Who would you say is the main faction of the story?

[tankbug]

Since MOP it's been about the alliance. Horde's role is either treacherous, genocidal villains without the strength to win OR allies taking the back seat.

MOP: Horde goes bad, gets destroyed, lives on at the mercy of the Alliance
WOD: Mostly balanced, but main story driven by alliance or alliance race characters.
Legion: Voljin dies, Thrall goes limp, warchief now a villain. Main story driven by alliance or alliance race characters.
BFA: Horde goes fully evil, but alliance is winning anyway, and evil warchief gets overthrown. Horde now leaderless.

Yes, the alliance has suffered losses, but the Horde has become a breeding ground for power-crazy, racist, psychopaths. It has no clear goal, no honor and will only exist as the weaker, untrustworthy underdog until the writers are able to see them as more than dumb animals. And I would hate if they dialed up the elf presence to make up for it.

[Super Dickmann]

Then maybe the Horde fans should demand something other than "RAWR ME KILL PUNY ALLIANCE".

It wasn't a lack of material that made Blizzard cut the orcs out of any interaction with their two biggest bads in Legion to instead follow WC2 Alliance characters around. Nor to make a Forsaken-lite version in the KotEB while making the original article play a minimal role with the LK, ditto the blood elves.

The neutral savior plots would still be shit on a crusty roll if they had a Horde coat of paint on them instead of an Alliance one, see Green Jesus. It succeeds and fails solely on the basis of the material that's there. Deathwing and Thrall had nothing in terms of actual material or development, so that plot sucked. Velen and KJ had a lot of issues, so the Velen story was pretty good.

Alliance is the default because the Alliance cast doesn't die or turn evil, but instead turns bland and neutral, watering down its inherent themes, hence why the flip side of the Alliance dominance of those stories in theming is that actual Alliance players don't see it as their own.

[Mehrunes]

Did we really have Horde themes at the driver's seat because of Thrall during Cata? We had Horde themes because of Garrosh in multiple zones and those are largely loved by people. The issue was mostly . . . GOEL!!!!!! and maybe the 4.2 cinematic trailer making no sense (here is a patch about night elves with Malfurion center stage, let's make the cinematic about Thrall!) I honestly feel the problem was just that he was so poorly handled and that most of the backstory about why he was so important was in books the vast majority don't even know exist.

That backstory in the books was even worse than his presence in the 4.2 cinematic and relied on even harder hamfisting of Thrall into stories that had fuck all to do with him and the "reasons" for why he was important were flat out moronic. If those stories were actually in the game, Thrall's reception would have been even worse.

People hated on Aggra in the exact same way they later hated on Tyrande in Val'sharah; they just refuse to have any sympathy for a woman trying to save the man she loves (though in both cases you can also blame the voice acting being . . . abysmal?)

Or because she's merely an extension of Thrall and his awesomeness and because 90% of her dialogue in that questline was "GO'EL". Compared to the depth of the character her voice acting is a masterpiece.

The thing is - Alliance dosent “solve” anything. They just tag along as Horde fights Horde and then wag a finger at whatever faction that wins the civil war.

Horde truly fought Horde at Dazar'alor or Lordaeron.

Khadgar is half-quel'dorei, Alexstrasza is quel'dorei, and I think Nozdormu is so too.

I know it's painful to remember but the blood elves are part of the Horde and as you all keep repeating, high elves don't exist as an Alliance race.

Khadgar most certainly is not half-Quel'Dorei. Also, what?

Boy, I sure did love using a small cat to spy on the barricades outside of Orgrimmar while the Horde player was literally marching on Razor Hill with an army at their back.

I sure did love having literally no faction content at all during 7.2 while Alliance had the adventures of High King Anduin, which is the only time in WoW's entire history when a patch that had faction-related content had it only for one faction. Obviously that example is not brought up by people championing the story of HoRdE bIaS being totally real and out to get any and all Alliance player as it is inconvenient.

Or the time we get into a plane with a webcomic character and it fades to black. while the horde gets to fly in on a flying armada.

Yea blizzard is never gonna live that down.

Obviously the rushed mess that was Cataclysm didn't cut corners when it came to Horde zones and questlines. That's why Alterac was not even not updated but made devoid of any content.

Or BfA which is blatantly pandering to Forsaken fanboys, as if the Burning of Teldrassil and the travesty that are Undead NELFs wasn't clear enough.

Oh yes, undead Night Elves joining the Forsaken because they were forsaken by Elune was amazingly received by Forsaken fans. Dat pandering.

Then maybe the Horde fans should demand something other than "RAWR ME KILL PUNY ALLIANCE".

Obviously Horde fans are a hive-mind focused on one idea and one idea only

Whole undead night elfs plot was made solely to rub the salt into fresh wounds and enrage/depress the community. And then they baited and switched and forced us to forgive and forget. Yeah, dosent look like literally using development “power” to troll Alliance players.

Why end this here? Why not go all the way and say it was to depress them so much that those depressed members of community would commit suicide all so Blizzard could then harvest their organs and provide them to Horde players in need of a transplant, all in the name of HORDE BIAS?

Thats the problem though - they only demand frothing warmongers (okay maybe just warhawks) and complete “nationalists” (no i am not drawing nazi parallels here) who would never breathe the same air with Alliance character. BUT to save the world we need both factions to somehow cooperate so... Blizz are forced to use Alliance-related characters because they at least will tolerate Horde and work with them for the sake of Azeroth.

They work with the Horde so well that they attacked it over complete delusions during two different world-ending invasions.

It wasn't a lack of material that made Blizzard cut the orcs out of any interaction with their two biggest bads in Legion to instead follow WC2 Alliance characters around. Nor to make a Forsaken-lite version in the KotEB while making the original article play a minimal role with the LK, ditto the blood elves.

I don't disagree with your point about Forsaken and Blood Elven presence in WotLK, back in Wrath Knights of the Ebon Blade were Forsaken but worse, vide stuff like their members having a literal need to inflict suffering on the innocent. Hell, in two different quests about the Scarlet Onslaught they compared themselves to the Forsaken and talked how the Forsaken had good idea about how to act towards the Scarlet Crusade but they didn't go far enough.

[VladlTutushkin]

--- snip ---

You just had to over exaggerate and mock again right? Because surely there was a great narrative reason deeply imbedded in the lore to add an insult to injury and make night elven dead join their killers in a display of mind boggling stupidity rather then just rubbing it in the face of Alliance fans? But yeah, sure, go on and keep mocking, it dosent take much and even you can manage that.

Mod Edit: Don't quote entire large posts for a one-paragraph reply.

[Mehrunes]

You just had to over exaggerate and mock again right? Because surely there was a great narrative reason deeply imbedded in the lore to add an insult to injury and make night elven dead join their killers in a display of mind boggling stupidity rather then just rubbing it in the face of Alliance fans? But yeah, sure, go on and keep mocking, it dosent take much and even you can manage that.

It's hardly an over-exaggeration when you claim is that Blizzard wrote a specific story with the intent of making Alliance players depressed which is all sorts of surreal. If you expect me to take conspiracy theories seriously, manage your expectations better. Just because there was no great narrative reason (because the only thing related to WoW's plot that can be called great is its disappointment factor) doesn't automatically lead to the conclusion that Blizzard is out to get Alliance players.

[VladlTutushkin]

It's hardly an over-exaggeration when you claim is that Blizzard wrote a specific story with the intent of making Alliance players depressed which is all sorts of surreal. If you expect me to take conspiracy theories seriously, manage your expectations better. Just because there was no great narrative reason (because the only thing related to WoW's plot that can be called great is its disappointment factor) doesn't automatically lead to the conclusion that Blizzard is out to get Alliance players.

Very well lets try a comparison. Imagine your house got burned by someone. It sucks. Then same someone runs by you while you are trying to salvage something from the ruins and hits you with a bat and speeds down the road leaving you on the floor with a broken rib. Is that a coincidence or he wanted to hurt you again purposefully?

[Mehrunes]

Very well lets try a comparison. Imagine your house got burned by someone. It sucks. Then same someone runs by you while you are trying to salvage something from the ruins and hits you with a bat and speeds down the road leaving you on the floor with a broken rib. Is that a coincidence or he wanted to hurt you again purposefully?

Yes, yes. The comparison between an assault and someone writing a story you don't like is truly on point. You've opened my eyes right here.

[Aucald]

This tangent about Horde/Alliance bias and the general state of the story seems unrelated to the main topic of the thread. Let's pivot back to actual topic at hand.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yes, yes. The comparison between an assault and someone writing a story you don't like is truly on point. You've opened my eyes right here.

Its not about severity its about somebody doing something harmful once, which most likely a coincidence but when they do it twice thats a pattern. And they might do it not because they “hate” but because they treat anger and bitterness as “strong reaction” which they deem a positive thing , they even talked about that in interview. Also, cut down on sarcasm, thats just toxic at this point.

Infracted.

[TheFirstOnes]

There is no "main faction".

[bowlink]

This tangent about Horde/Alliance bias and the general state of the story seems unrelated to the main topic of the thread. Let's pivot back to actual topic at hand.

short anwser: Its horde has been since Cata

[allawyn]

In other words, you have chosen to interpret my posts a particular way, with no real basis for doing so. You do this to try to twist it that I'm telling you how you feel, which would be ridiculous, in order to avoid debating what I've actually written. You repeatedly bring up other people's arguments, lump me in with them, and argue against them. At no point have you actually read what I've written or attempted to address my points. You're doing so to defend a status quo in which Horde players are given a story (regardless of enjoyment by any percentage of the playerbase, is that pedantic enough for you?) at the Alliance players' expense. Effectively, you're arguing in support of the very writing behaviors you claim to deplore.

I'm sorry no. A general statements about a group, is a general statements about a group. Its not interpretation, it is grammar. A later claim, when challenged on this, that you meant a minority is not credible. If you meant something different, then you should look to where you post was in error. If you are trying to walk back a statement without admitting you were wrong, it isn't working.

[Stuff about how I haven't proven most Horde players hated Teldrasil even though I haven't really tried has been deleted because it is boring...]
If you want to agree that we both aren't in a position to truly know what most Horde players felt about it, I don't care. You are the one pushing a meme. Whether or not your arguments are as weak as I feel them to be is irrelevant and there is no chance you will look at them critically.

[schwarzkopf]

Humans. Everything else is background noise.

Yep - that's pretty much it.

Makes Alliance the Protagonist and Horde the Antagonist.

[Soon-TM]

Blizzard should bring back Sky-Admiral Catherine Rogers. make her depose Anduin like some Oliver Cromwell Archetype, with less beheading the king ofcoarse.

No, the beheading would be the most important part, so we can make sure he isn't returning at all. Except maybe as a ghost.

[Syegfryed]

Well he might look human to you, but that form is a half-elf by lore.
As for Nozdormu, with those ears, he is an elf.

half elf look like that kid from turaylion and Alleria, and all half elf have those years

besides half elf still is an alliance thing, and he is waaay more human than elven

[Feanoro]

@allawyn: I'm not walking back a damn thing. You chose to take my posts in this bizarre "you're telling Horde players what they feel" nonsense tangent. In a nutshell:

- You complained that NO Horde players enjoyed Teldrassil.

- I provided examples of Horde players who did.

- You proceeded to dismiss those examples as anecdotal evidence by providing your own anecdotal evidence. You effectively insist that anecdotal evidence proves nothing unless it's yours.

- Challenged on this, you insist I'm telling Horde players how they feel, which is pure nonsense.


As to the state of the story, our exchange can be boiled down to:

- You state that Horde players will be upset if Alliance players have a story at Horde's expense.

- I point out that Teldrassil and many other stories have been just that for Alliance, a Horde story at Alliance's expense.

- You attempt to deflect and insist that it's different... somehow.

I want the Alliance to get some form of revenge/reparations for the Horde's actions. "Pretend nothing happened, sit back and paint a fresh target on our backs" has been a shitty story every single time we've been forced to choke on it. It could easily be done without the Horde losing a damn thing in game, nor do I want to attack Horde players for the writers' shitshow.

Apparently, you have no problem with the status quo, i.e. Horde stories at Alliance expense, but are terribly upset at the idea of Alliance stories at Horde expense, receiving the treatment Alliance has been getting since end of Wrath. That's hypocrisy, whether you meant it or not, whether you realize it or not. As such, there's no point in continuing this.

Infracted.

Whether or not your arguments are as weak as I feel them to be is irrelevant and there is no chance you will look at them critically.

The staggering irony of this statement.

[allawyn]

I stand by what I said. The post are there for anyone to read (assuming anyone is bothering to follow along) and I think what was said is clear enough.

@allawyn: I'm not walking back a damn thing. You chose to take my posts in this bizarre "you're telling Horde players what they feel" nonsense tangent. In a nutshell:

- You complained that NO Horde players enjoyed Teldrassil.

- I provided examples of Horde players who did.

- You proceeded to dismiss those examples as anecdotal evidence by providing your own anecdotal evidence. You effectively insist that anecdotal evidence proves nothing unless it's yours.

- Challenged on this, you insist I'm telling Horde players how they feel, which is pure nonsense.


As to the state of the story, our exchange can be boiled down to:

- You state that Horde players will be upset if Alliance players have a story at Horde's expense.

- I point out that Teldrassil and many other stories have been just that for Alliance, a Horde story at Alliance's expense.

- You attempt to deflect and insist that it's different... somehow.

I want the Alliance to get some form of revenge/reparations for the Horde's actions. "Pretend nothing happened, sit back and paint a fresh target on our backs" has been a shitty story every single time we've been forced to choke on it. It could easily be done without the Horde losing a damn thing in game, nor do I want to attack Horde players for the writers' shitshow.

Apparently, you have no problem with the status quo, i.e. Horde stories at Alliance expense, but are terribly upset at the idea of Alliance stories at Horde expense, receiving the treatment Alliance has been getting since end of Wrath. That's hypocrisy, whether you meant it or not, whether you realize it or not. As such, there's no point in continuing this.

Infracted.

The staggering irony of this statement.

[Piamonte]

as a main alliance player i say horde, but only because blizzard seems fixated in developing the story mainly for them while the alliance only reacts to what the horde does, in fact, wasnt there a comment from a dev saying that they struggle to write compelling stories for the alliance??

[Soon-TM]

as a main alliance player i say horde, but only because blizzard seems fixated in developing the story mainly for them while the alliance only reacts to what the horde does, in fact, wasnt there a comment from a dev saying that they struggle to write compelling stories for the alliance?

It must be quite difficult to write a compelling story for a bunch of goody-goody two shoes, who are portrayed as being always right and have no internal struggles worth mentioning. But that's what (most) ally players want their faction to be like, if this thread is any hint.

[bowlink]

It must be quite difficult to write a compelling story for a bunch of goody-goody two shoes, who are portrayed as being always right and have no internal struggles worth mentioning. But that's what (most) ally players want their faction to be like, if this thread is any hint.

speak for yourself. theirs plenty of alliance players who want to be painted in some darker colours. the problem blizzard never follows through with that. because they can't have the horde loose to mutch.

IMHO its a factor of they can't write a compelling story for the alliance. its a factor that they won't. because again that would go at the horde expense.