Do you want to kill Sylvanas this expansion?

[Yarathir]

Do you know what Lich King also did? He won many battles.

Yes and if the Lich King fought for the Alliance or Horde, I'm sure you would've also considered him a great asset to either faction.

[Powerogue]

But imagine the shock! What a twist! Sylvanas is actually a good girlie despite being responsible for a genocide, and apparently also Wrath Gate in hindsight. Oh, and reducing several towns with civilians to goo, and Lich King-ing her own soldiers, and trying to enslave a Titan Watcher Val'kyr for her own purposes.. and the list goes on.

You think she is, but she isn't.

I would genuinely sooner believe that we'll redeem Sargeras.

[matrix123mko]

Yes and if the Lich King fought for the Alliance or Horde, I'm sure you would've also considered him a great asset to either faction.

Of course yes. I guess you would have prefered to make army out of orc peons.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I love Bwonsamdi. Such a smarmy asshole.

It's a shame they gave him a 'master'. His behavior is a little less charming when he's just another pet on a leash.

It felt really out of character for him to be having anxiety over Vol'jin's soul being gone. He did saysomething like "Ol' Bwonsamdi not be missin' a spirit since..." meaning it's happened before. His 'boss' could also be the being that made him ascend into Loahood, assuming he was originally a mortal troll.

(However it could be that the last him he lost a spirit, is when Sylvanas 'died' after she jumped off Icecrown. We know that she might've met the Jailer around that time too, so it could be that he wasn't able to 'find' her spirit since the Jailer probably found her. Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I'm sick today and my head feels weird)

[Yarathir]

I would genuinely sooner believe that we'll redeem Sargeras.

It's Blizzard, though.

Tyrande will be the real evil and Sylvanas will be the 4D chess playing hero.

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Of course yes. I guess you would have prefered to make army out of orc peons.

I think that I best refrain from extrapolating this to real life views.

[Powerogue]

Sylvanas as a leader barely did anything except accept the role before various parties were biased to work against her....

Oh my god where could that bias have possibly come from?

* sniff * Someone smell something burning?

[mickybrighteyes]

Oh my god where could that bias have possibly come from?

* sniff * Someone smell something burning?

well... actually it's weird cause some of that hard core biased existed prior to any large trees lighting up. you can see it at a lovely celebratory feast where two major figures of the horde are bickering and gossiping like schoolgirls.

edit:

Sure, post Teldrassil we got some real reasons to be angry at Sylvanas... and people forget we got that point along multiple other actions taken by others. And then we have a lot of never shown actions we then attribute to Sylvanas for not very well explained reasons because they couldn't be arsed to give Sylvanas any screen time showing anything.


She was disliked and hated when she was appointed warchief and this was the norm. Teldrassil didn't change much except actually piss anduin off in regards to her general reputation.

[Jastall]

well... actually it's weird cause some of that hard core biased existed prior to any large trees lighting up. you can see it at a lovely celebratory feast where two major figures of the horde are bickering and gossiping like schoolgirls.

Given that subsequent events have proven them 100% right and then some, I find it hard to fault them being suspicious. Plus, it's still better than an Alliance where everyone licks Anduin's ass.

[mickybrighteyes]

Given that subsequent events have proven them 100% right and then some, I find it hard to fault them being suspicious. Plus, it's still better than an Alliance where everyone licks Anduin's ass.

Except much of the precipitating events that prove Saurfang and Baine right are almost directly a result of them not doing what they said they'd do.

The entire war bullshit altered because Saurfang choosing to let Malfurion go (fucking retarded no matter how you slice it... this is like Goku giving some enemy a Sensu bean to fight them at full power... but swap out Goku for Yamcha) Tyrande was going to be pissed regardless either way cause Saurfang's war was wildly successful in clearing to the coast.

Baine's imprisonment is another point that is entirely justified. He attacked and killed horde military personnel in their secured location. Stole their equipment and forced additional wasting of time with the farce of pirates. This is to say nothing of leaking information to another nation the Horde was actively at war with. All of this was something he admitted to doing as well...

This is like some assholes trying to prove a pitbull is a hostile breed that shouldn't be kept as pets cause they might bite/maul people... by wrapping themselves in raw meat and trying to shove themselves into the dog's jaws. Yeah they're getting bit when they throw themselves into the jaws, the methods of establishing their correctness is still fucking retarded.

[Verdugo]

Given that subsequent events have proven them 100% right and then some, I find it hard to fault them being suspicious. Plus, it's still better than an Alliance where everyone licks Anduin's ass.

Well now we have entire horde leadership licking Anduins ass. Not much of an improvement.

[Valysar]

No, but I want to see her less in CGI.

[Jastall]

Except much of the precipitating events that prove Saurfang and Baine right are almost directly a result of them not doing what they said they'd do.

The entire war bullshit altered because Saurfang choosing to let Malfurion go (fucking retarded no matter how you slice it... this is like Goku giving some enemy a Sensu bean to fight them at full power... but swap out Goku for Yamcha) Tyrande was going to be pissed regardless either way cause Saurfang's war was wildly successful in clearing to the coast.

Baine's imprisonment is another point that is entirely justified. He attacked and killed horde military personnel in their secured location. Stole their equipment and forced additional wasting of time with the farce of pirates. This is to say nothing of leaking information to another nation the Horde was actively at war with. All of this was something he admitted to doing as well...

This is like some assholes trying to prove a pitbull is a hostile breed that shouldn't be kept as pets cause they might bite/maul people... by wrapping themselves in raw meat and trying to shove themselves into the dog's jaws. Yeah they're getting bit when they throw themselves into the jaws, the methods of establishing their correctness is still fucking retarded.

The post wasn't about that and more about the fact that Sylvanas was utterly uninterested in the Horde's benefit from the onset and only wanted to pile body upon body to feed her Jailer friend. Also the fact that Azerite was a sign that the world was literally dying, rather than just being the wondrous power source for the faction's latest armaments.

Hence, them being suspicious of her and of Gallywix is justified in hindsight, is all I'm saying.

[Nero Duskwind]

She deserves to be killed by the Forsaken PC or Tyrande. It’s time for Sylvanas’ story to end. Let her have one of the most emotional deaths in WoW history and have a reprise where she dances with her deceased brother and reprises her most famous phrase: “In the end death claims us all.”.

She won't be killed. She'll be forced to fill the Jailer's role and languish in eternity for her crimes. It'll be a dark mirror in contrast to how Bolvar chose to damn himself by donning the Crown of Domination.

[mickybrighteyes]

The post wasn't about that and more about the fact that Sylvanas was utterly uninterested in the Horde's benefit from the onset and only wanted to pile body upon body to feed her Jailer friend.

Yeah but that wasn't part of the original story being told when she became the warchief. But fuck it, retcon 2019

Not like all those inner monologues talking about how she hated leadership and knew most people didn't like her or how she'd rather be off running the Undercity with her forsaken instead were anything.

This Jailor business is almost as bad as the Draenei aren't from Draenor business

Also the fact that Azerite was a sign that the world was literally dying,

I feel this is more railroaded than actually proven. Azeroth's world soul matters... how exactly? Magni says it's very important, but I'm more of the opinion that simply being imbued with magical power and hearing voices isn't much reason to be taken seriously.

rather than just being the wondrous power source for the faction's latest armaments.

I actually liked some of Azerite's side story elements. Making it key to a number of crazy powerful effects that could turn the tide of battle or fundamentally alter civilization as we know it? But downplaying at as a minor component of every fucking quest item and turning it into a largely forgettable time gate grind element or whatever was a damn shame.

Hence, them being suspicious of her and of Gallywix is justified in hindsight, is all I'm saying.

I still have issue with the Hindsight justification argument in general when the parties involved were still largely responsible for much of the negative outcomes.

Baine being used as the main catalyst for the main rebellion because he was guilty as sin... sort of like this. Link is nsfw cause of language "Free my n****" Turned the horde rebellion into a real farce. Sure there was a plan all along to turn the war into a pointless source of kills for this Jailor, but the way we get to that point it beyond silly.

[Jastall]

Yeah but that wasn't part of the original story being told when she became the warchief. But fuck it, retcon 2019

Not like all those inner monologues talking about how she hated leadership and knew most people didn't like her or how she'd rather be off running the Undercity with her forsaken instead were anything.

This Jailor business is almost as bad as the Draenei aren't from Draenor business



I feel this is more railroaded than actually proven. Azeroth's world soul matters... how exactly? Magni says it's very important, but I'm more of the opinion that simply being imbued with magical power and hearing voices isn't much reason to be taken seriously.

I actually liked some of Azerite's side story elements. Making it key to a number of crazy powerful effects that could turn the tide of battle or fundamentally alter civilization as we know it? But downplaying at as a minor component of every fucking quest item and turning it into a largely forgettable time gate grind element or whatever was a damn shame.


I still have issue with the Hindsight justification argument in general when the parties involved were still largely responsible for much of the negative outcomes.

Baine being used as the main catalyst for the main rebellion because he was guilty as sin... sort of like this. Link is nsfw cause of language "Free my n****" Turned the horde rebellion into a real farce. Sure there was a plan all along to turn the war into a pointless source of kills for this Jailor, but the way we get to that point it beyond silly.

I don't remember saying the writing was good at any point. Yeah, the Jailer's a bad retcon. Yeah, Baine and Saurfang acted like idiots. Yeah, Azerite was a bad plot device that fizzled out in the end. But they were still 100% in the right to doubt Sylvanas's motives regardless.

As for Azeroth's world soul mattering, if you want a World Soul Scientist proving it beyond doubts then we don't have that sure, but all things considered Magni's a pretty credible source on these matters, we've adventured alongside him long enough to know he doesn't spout bullshit or panics for nothing, and the simple fact that both the Legion and the Void want the World Soul is reason enough to want to preserve it/deny it to them even if one is skeptical of the planet being unable to exist without it.

[Yarathir]

Sylvanas had long earned suspicion and scorn before she even became Warchief.

Why do you think Vol'jin commented on never seeing himself giving her that role if not for the "Loa" instructing him to.

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Oh my god where could that bias have possibly come from?

* sniff * Someone smell something burning?

No, but I do see a scowling Titan Watcher in the background muttering about enslavement. Wonder what that's about..

[Biske]

From a horde persepctive, the Alliance has done a terrible job fostering peace.

No, I get that. I'm not here to claim that the Alliance is the king of peace or anything, or that the way to peace is only through the Alliance or some such bullshit. I'm ok with there being resentments and tension between all the factions. I'm just not super drawn in by specifically Alliance vs Horde because at this point it feels really forced, since a lot of Alliance and Horde factions have reasons to dislike each other (within their own faction) or love each other (cross-faction), which is what I was trying to highlight. I wasn't looking to get into the super specifics. Like, yeah, I'm aware the Amani aren't currently part of the Horde, but they were during Warcraft 2, and Zul'jin and pals killed a fair amount of High Elves, who are long-lived enough for them to now be active Blood Elf Horde soldiers and remember that, and while the Amani may no longer be part of the Horde, a lot of the orcs that helped them (and also killed some High Elves) still are. Now, one may say "yeah, but demonic taint" but if BEs can do that and put aside their differences, it stands to reason that humans should also be able to. I was focusing more on the "well, this race could potentially hate this other one" but it goes both ways, in that they could also, well, not.

It would also be weirdly convenient if every single Zandalari that fought the Horde just also happened to be a Zul loyalist. I'm sure some of the lower ranking dudes were involved, in the sense that they were just drafted or however it is Zandalar handles its military. But I only bring that up because it's like, I'd have no reason to hate them when I got back home. They sure aren't supporting Zul anymore (if ever). The Horde overall seems to be way more forgiving about past mistakes and stuff (and for good reason, considering the past of most of the races), sometimes to our advantage, and sometimes to our detriment. The only Alliance group I can think of right now where I'm like "yep, that's the case here too" is with the Dark Irons, and only because Moira got involved.

I hope that all made sense, since I kind of rambled.

[Biske]

Look at it this way, if we haven't stopped Sargeras, Void would have been stopped. Usually there is no difference which side do you choose as every single is morally debatable. You can only choose which one will kill you: Alliance, Scourge, Legion, Light, Horde, Sylvanas or Void.

Kind of random question, but would you like for the Burning Legion to return and become a playable third faction, and include things like Eredar, evil undead, maybe fel orcs or some other stuff?

[mickybrighteyes]

No, I get that. I'm not here to claim that the Alliance is the king of peace or anything, or that the way to peace is only through the Alliance or some such bullshit. I'm ok with there being resentments and tension between all the factions. I'm just not super drawn in by specifically Alliance vs Horde because at this point it feels really forced, since a lot of Alliance and Horde factions have reasons to dislike each other (within their own faction) or love each other (cross-faction), which is what I was trying to highlight. I wasn't looking to get into the super specifics. Like, yeah, I'm aware the Amani aren't currently part of the Horde, but they were during Warcraft 2, and Zul'jin and pals killed a fair amount of High Elves, who are long-lived enough for them to now be active Blood Elf Horde soldiers and remember that, and while the Amani may no longer be part of the Horde, a lot of the orcs that helped them (and also killed some High Elves) still are. Now, one may say "yeah, but demonic taint" but if BEs can do that and put aside their differences, it stands to reason that humans should also be able to. I was focusing more on the "well, this race could potentially hate this other one" but it goes both ways, in that they could also, well, not.

Thing about trolls though is that none of the trolls that wound up in the horde post Thrall were party to any major elf killing until post vanilla storylines. Yeah amani were in on Orgrim's Horde but they have about as much affiliation to the Jungle Trolls as High Elves do with Nightelves. Another thing about blood elf relations was that they were forced into a very bad situation with no allies and the closest geographic neighbor was looking to either pull them into an alliance or gut them anyways. IT wasn't about politics with the old war nemesis so much as They were hung out to dry by the humans more recently and not looking strong enough to really deal with an angry undead army again

It would also be weirdly convenient if every single Zandalari that fought the Horde just also happened to be a Zul loyalist. I'm sure some of the lower ranking dudes were involved, in the sense that they were just drafted or however it is Zandalar handles its military. But I only bring that up because it's like, I'd have no reason to hate them when I got back home. They sure aren't supporting Zul anymore (if ever). The Horde overall seems to be way more forgiving about past mistakes and stuff (and for good reason, considering the past of most of the races), sometimes to our advantage, and sometimes to our detriment. The only Alliance group I can think of right now where I'm like "yep, that's the case here too" is with the Dark Irons, and only because Moira got involved.

The Zul vs Zandalari take is very similar to the 7th Legion/SI:7 vs Alliance issue. Expeditionary force with their set mission, now lets go ahead and use that expeditionary force as the ONLY POINT OF REFERENCE to decide political relations going forward.

Or for a real world example... lets look at the USMC and use ONLY united states marines to decide our opinion of the US



IMO horde seem more "forgiving" on certain issues is due to them being forced into a corner where they are entirely incapable of standing on their own. No group making up the horde could afford to hold millenia long grudges to the death cause they were all within one or two bad choices of getting their nations wiped out

- - - Updated - - -

As for Azeroth's world soul mattering, if you want a World Soul Scientist proving it beyond doubts then we don't have that sure, but all things considered Magni's a pretty credible source on these matters, we've adventured alongside him long enough to know he doesn't spout bullshit or panics for nothing, and the simple fact that both the Legion and the Void want the World Soul is reason enough to want to preserve it/deny it to them even if one is skeptical of the planet being unable to exist without it.

I think Magni is showing that he doesn't really have a clue what's going on. Rounding up priest and other healers to "heal" something when they have no idea where to start... destroying powerful artifacts as a bandaid sacrifice. running around collecting the "blood" of Azeroth and trying to seal up wounds? I mean it sounds good, but by his own admission he doesn't know what to do.

As to the preserve it? I see little reason to hold onto the "carrot" multiple world destroying forces are chasing. Sure we can see it's "valuable" and exceedingly rare by the standards set by the Titans or titan level entities... but it's a value that exceeds what our characters can fathom and could cost us our own existence to maintain alone.

[Jastall]

I think Magni is showing that he doesn't really have a clue what's going on. Rounding up priest and other healers to "heal" something when they have no idea where to start... destroying powerful artifacts as a bandaid sacrifice. running around collecting the "blood" of Azeroth and trying to seal up wounds? I mean it sounds good, but by his own admission he doesn't know what to do.

As to the preserve it? I see little reason to hold onto the "carrot" multiple world destroying forces are chasing. Sure we can see it's "valuable" and exceedingly rare by the standards set by the Titans or titan level entities... but it's a value that exceeds what our characters can fathom and could cost us our own existence to maintain alone.

That's not up to us to decide considering that said forces try to exterminate us before they attempt to molest the titan baby inside the planet. We're in this together whenever you like it or not.