BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[Nitros14]

If raiding is all you consider content sure, but I actually like doing other things than raiding and so do a lot of people.
Classic has a lot of front loaded content but once you get past a certain point there is nothing to do except raid log. In every single expansion they have always added things that give you a reason to log in other than to raid (or PvP if you're in to that).

I'm sorry but take away the raids and Classic has nothing to offer a PVE player at max level for more than a month, maybe two if you're a casual player.

What I really miss about the game before Legion and BFA is raid logging actually.

Legion and BFA have endless grinds where you constantly have to log on and farm fucking artifact power or do your dumb weekly M+ or weekly island expeditions or grind for legiondaries or do mindless world quests. Obnoxious bullshit. The game sucks outside of raiding. The last time I really enjoyed the retail game is WOD.

[Jazzhands]

Yes, only that the fights took 30s and they pulled adds ontop of the boss instead of a 6 (?) min ST fight.

I am not saying that naxx will take weeks to clear, you are just comparing the not comparable.

Yeah, no.

I checked for adds and made sure I was checking pure ST fights, and tried to use logs on the longer side, to get a better idea of average DPS. Patchwerk is the only fight I was comparing, the other fights have more going on, but Patchwerk is often considered the gear check fight, so he's a good measuring point.

Regardless though, currently on Warcraft logs are warriors pulling 1k-1.5k pure ST DPS over a 1 min fight. Their only CD to really change up average DPS is Recklessness, which is a 30 min CD so is only used on specific fights. This is just in MC. Rogues and casters are lower, but they get much better with gear, and mages especially get crazy when they can go Fire with proper gear.

Patchwerk has 3.9 million HP. I don't really remember what specific numbers we used for Naxx, but let's just say 2 tanks, 12 healers, and 26 DPS. Patchwerk has a 7 minute timer until soft enrage. So 3.9 Million damage over 420 seconds comes out to needing ~9,300 DPS. 9,300 DPS across 26 people, so not even including tank DPS, comes out to each person needing to do about 360 DPS.

That's it. 360 DPS is the minimum requirement to down Patchwerk. People are already doing double this amount, some even triple or more. On top of that, groups likely will be running less than 12 healers, I mostly did that just to show how pathetically easy this content is. And gear is only going to get better, much much better. Patchwerk is going to explode.

[Kralljin]

Their only CD to really change up average DPS is Recklessness, which is a 30 min CD so is only used on specific fights.

You forgot Deathwish.
Which is a flat 20% increase for 30sec.

comes out to each person needing to do about 360 DPS.

The problem of this discussion is that world buffs & consumables completely skew the entire picture.
And the big question here is whether you are willing to put yourself through the effort to always have all consumables (which is kinda expensive, especially as Melee) and all World buffs.

The thing about logs is, they don't track world buffs properly.
And if you're telling me, a Warrior does 1,6k Dps over ~30sec without world buffs (or consumables), then i want to know what a Warrior does with world buffs.

Getting all World buffs is a pain. Period.

I don't think Patchwerk will pose a challenge, but World buffs skew the numbers by an extreme degree.

[xpose]

If raiding is all you consider content sure, but I actually like doing other things than raiding and so do a lot of people.
Classic has a lot of front loaded content but once you get past a certain point there is nothing to do except raid log. In every single expansion they have always added things that give you a reason to log in other than to raid (or PvP if you're in to that).

I'm sorry but take away the raids and Classic has nothing to offer a PVE player at max level for more than a month, maybe two if you're a casual player.

Bro, BFA offers nothing past the first WEEK let alone month. Knowing gear is getting replaced in four months makes trying to acquire anything other than collectibles pretty pointless especially when you know catch up gear is going to come out. Motivation for character progression doesn't exist in retail.

[Asrialol]

Bro, BFA offers nothing past the first WEEK let alone month. Knowing gear is getting replaced in four months makes trying to acquire anything other than collectibles pretty pointless especially when you know catch up gear is going to come out. Motivation for character progression doesn't exist in retail.

Interesting opinion, but I think most people disagree.

[Echocho]

Bro, BFA offers nothing past the first WEEK let alone month. Knowing gear is getting replaced in four months makes trying to acquire anything other than collectibles pretty pointless especially when you know catch up gear is going to come out. Motivation for character progression doesn't exist in retail.

I never claimed BfA was a good example of a better model, I don't know why you feel the need to drag that dumpster fire into a discussion about Classic.

PRO tip: If you want to dismantle my claim that Classic has no content then do it by proving the opposite, not by pointing at something else that is also bad as an excuse.

[jackofwind]

You forgot Deathwish.
Which is a flat 20% increase for 30sec.



The problem of this discussion is that world buffs & consumables completely skew the entire picture.
And the big question here is whether you are willing to put yourself through the effort to always have all consumables (which is kinda expensive, especially as Melee) and all World buffs.

The thing about logs is, they don't track world buffs properly.
And if you're telling me, a Warrior does 1,6k Dps over ~30sec without world buffs (or consumables), then i want to know what a Warrior does with world buffs.

Getting all World buffs is a pain. Period.

I don't think Patchwerk will pose a challenge, but World buffs skew the numbers by an extreme degree.

More than that, World Buffs trivialize all raid content. We'd be in a better place if entering a raid removed them (even temporarily until you exit the raid).

[FlubberPuddy]

Yeah, no.

I checked for adds and made sure I was checking pure ST fights, and tried to use logs on the longer side, to get a better idea of average DPS. Patchwerk is the only fight I was comparing, the other fights have more going on, but Patchwerk is often considered the gear check fight, so he's a good measuring point.

Regardless though, currently on Warcraft logs are warriors pulling 1k-1.5k pure ST DPS over a 1 min fight. Their only CD to really change up average DPS is Recklessness, which is a 30 min CD so is only used on specific fights. This is just in MC. Rogues and casters are lower, but they get much better with gear, and mages especially get crazy when they can go Fire with proper gear.

Patchwerk has 3.9 million HP. I don't really remember what specific numbers we used for Naxx, but let's just say 2 tanks, 12 healers, and 26 DPS. Patchwerk has a 7 minute timer until soft enrage. So 3.9 Million damage over 420 seconds comes out to needing ~9,300 DPS. 9,300 DPS across 26 people, so not even including tank DPS, comes out to each person needing to do about 360 DPS.

That's it. 360 DPS is the minimum requirement to down Patchwerk. People are already doing double this amount, some even triple or more. On top of that, groups likely will be running less than 12 healers, I mostly did that just to show how pathetically easy this content is. And gear is only going to get better, much much better. Patchwerk is going to explode.

Yeah! I remember reading through some old comments on wowhead and people were talking about how "if the dps can do about an avg of 350 dps for patchwerk that'll be fine enough to clear the whole raid" and here in Classic we already see people on the regular pulling 600+ dps for MC fights. 350 avg dps is (right now in Classic) like "meme spec" level (aka ret). So thanks for confirming it.

So that was actually good to know that we as players have evolved to make Classic content pretty much a cake-walk I mean ofc people will still need to strategize etc, but I think the biggest change will be the common sentiment that was "you're going to have to grind for hours to have enough consumables to even have a chance at completing the raid" when PuGs clearing Classic raids are such a norm and I believe they will continue to be the norm.

Players have just gotten more efficient for the difficulty of Classic content.

[Bisso]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

man, everytime i see this, imagine taking 3 months to kill Onyxia, hahahahaha, boy were we shit back then.

[Kralljin]

man, everytime i see this, imagine taking 3 months to kill Onyxia, hahahahaha, boy were we shit back then.

If you consider that people had to level to 60 and figure out where to get the pre quest, i'd call it legit.

I mean, imagine you're an Alliance dude and after doing a bunch of quests in Burning steppes you're sent into BRD, dude in there rambles some cryptic shit, you get out of BRD, questgiver tells that the dude you were supposed to rescue is bonkers and the questchain ends with a reward like usual.

Then, by pure chance you go back into BRD and find some random quest item that previously never dropped from a random trash mob, go back to that mad dude in BRD and now suddenly the chain continues.

Then after some additional quests, you're sent to find someone who is:
1.A dragon disguising itself as humanoid
2.They *might* be friendly towards you

(Reminder, there are other npc's that fit this description but aren't correct)

If you find that person, figure out where this Drakkisath is in Blackrockspire, you might have been in that Blackrockspire Instance, but never ran into any boss called "Drakkisath", there is seemingly a door on the left however.
How to open it? Who knows.

Same goes for Horde side.
The fact that this is basically the only quest in the game (which i know of) where you first have to talk to some random npc, go through the entire dialogue, only to drop an item into your inventory which then starts the quest is one massive curveball.

In a time before guides and databases, this in itself was a blockade.

The thing about this is, that's one of these things you truly can't get back, must have been one massive treasure hunt for those people to figure out how to get this weird "Drakefire Talisman" which you seemingly need to enter that green portal in Dustwallow Marsh.
And it's not like this "Mind riddlers worm" thing on Retail (these things are still cool however) where you get some cosmetic, but access to an actual boss that awards loot.

[Nitros14]

Patchwerk has 3.9 million HP. I don't really remember what specific numbers we used for Naxx, but let's just say 2 tanks, 12 healers, and 26 DPS. Patchwerk has a 7 minute timer until soft enrage. So 3.9 Million damage over 420 seconds comes out to needing ~9,300 DPS. 9,300 DPS across 26 people, so not even including tank DPS, comes out to each person needing to do about 360 DPS.

That's it. 360 DPS is the minimum requirement to down Patchwerk. People are already doing double this amount, some even triple or more. On top of that, groups likely will be running less than 12 healers, I mostly did that just to show how pathetically easy this content is. And gear is only going to get better, much much better. Patchwerk is going to explode.

Patchwerk needs four tanks or melee will die if you're even slightly slow on topping the tanks. Hateful strike hits the highest HP target in melee range that is also in the top four on threat and isn't the main tank.

Also as noted, Patchwerk's dps requirement is fairly lenient. It was considered a difficult fight for healers. Loatheb was considered the dps wall of Naxxramas, still not going to be massively hard but yeah.

5.6 million HP, 5 minute soft enrage, you do get a buff (not everyone though, spore every 20 seconds 1 minute buff duration for 5 players) but also lose 24 seconds of dps time to bandaging and more to running around after the spores. Need around ~14 healers to keep the tank up with one heal per minute as well. Average dps requirement per dps is about 750.

Don't get me wrong, it'll be easy for people optimizing and using consumables but let's be fair to the instance.

I still have screenshots from the ancient days of what people actually thought back then.

[Hottage]

Both BWL and AQ will be cleared first day they come out,BWL in around 3 hours tops,maybe less.

Lies, everyone knows it takes at least 3 hours to clear the Suppression Rooms.

[Bontchimuz]

Still better than anything since WotlK imho

[xuanmeme]

Interesting opinion, but I think most people disagree.

[kail]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

Is that chart basing on the hardest difficulties in each raid?

man, everytime i see this, imagine taking 3 months to kill Onyxia, hahahahaha, boy were we shit back then.

Infromation was rare back then and just figuring out how to access the raid, understand the boss mechanics, and take advantage of separate buffs or even know the optimal class play, and have 39 others do the same. If it's based on the release date of WoW, leveling to 60 when WoW just started was a feat alone.

With the knowledge now, MC turned from 5 months into a single week.

[Zentail]

Is that chart basing on the hardest difficulties in each raid?

It looks like it is with one inaccuracy: technically Hyjal in BC was available at launch according to Blizzard. It just wasn’t open until clearing the Eye.

[Maruka]

Every classic raid will be cleared on day one but that is fine. Its old content but it is still fun.

[kail]

It looks like it is with one inaccuracy: technically Hyjal in BC was available at launch according to Blizzard. It just wasn’t open until clearing the Eye.

So Hyjal would be the Eye plus the 26 days?

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting opinion, but I think most people disagree.

???

What's there to disagree about? BWL was cleared in less than an hour.

[arkanon]

Interesting opinion, but I think most people disagree.

You know it has been proven EXTREMELY accurate, with many grps clearing BWL in under an hour, and from memory over 2000 guilds LOGGING kills in the first 24 hours.

[Xath]

Yeah! I remember reading through some old comments on wowhead and people were talking about how "if the dps can do about an avg of 350 dps for patchwerk that'll be fine enough to clear the whole raid" and here in Classic we already see people on the regular pulling 600+ dps for MC fights. 350 avg dps is (right now in Classic) like "meme spec" level (aka ret). So thanks for confirming it.

So that was actually good to know that we as players have evolved to make Classic content pretty much a cake-walk I mean ofc people will still need to strategize etc, but I think the biggest change will be the common sentiment that was "you're going to have to grind for hours to have enough consumables to even have a chance at completing the raid" when PuGs clearing Classic raids are such a norm and I believe they will continue to be the norm.

Players have just gotten more efficient for the difficulty of Classic content.

Patchwerk was a tank check not a dps check honestly. Loatheb required more dps and was what consums ans world buffs were burned on.