Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Ophenia]

They have nav computers, the issue is that planet screws with ships ... which then makes me wonder "How does the Resistance get off planet?"

No no, apparently you can't do anything without this thing. Not even fight against visible targets or activate the shields.

Well, Palpatine's army can't. The rebels can do whatever they want. Because they're rebels.

[Kallisto]

I think the force healing stuff isn't a big deal, because this is Star Wars, and its not serious scifi meant to hold up to severe scrutiny by obsessed nerds.

Plus no one cares to hate on it over the past 25-30 years where it's been in every medium (books, games (Jedi knight, (ko)tor etc) has had force healing in.

But suddenly it is in the sequels it is bad?

[Sondrelk]

Plus no one cares to hate on it over the past 25-30 years where it's been in every medium (books, games (Jedi knight, (ko)tor etc) has had force healing in.

But suddenly it is in the sequels it is bad?

Because the movies are generally held to a higher standard.
The Force Unleashed was to my knowledge at some point canon, but few people cared that Starkiller was grossly overpowered in that game because it was a video game that sold itself on spectacle, and there was a tacit admission by all who played it that it wasnt "really" canon, because if it was then it would undermine the struggles posed by the jedi supposedly more powerful than him.

The Rise of Skywalker is a movie, so debating them in that context is completely valid, and in the movies Force healing has never been considered an option. But now that it has we are forced to start wondering why Rey can supposedly do these immense feats of Force prowess when Anakin, the actual chosen one whose immense talent with the force was a central plot point couldnt.
What makes it really egregious is that the movie seems to present the ability not as a difficult or rare feat that Rey learned from one of the books but as almost a basic skill, going by how she mentions doing it on instinct, and Kylo ren could do it just as easily at the end.

[Selastan]

Jumping in on the whole 'Force Healing' argument, it WAS a thing in the EU, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy for one. In the movie canon specifically, it fits in with what Palpatine said about using the Force to manipulate the midichlorians to create life, even 'save the ones he cared about from dying'. I'm finding a harder time believing in the whole 'force teleportation' thing where Ren and Rey somehow teleport items between each-other, I haven't seen that before, but it leads to some cool shots so I'll allow it.

[Sondrelk]

Jumping in on the whole 'Force Healing' argument, it WAS a thing in the EU, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy for one. In the movie canon specifically, it fits in with what Palpatine said about using the Force to manipulate the midichlorians to create life, even 'save the ones he cared about from dying'. I'm finding a harder time believing in the whole 'force teleportation' thing where Ren and Rey somehow teleport items between each-other, I haven't seen that before, but it leads to some cool shots so I'll allow it.

The Force teleportation thing is easier to swallow seeing as it seems to pretty clearly just be a thing between Rey and Kylo, which additionally was sorta shown in the previous movie.
Force Healing on the contrary does not really seem to fit in that well with what Palpatine and Plagueis tried to learn, it might have been something hinted at in a previous draft of the cript, or even a deleted scene, seeing as Palpatine was quite insistent on finding Rey specifically. But honestly the theory is already weakened by Kylo Ren doing it as well at the end, meaning that on some level JJ Abrams is trying to imply that it is possible to do for any Jedi.

[Elim Garak]

Oh come off it. Now you're just throwing words around. You just want to insult me but you're too weak to actually say something that will get you moderated.

Moderated? You mean like get 5 infraction points for insulting you? Is that scary for you? The whole 5 points?
Do you think that would restrain me from doing it if I wanted to?

Think again

You are just being self-absorbed in your close-minded position, hand-waving canonical explanations, assuming idiocy on the part of the writers and I'm pointing it out.

[Selastan]

The Force teleportation thing is easier to swallow seeing as it seems to pretty clearly just be a thing between Rey and Kylo, which additionally was sorta shown in the previous movie.
Force Healing on the contrary does not really seem to fit in that well with what Palpatine and Plagueis tried to learn, it might have been something hinted at in a previous draft of the cript, or even a deleted scene, seeing as Palpatine was quite insistent on finding Rey specifically. But honestly the theory is already weakened by Kylo Ren doing it as well at the end, meaning that on some level JJ Abrams is trying to imply that it is possible to do for any Jedi.

Like I said, healing WAS a thing in the Expanded Universe, for sure in Jedi Academy, possibly elsewhere. BUT if the movie wanted to make it a Palpatine thing specifically, it could just be Ren giving Rey back the life she gave to him earlier, after she impaled him. Since Leia doesn't go into the Force until after Ren dies, I interpreted that as it was her giving him life, allowing him to live after Rey healed the wound. That SHOULD have killed him, but thanks to a combination of Leia's spirit and Rey's healing, he lived a bit longer. I really don't believe that Leia basically killed herself just to telepathically say 'Ben' once. Her spirit was there doing SOMETHING.

[Selastan]

And, since the healing Rey had done didn't seem to affect her at all, yet it KILLED Ren, I think what he did was different. It might have been portrayed similarly to Rey's healing, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't that. I think it was Leia's Force spirit or whatever going from Ren to Rey, which explains the 'Rey Skywalker' at the ending. She inherits Leia's life energy from Ben Skywalker, making her a sort of Skywalker.

[Elim Garak]

You just keep throwing these weak insults around as if you think you're really burning me. All because I've pointed out that writers make things up.

What do you even disagree with? What's the big exception that you're taking with the idea that writers of fiction are making things up, anyway? Did you think they weren't making things up all this time?

Oooh, gaslighting. Classic.

Here is the link to the actual argument we are having: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52007576

You claimed that writers just make things up, which they of course do, they write fiction, duh. But you also claimed they just invent stuff for the sake of the stuff and fuck consistency, which is obviously not true. Sometimes it happens, but this movie is not that case.

[Sondrelk]

Like I said, healing WAS a thing in the Expanded Universe, for sure in Jedi Academy, possibly elsewhere. BUT if the movie wanted to make it a Palpatine thing specifically, it could just be Ren giving Rey back the life she gave to him earlier, after she impaled him. Since Leia doesn't go into the Force until after Ren dies, I interpreted that as it was her giving him life, allowing him to live after Rey healed the wound. That SHOULD have killed him, but thanks to a combination of Leia's spirit and Rey's healing, he lived a bit longer. I really don't believe that Leia basically killed herself just to telepathically say 'Ben' once. Her spirit was there doing SOMETHING.

You have to remember that the movie canon and the extended canon is only tangentially connected, at least the movies to the rest of the EU.
In the movies Obi-wan and Yoda are the last Jedi until Luke is trained and redeems Anakin. In the extended canon there are loads of Jedi floating about, including Kanan Jarrus, Ahsoka, possibly the guy from the new Star Wars game and potentially as many as is feasibly possibly to realistically squeeze into the universe.
Similarly, as i mentioned in a previous post. In the old Canon there was a game called The Force Unleashed, about Starkiller running around with his immense OP force powers killing storm troopers by the thousands, pulling star destroyers out of the sky and surviving a fall from low orbit seemingly without much trouble.

Both of these instances are clearly established as canon, none of them directly contradicts the movie, but it still would come across as disingenous if a whole bunch of random jedi who survived the purge showed up in the rebellion or resistance. Or what happened in The Last Jedi when Leia used her force powers to survive in space.

Video game canon is especially touchy when it comes to legitimacy in the canon, since it first and foremost has to adhere to being fun to play, not necessarily to being completely faithful to the movies. Meaning that when you have things like The Old Republic, or other Star Wars games being given force healing powers is not a big deal, but this does not immediately mean that it is okay to just throw it into the movies without giving a good explanation for why it shows up just now.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No no, apparently you can't do anything without this thing. Not even fight against visible targets or activate the shields.

Well, Palpatine's army can't. The rebels can do whatever they want. Because they're rebels.

They could do every thing other then tell up from down in the storm. They couldn’t use shields because they were in atmosphere and couldn’t shoot once the rebels got on the same level as them as they would hit other stardestroyer’s.

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The Force teleportation thing is easier to swallow seeing as it seems to pretty clearly just be a thing between Rey and Kylo, which additionally was sorta shown in the previous movie.
Force Healing on the contrary does not really seem to fit in that well with what Palpatine and Plagueis tried to learn, it might have been something hinted at in a previous draft of the cript, or even a deleted scene, seeing as Palpatine was quite insistent on finding Rey specifically. But honestly the theory is already weakened by Kylo Ren doing it as well at the end, meaning that on some level JJ Abrams is trying to imply that it is possible to do for any Jedi.

Kylo and Rey have a mental/force bond it’s brought up constantly in the movies so it would make sense that he would know how to do it if Rey did even more so after she uses it on him.

[relaxok]

I’ve looked around at a lot of post-TROS ‘star wars ranked’ lists searching twitter and such and was surprised to see lots of people have TLJ in their top 3-4. My impression that everybody hated it seems to have been quite unfounded.

[Sondrelk]

I’ve looked around at a lot of post-TROS ‘star wars ranked’ lists searching twitter and such and was surprised to see lots of people have TLJ in their top 3-4. My impression that everybody hated it seems to have been quite unfounded.

It is pretty shitty overall, but just like how more people have come to appreciate the prequels for having a well-crafted tragedy and epic scale hidden behind the bad aciting my guess is that others like me might have started to appreciate The Last Jedi for at least being the only Star Wars sequel that attempted to be different from the originals.
TFA was just a point for point rehash of ANH, and TROS does not have a single original bone in its body, instead making do with cashing in on nostalgia and generally advancing the story nowhere except for a brief detour of undermining the original trilogys powerful ending.
The Last Jedi on the flipside did at least attempt to try something new. It tried to do away with the idea of the force being strong in certain families, had Kylo Ren kill Snoke, which should have meant that the emperor stand-in was gone leaving the future uncertain, and generally tried to subvert expectations.
Now in my opinion it kinda sucked at doing that, since its idea of subverting expectations was pretty much limited to just insulting the audience by pretending it was clever, but at least it was something.


tl;dr:
Original trilogy was almost a point for point retelling of the Hero's journey that came at a time when that kind of story had fallen out of favor.
The Prequel trilogy was an epic tale of love, loss, betrayal and how fascism grows from uncertain times and a population so desperate for control they literally applaud the man crowning himself dictator in front of them.
The Sequels are a gossamer-thin Star Wars nostalgia cash-in spruced up with the best talent the industry has to offer, with only TLJ attempting to be something different even though it fails under its own ineptitude and contempt for its audience.

[sarahtasher]

Star Wars, IMO, had always immense difficulties going beyond the two ''good'' movies (I enjoyed all of them), ANH and ESRB.

[Selastan]

I’ve looked around at a lot of post-TROS ‘star wars ranked’ lists searching twitter and such and was surprised to see lots of people have TLJ in their top 3-4. My impression that everybody hated it seems to have been quite unfounded.

Star Wars fans are vocal about their hate. Very vocal. I like every Star Wars movie, even Phantom Menace, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm not shouting it from the rooftops like the people who hate it, so you don't hear my opinion rattling around in the echo chamber as much. They're good movies, Bront.

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It's like World of Warcraft. It has millions of players, people who love the game dearly, but if you try and guess public opinion of the game FROM THIS SITE then you would wonder why ANYONE plays at all.

[Ophenia]

They could do every thing other then tell up from down in the storm. They couldn’t use shields because they were in atmosphere and couldn’t shoot once the rebels got on the same level as them as they would hit other stardestroyer’s.

But they didn't move an inch ? The up is still at the exact same freaking place, don't imperial ships have any gyroscope ? But they have a planet-blowing cannon ?
I mean, you could even see the planet below the Ships, but they somehow "can't see where is the up from the down" ?

That's plot-convenient.

[Ihavewaffles]

And, since the healing Rey had done didn't seem to affect her at all, yet it KILLED Ren, I think what he did was different. It might have been portrayed similarly to Rey's healing, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't that. I think it was Leia's Force spirit or whatever going from Ren to Rey, which explains the 'Rey Skywalker' at the ending. She inherits Leia's life energy from Ben Skywalker, making her a sort of Skywalker.

I need to puke...

[Selastan]

I'm convinced the problem is people who think to 'meta' about these things. They don't see three new movies, they see Disney trying to cash in on a big purchase they made. Of course their opinion is going to be soured with that attitude. Everything sucks if you squint hard enough.

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I need to puke...

Yeah it's corny, but the main story has always been. Remember when the biggest coolest bad guy of all time Darth Vader sacrificed himself for the power of love? If you want depth and edge check out the expanded universe, or even canon side stories.

[Kumorii]

I'm convinced the problem is people who think to 'meta' about these things. They don't see three new movies, they see Disney trying to cash in on a big purchase they made. Of course their opinion is going to be soured with that attitude. Everything sucks if you squint hard enough.

Think that's more of a reason why they ended up bad and doesn't surprise people rather than that's why they dislike it. At least most. Can't deny there are some who hate it just because it's Disney too.
I for one couldn't care less and actually looked forward to more star wars movies... still find the new trilogy to be awful *Shrug* haven't watched TRoS but since the other two movies I don't expect much and mainly just want to see visual effects.

[Kyphael]

This may be a childish question, but if The Great Jedi Purge was order 66, what would order 69 be?