Who would you say is the main faction of the story?

[allawyn]

It is about spending a lot, and i mean a LOT of time on forums of all kinds, from official Blizz forums to MMOchamp to even places like Reditt or Discord servers and sort of noticing a great difference in numbers between those who were for and against Teld burning. Thats what its all about. And yes, we do have a right to call out the fact that you liked the dish but when the time came to pay you started crying that it was not up to your palette.
Its all we have left, because Bluzz stole everything else from us. We cant avenge it or do anything so we can at least not let it fizzle out like that.

I have to say, the numbers of posts against Teldrasil that I've seen far exceed those for, even given that moist of those for were people trolling rather than expressing a sincere opinion.

The fact is that such measures are known to be inaccurate. Actual Horde players know what has happened to their guilds, know what people they have lost to unsubscribing, and know what they hear when talk to other Horde players. While these are not systematic either, they are at least free of systematic sampling error that measure based on those who are eager to say something have. And the picture they paint is that Horde players hate the expansion.

Now, in the end, you can't know what other people think better than they know themselves. If you think you can convince Horde players they were having fun when they weren't, that would be delusional. If you don't Blizzard doesn't already know what the numbers say, think again.

[Mehrunes]

According to the fascinating tales about the demon of HORDE BIAS that I've been told are totally not a conspiracy theory built on cherry-picking data and ignoring anything inconvenient to it (starting with basic logic), the Alliance doesn't even have a story. Which would mean that the question in the OP is in itself biased against the Alliance as well.

You already got a player choice system inside your questline which the Alliance did not, how entitled can Horde players even be?

Ah, yes, what a choice it was. Either helping the traitors to the Horde or... helping the traitors to the Horde! With one of the "choices" having a "lel play along" written in small font. Weirdly enough something tells me that if it was the Alliance that got such "choice" that would act as a chief example of HORDE BIAS. And yeah, the complaints from Alliance are completely devoid of any entitlement. It is known (if you don't pay attention to things like, I dunno, Alliance demanding a Horde racial model for nearly 15 years).

Some Hordies will never be happy until Alliance is completely deleted from the franchise. Meanwhile, Alliance simply wants to stop being NPCs for them.

Given how everything that exists in WoW constitutes """"""""""proof"""""""""" of HORDE BIAS to you, this remark is as ironic as the last time you made it.

[logmantv]

[QUOTE=
Wagging a finger and turning another cheek is not “winning”.[/QUOTE]

Killing Rastakan really isn't "wagging a finger"

[allawyn]

No, I'm going to keep noting all the people around me who have left the game because of this.

It is a logical fallacy to claim a general statement about something based on anecdotal evidence.

Ah, so anecdotal evidence is fine when you do it?

I'm not trying to make a general assertion, you are. A general assertion of fact can be disproven be example. You can assert that all animals are fish. It doesn't help the assertion to list hundreds of animals that are, in fact, fish. But listing just one animal that isn't a fish disproves the assertion.

A similar situation occurs with less universal assertions. You can assert that most animals are fish. Again, your examples prove nothing. Counter examples show that such examples are not universal. Though, admittedly, to the degree that counter an arguement that is already insufficient, they are limited.

[/quote]Wait, let me get this straight. Pointing out that Horde players enjoyed Teldrassil, in which an Alliance city was taken away and a core race canonically reduced to nearly extinct refugees, is saying Alliance should be given something by taking something away from Horde. Do what?[/QUOTE]

Leaving aside the hyperbole, you got it mostly right. You just need to actually try and understand. The forums have seen a lot of posts demanding plots that are an anathama to Horde players. Pointing out that they pay the same subscription rate that Alliance players has often been responded to with claims that they deserve it after what happened. Now Horde players didn't write this plot (though I've seen some claims that still blame them). So then the narrative comes up that the Horde players enjoyed getting the villian bat and now must suffer so Alliance players can "get even".

It's all a load of garbage to me. But it does explain why people think they can tell other people how they felt about something.

[Mehrunes]

Not only is that debatable, there is also something something about men for themself and something something about one race making up 80% of arena characters.

Who cares about PvP? Unless it's Vanilla PvP when Horde racials were arguably stronger, then it's the most important aspect of the game (even more so when you consider that Alliance had the advantage in PvE then instead, which necessitates that the importance of PvE is to be downplayed as well).

Horde doesn't get 3 cinematics. Saurfang sadness did.

Wait, you don't think a human boi-king explaining to Saurfang (who at the time has already betrayed and abandoned the Horde but w/e) what honor is and then telling him what the Horde is actually about were Horde's crowning moments of awesome?

Also what was story development for horde again? Repeating same story for a 3rd time? Is this that famous bias?

Please, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to HORDE BIAS. Repeating the same story (of throwing the Horde under the bus, removing its leader, making it collapse on itself and kowtow to human idiot that should have lost the war within a week) is just one of the examples, but there are also HORDE BIAS things like this here in-game cheese (i.e. Horde characters being able to eat a cheese named after a human kingdom, even if it's one that betrayed the Alliance), the Zandalari Shaman's water totem (blue color is sole property of the Alliance) or, you know, the Horde existing at all. And roughly 43 vigintillion other examples.

Oh on topic of friendship its kinda funny how horde leaders are also written into rather befriending some teenage boy that doing their job. And not so mentally stable mage with slight genocidal tendencies.

Well no, it only works one way, duh. It would be inconvenient to the totally-not-a-conspiracy-theory otherwise.

[VladlTutushkin]

Who cares about PvP? Unless it's Vanilla PvP when Horde racials were arguably stronger, then it's the most important aspect of the game (even more so when you consider that Alliance had the advantage in PvE then instead, which necessitates that the importance of PvE is to be downplayed as well).




Wait, you don't think a human boi-king explaining to Saurfang (who at the time has already betrayed and abandoned the Horde but w/e) what honor is and then telling him what the Horde is actually about were Horde's crowning moments of awesome?




Please, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to HORDE BIAS. Repeating the same story (of throwing the Horde under the bus, removing its leader, making it collapse on itself and kowtow to human idiot that should have lost the war within a week) is just one of the examples, but there are also HORDE BIAS things like this here in-game cheese (i.e. Horde characters being able to eat a cheese named after a human kingdom, even if it's one that betrayed the Alliance), the Zandalari Shaman's water totem (blue color is sole property of the Alliance) or, you know, the Horde existing at all. And roughly 43 vigintillion other examples.




Well no, it only works one way, duh. It would be inconvenient to the totally-not-a-conspiracy-theory otherwise.

Your attempts at ridiculing “horde bias” theme are about as weak as current position of a Warchief.

[Jastall]

As far as who has the most story focus, that's the Horde and I do not see how that is even arguable. Horde (sometimes ex-Horde or AU Horde or whatever) tend to drive entire expansions; Garrosh in Mists and Sylvanas in BFA being prime examples but by no means the only ones. Saurfang got like 20 minutes of cinematics dedicated to his BFA arc. There was an entire expansion billed as us encountering old Orc heroes (and killing most of them, sure, but still). A major Alliance race got their city burned and all the writers seemed to care about is how sad it made an Orc to witness it.

The only expansion where the Alliance got notably more focus is Legion, and even then it was more of an emphasis on Alliance themes and associated races than a focus on the actual playable faction, and most of that was in 7.3. Wrath maybe had a bit of an Alliance advantage if you count the Argent Crusade as an organization with mostly Alliance ties but given that we're fighting Arthas I find it hard to fault Blizzard for that at all.

That doesn't make the Horde the "main" faction, but it's clear who gets the most focus in terms of story. Not that it helps the Horde get better stories, mind, we're just fucked over in a different way than the Alliance is. They have to be the passive shmucks that get dropkicked but can't punch back and see their characters become passive neutral entities, we get to be hit with the villain bat and see our characters either die or go off to be eeeevil somewhere else.

[Itori]

The horde have been the focal point for a long time, the alliance kind of feels like the sidekick.

[Verdugo]

The Horde still got the choice whether to be a loyalist or a rebel, the alliance got nothing and just shit at the entirety of the time, so Horde players could at least stop with their entitled complaints.

You got the choice to name a ship, it has about as much meaning as the horde "choice".

[Arrashi]

Your attempts at ridiculing “horde bias” theme are about as weak as current position of a Warchief.

To be fair, people talking about "horde bias" bear uncanny resemblance to Alex Jones talking about chemicals in the water.

[Feanoro]

I guess the core value of the Horde is entitlement.

Always has been. Somehow, Azeroth OWES the orcs lands after they destroyed their planet and invaded in full genocide mode, by their own gullibility and bad choices. When that's one of the pillars of a story, it's not surprising that the rest of the story has similar spoiled brat syndrome, nor is it surprising that fans pick up on it.

I'm not trying to make a general assertion, you are. A general assertion of fact can be disproven be example. You can assert that all animals are fish. It doesn't help the assertion to list hundreds of animals that are, in fact, fish. But listing just one animal that isn't a fish disproves the assertion.

A similar situation occurs with less universal assertions. You can assert that most animals are fish. Again, your examples prove nothing. Counter examples show that such examples are not universal. Though, admittedly, to the degree that counter an arguement that is already insufficient, they are limited.

That's very nice, and it would be the case if I remotely said "all Horde players enjoyed Teldrassil". Outside of you desperately trying to rewrite reality, that hasn't happened. You have asserted that no Horde players enjoyed Teldrassil. I provided examples where they did. You have since flailed around doing the very thing you're accusing me.

Leaving aside the hyperbole, you got it mostly right. You just need to actually try and understand. The forums have seen a lot of posts demanding plots that are an anathama to Horde players. Pointing out that they pay the same subscription rate that Alliance players has often been responded to with claims that they deserve it after what happened. Now Horde players didn't write this plot (though I've seen some claims that still blame them). So then the narrative comes up that the Horde players enjoyed getting the villian bat and now must suffer so Alliance players can "get even".

It's all a load of garbage to me. But it does explain why people think they can tell other people how they felt about something.

Look in a mirror, because you're insisting on the very thing you claim to deplore, one side getting a story at the other side's expense. You're demanding a story where the Horde has leveled a city and faces no repercussions, i.e. a story that's awful for Alliance. Why do you think Horde deserves special treatment in getting no bad stories? After all, we've had this forum's literary experts telling us all how conflict and trial lead to good stories, shouldn't the Horde welcome a chance to grow? The fact that they answer No is because they know damn well that's not how it works from watching Alliance repeatedly get stomped in the dirt and not one positive thing comes of it.

I particularly love that with more than me telling you that cheers and jokes about Teldrassil were on Blizz forums, MMO-C, Reddit, various Discords, youtube, and more, it's all a narrative. Riiiiiight. A few of us clearly went and planted all those false flags to discredit the Horde! Stay woke!

[allawyn]

Always has been. Somehow, Azeroth OWES the orcs lands after they destroyed their planet and invaded in full genocide mode, by their own gullibility and bad choices. When that's one of the pillars of a story, it's not surprising that the rest of the story has similar spoiled brat syndrome, nor is it surprising that fans pick up on it.

That's very nice, and it would be the case if I remotely said "all Horde players enjoyed Teldrassil". Outside of you desperately trying to rewrite reality, that hasn't happened. You have asserted that no Horde players enjoyed Teldrassil. I provided examples where they did. You have since flailed around doing the very thing you're accusing me.

You have repeatedly referred to Horde players as a whole. The implication is clear. Nor would a minority of Horde players liking Teldrasil support most of the points you try and make from that. The idea that those posts meant to refer to a minority of Horde players is not credible.

Now I do believe that "Horde players", as in "most" Horde players didn't like BfA and Teldrasil. This is based on what I see from Horde youtubers, from my guild, from my Friends, and even from what people are actually saying on the forum. Now I wouldn't claim this proof, but then, I'm not trying to make any claim based on this.

But this pointless. If you think you can convince anyone that what you claim about how Horde players feel is more correct than what Horde players actually feel, well good luck. You are wasting your time.

[Feanoro]

You have repeatedly referred to Horde players as a whole. The implication is clear.

In other words, you have chosen to interpret my posts a particular way, with no real basis for doing so. You do this to try to twist it that I'm telling you how you feel, which would be ridiculous, in order to avoid debating what I've actually written. You repeatedly bring up other people's arguments, lump me in with them, and argue against them. At no point have you actually read what I've written or attempted to address my points. You're doing so to defend a status quo in which Horde players are given a story (regardless of enjoyment by any percentage of the playerbase, is that pedantic enough for you?) at the Alliance players' expense. Effectively, you're arguing in support of the very writing behaviors you claim to deplore.

Nor would a minority of Horde players liking Teldrasil support most of the points you try and make from that. The idea that those posts meant to refer to a minority of Horde players is not credible.

Hey look, here's you inventing things for me to say, then arguing against them. I wonder if there's a word for that?

Now I do believe that "Horde players", as in "most" Horde players didn't like BfA and Teldrasil. This is based on what I see from Horde youtubers, from my guild, from my Friends, and even from what people are actually saying on the forum. Now I wouldn't claim this proof, but then, I'm not trying to make any claim based on this.

You "believe" it. That's nice. You've been trying to claim that the whole of the Horde didn't enjoy Teldrassil. You were provided counter examples. You have repeatedly denied their existence. Oh, and nice attempt to shift the goalposts with "Horde players didn't like BfA and Teldrassil" when we weren't discussing the entirety of BfA. Yes, I'm well aware that since Sylvie made the Horde look like fools that Hordies don't like the ending.

But this pointless. If you think you can convince anyone that what you claim about how Horde players feel is more correct than what Horde players actually feel, well good luck. You are wasting your time.

Hey look, a sentence that does in fact attempt to speak for the entire Horde. What do you know, I'm not the one who wrote it! For another thing, I'm not trying to convince anyone what the Horde feels, that'd be you, doing your best to push the idea that the whole Horde hated the idiot faction war, therefore Alliance should continue to get nothing.

You hated it? Sorry to hear it. Fred over there loved it? Great, good for him. Both are pretty damn irrelevant to George the Alliance player who watched yet another Horde story where he got nothing but lost lands, lives, and humiliation. Again.

[Tripzzz]

Horde definitely gets more attention and focus. Doesn't matter if the writers are trash, because the Alliance also gets a shit story and less narrative focus.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair, people talking about "horde bias" bear uncanny resemblance to Alex Jones talking about chemicals in the water.

Lmao. Sure. That's why blizzard CMs were literally trolling alliance players after Teldrassil.

https://ptr.wowhead.com/bluetracker?topic=20765616392

[Mehrunes]

Your attempts at ridiculing “horde bias” theme are about as weak as current position of a Warchief.

Which still makes it 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times stronger than the premise of HORDE BIAS being anything other than a conspiracy theory relying on a boatload of logical fallacies.

[Tripzzz]

Which still makes it 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times stronger than the premise of HORDE BIAS being anything other than a conspiracy theory relying on a boatload of logical fallacies.

Explain a CM trolling alliance players and admitting he mains horde then.

https://ptr.wowhead.com/bluetracker?topic=20765616392

[Mehrunes]

As far as who has the most story focus, that's the Horde and I do not see how that is even arguable. Horde (sometimes ex-Horde or AU Horde or whatever) tend to drive entire expansions; Garrosh in Mists and Sylvanas in BFA being prime examples but by no means the only ones. Saurfang got like 20 minutes of cinematics dedicated to his BFA arc. There was an entire expansion billed as us encountering old Orc heroes (and killing most of them, sure, but still). A major Alliance race got their city burned and all the writers seemed to care about is how sad it made an Orc to witness it.

Ex-Horde characters aren't Horde. That's kinda what the "ex" part conveys. The more you know. By that metric WotLK is an Alliance expansion. The same applies a thousandfold to AU characters. But yes, if you have to count characters that have fuck all to do with the Horde like people from a whole other universe as Horde because it's convenient that way, of course you won't see how that's even arguable.

The only expansion where the Alliance got notably more focus is Legion, and even then it was more of an emphasis on Alliance themes and associated races than a focus on the actual playable faction, and most of that was in 7.3. Wrath maybe had a bit of an Alliance advantage if you count the Argent Crusade as an organization with mostly Alliance ties but given that we're fighting Arthas I find it hard to fault Blizzard for that at all.

Would you look at that, you outright mentioned the Arthas example only to be inconsistent about your whole "let's count ex-faction members" shtick. Majestic.

[Feanoro]

Horde definitely gets more attention and focus. Doesn't matter if the writers are trash, because the Alliance also gets a shit story and less narrative focus.

Bingo!

Lmao. Sure. That's why blizzard CMs were literally trolling alliance players after Teldrassil.

https://ptr.wowhead.com/bluetracker?topic=20765616392

The people who benefit from the bias won't acknowledge it for fear it would end.

[Mehrunes]

Explain a CM trolling alliance players and admitting he mains horde then.

https://ptr.wowhead.com/bluetracker?topic=20765616392

Do you have anything to establish causal relationship between the two here other than your assumptions? And oh noes, a CM (who's not exactly a high ranking employee by any stretch of imagination) made a joke. That truly proves HORDE BIAS being real. I see it now. Does that mean Blizzard will be out to get me now? Also, how comes in your reply to @Arrashi you were talking about multiple CMs?

The people who benefit from the bias won't acknowledge it for fear it would end.

Vide Alliance players not acknowledging things like Alliance having more zones between Vanilla and WotLK which was an objective case of faction imbalance as it's something that could have been actually counted. Instead Blizzard fixing that imbalance is to this day treated as one of the biggest "proofs" of HORDE BIAS being totally real.

Meanwhile you have a CM making a joke, blowing it out of proportion and trying to conjure a causal link between the CM being Horde and them making that joke based on nothing but your assumptions and how convenient said assumptions are for your claims (and then projecting it across the entire game and company). Which is textbook conspiracy theory crafting.

[Tripzzz]

Do you have anything to establish causal relationship between the two here other than your assumptions? And oh noes, a CM (who's not exactly a high ranking employee by any stretch of imagination) made a joke. That truly proves HORDE BIAS being real. I see it now. Does that mean Blizzard will be out to get me now? Also, how comes in your reply to @Arrashi you were talking about multiple CMs?

- - - Updated - - -



Vide Alliance players not acknowledging things like Alliance having more zones between Vanilla and WotLK which was an objective case of faction imbalance as it could have been actually counted. Instead Blizzard fixing that imbalance is to this day treated as one of the biggest "proofs" of HORDE BIAS.

Meanwhile you have a CM making a joke, blowing it out of proportion and trying to conjure a causal link between the CM being Horde and them making that joke based on nothing but your assumptions and how convenient said assumptions are for your claims. Which is textbook conspiracy theory crafting.

Lmao. It proves blizzard employees who favor horde actively slanders and troll alliance players. Something you claim doesnt exist yet when presented with proof you try to downplay it.