The First Order(which is really just Empire JR) create yet another even more vulnerable Death Star(because yes that is what it is despite apperantly having hundreds of Death Star Destroyers) and some weird clone and call it Snoke to lead the damn thing.

I think he was busy being dead at the time, apparently death isn't something you instantly bounce back from.

But of course the real answer is "last minute ass pull writing because JJ Abrams had no idea where he was going when he started".

This is the guy who made Lost - we really only have ourselves to blame.

[Askyl]

You do know everyone stops reading anything with the word "Mary Sue" in it on the grounds that any one who uses that term is an alt-right fucktard with a shaky grasp on reality?

No? People who stops reading doens't just understand the point of it. It's a very well known character concept. Like.. God mode in a game.

[turboether]

TFW you have a millennia-long 12-step 4D-chess plan to conquer the galaxy and forget to install nav computers on all the star destroyers.

[Darththeo]

TFW you have a millennia-long 12-step 4D-chess plan to conquer the galaxy and forget to install nav computers on all the star destroyers.

They have nav computers, the issue is that planet screws with ships ... which then makes me wonder "How does the Resistance get off planet?"

- - - Updated - - -

I'm confused.. Since Palpatine didn't die at the end of Jedi, why does he allow for The Empire, HIS Empire, to disband? Why does he go into hiding only to create The First Order(which is really just Empire JR) create yet another even more vulnerable Death Star(because yes that is what it is despite apperantly having hundreds of Death Star Destroyers) and some weird clone and call it Snoke to lead the damn thing.

The Imperial fleet still dominated the Galaxy, just because the 2nd Death Star was blown up didn't mean The Empire was defeated. He was still Emperor, there was no need for any of this.

And this is just one of the gaping plotholes left behind by the incompetence of JJ and the Disney kids.

Yet here I browse and see people actually defending this shit movie LOOOOL

Palpatine did die, if you look at him in RoS, he is essentially in his corpse he is forcing to keep alive.
When Palpatine was defeated, his plan was the wipe the board clean and only have the most loyal to him people left alive. The empire failed him, therefor needs to die.

[Aurrora]

I think he was busy being dead at the time, apparently death isn't something you instantly bounce back from.

But of course the real answer is "last minute ass pull writing because JJ Abrams had no idea where he was going when he started".

This is the guy who made Lost - we really only have ourselves to blame.

Well, by all accounts Abrams had some idea where he was going when he started. Rian unfortunately grabbed the wheel and swerved the trilogy off the road and by the time JJ got control again all he could manage was saving it by getting stuck in a ditch instead of wrapped around a tree.