It's honestly baffling to me that Blizz still refuses to implement Housing

[nyc81991]

I agree. Blizzard messed up with Garrisons by making them be too important and not actual player housing. The result of that is them not doing anything like that again and us still not having housing.

[Relapses]

Yes? Of course they do. Blizzard obviously considers player housing, likely all the time. They designed Vanilla with that in mind (though it was cut), so what's with the buttrage? God forbid paying players ask for features?

Just stop.

And the developers also get to consider the fact that it's not a feature important enough to spend development time on. As they have proven in every single expansion and patch where it isn't announced or discussed. "Every other MMO has it," is a terrible fucking reason to add something. If it's important enough to you that the lack of the feature somehow destroys your experience, unsubscribe from the fucking game and play any of the other MMOs which proudly support non-content player housing. But don't pretend like you deserve a feature just because you pay for it. That's entitlement and it's not a good look.

[kaminaris]

And the developers also get to consider the fact that it's not a feature important enough to spend development time on. As they have proven in every single expansion and patch where it isn't announced or discussed. "Every other MMO has it," is a terrible fucking reason to add something. If it's important enough to you that the lack of the feature somehow destroys your experience, unsubscribe from the fucking game and play any of the other MMOs which proudly support non-content player housing. But don't pretend like you deserve a feature just because you pay for it. That's entitlement and it's not a good look.

Chill out dude, you are not a sole arbiter on what deserves dev time, and thing is, nobody fucking knows, not even blizzard itself cause they never asked players about it.

And the only thing we got to estimate feature is to take a look at how it goes in another MMOs.

Nuff said.

[Relapses]

Chill out dude, you are not a sole arbiter on what deserves dev time, and thing is, nobody fucking knows, not even blizzard itself cause they never asked players about it.

And the only thing we got to estimate feature is to take a look at how it goes in another MMOs.

Nuff said.

I never pretended I was but the fact that we've gone 15 years without legitimate PH seems to indicate, to me, that it's simply not a feature that they're willing to implement at this point in time. The list of things Blizzard needs to fix in WoW is so endless that player housing ends up getting pushed down around adding a dance studio.

It gets tiring to see the bimonthly thread that makes the incredibly studious observation that there exist some people for whom this feature is more important (than others) and therefore Blizzard must stop what they're doing immediately to add it to the game or face near certain doom.

[psyquest]

I work in software development, although with big systems and banking. The concept is the same as for game dev, any feature actually cost money. It is not neutral. If you have one guy writting code for one small thing and it took that guy 1 day, you have behind it the cost of QA and the rest and it adds up quickly.

For any feature to be considered in the game, they need to take into account their roadmap because believe it or not, there is one for getting patches and xpacs out.

If one feature is sized and take up time in your roadmap, you end up sometimes having to arbiter: either delay the release to add the feature or remove another feature you wanted to implement (or work more hours or get extra people to train and work on it).

Prioritisation is key. So basically player housing stand against many other more important game systems and features. I will not hold my breath about it, it is costly and cosmetic and do not have a massive player engagement. At least for the list of feature for the next xpac and the lack of annoucement, wont happen soon.

[azka]

I lol'd at "baffling".

What is this? Buzzfeed?

[kaminaris]

I never pretended I was but the fact that we've gone 15 years without legitimate PH seems to indicate, to me, that it's simply not a feature that they're willing to implement at this point in time. The list of things Blizzard needs to fix in WoW is so endless that player housing ends up getting pushed down around adding a dance studio.

It gets tiring to see the bimonthly thread that makes the incredibly studious observation that there exist some people for whom this feature is more important (than others) and therefore Blizzard must stop what they're doing immediately to add it to the game or face near certain doom.

There is nearly nothing that needs fixing, aside from real bugs. It just people, not liking features.
And this is not going to end well if they never listen to players.

So they might as well give it a shot to try implementing real housing. Garrison was prime example how bad miscommunication between players and blizzard is.

[azka]

I work in software development, although with big systems and banking. The concept is the same as for game dev, any feature actually cost money. It is not neutral. If you have one guy writting code for one small thing and it took that guy 1 day, you have behind it the cost of QA and the rest and it adds up quickly.

For any feature to be considered in the game, they need to take into account their roadmap because believe it or not, there is one for getting patches and xpacs out.

If one feature is sized and take up time in your roadmap, you end up sometimes having to arbiter: either delay the release to add the feature or remove another feature you wanted to implement (or work more hours or get extra people to train and work on it).

Prioritisation is key. So basically player housing stand against many other more important game systems and features. I will not hold my breath about it, it is costly and cosmetic and do not have a massive player engagement. At least for the list of feature for the next xpac and the lack of annoucement, wont happen soon.

Software developer here, too (I worked on some small indie mobile games), and as much as I agree with you and think that housing would be too big and too risky to implement. I'll take it 100% over Island Expeditions, Warfronts, and many other systems they have implemented in the past.

[kaminaris]

Prioritisation is key. So basically player housing stand against many other more important game systems and features. I will not hold my breath about it, it is costly and cosmetic and do not have a massive player engagement. At least for the list of feature for the next xpac and the lack of annoucement, wont happen soon.

And the bolded part is where you are wrong, simply because you don't have a clue how will it affect player engagement. Not even blizzard knows it cause they never ask players directly, instead they are using a fucking magic 8 ball. (And no, no amount of statistics, metrics in game will tell them how many players would want player housing)

[Relapses]

There is nearly nothing that needs fixing, aside from real bugs. It just people, not liking features.
And this is not going to end well if they never listen to players.

That's a gross oversimplification and you know it.

So they might as well give it a shot to try implementing real housing. Garrison was prime example how bad miscommunication between players and blizzard is.

"Real" housing, huh? As if there's one single universal system that all players would agree constitutes "real" housing. The fact is that Garrisons gave us a clear example as to why player housing is generally not a good idea in a game like WoW: If given the opportunity, players never leave their safe zones.

[kaminaris]

That's a gross oversimplification and you know it.

Even if it would super detailed, result is still the same, so far nobody has ever reached a conclusion what needs to be done to make game better, the only one who can is blizzard but to do so they would need to collect real data ie. opinions.

"Real" housing, huh? As if there's one single universal system that all players would agree constitutes "real" housing. The fact is that Garrisons gave us a clear example as to why player housing is generally not a good idea in a game like WoW: If given the opportunity, players never leave their safe zones.

You can reach the same conclusion looking at this from various angles = garrison was way too overpowered and had very little customization.
It doesn't take genius to figure out potential problems of their garrison system but blizz just didn't care.

And again, to check what player vision is most popular, guess who would need to do what?

[Relapses]

Even if it would super detailed, result is still the same, so far nobody has ever reached a conclusion what needs to be done to make game better, the only one who can is blizzard but to do so they would need to collect real data ie. opinions.

Opinions that never agree on anything. You ask two WoW players how to fix WoW and you get two entirely different answers. WoW is a game that appeals to such a broad audience that there's no easy way to "fix" any aspect of it without inadvertently alienating some group of players. Blizzard has, as far as I can tell, used a fairly liberal approach to change in that they do not make drastic changes that fundamentally alter the way the game plays. SL represents the largest departure from the status quo that we've seen since Legion so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. That said, there's no easy answer to how to "fix" the game and yet again player housing -- as much as it might be a hot button issue for a demographic of players (which is over-represented on forums like this) -- still has a very niche appeal.

You can reach the same conclusion looking at this from various angles = garrison was way too overpowered and had very little customization.
It doesn't take genius to figure out potential problems of their garrison system but blizz just didn't care.

And again, to check what player vision is most popular, guess who would need to do what?

I don't necessarily agree that "Blizz didn't care" when they designed Garrisons. I think the exact opposite is true. They cared quite a bit which is why it became such a central focus for WoD. One could argue that a less content-focused version of player housing would be just as beneficial but the problem is that Blizzard doesn't seem to like to design content "just because." Any version of player housing that WoW includes will have some form of content loop included with it and will have all the intrinsic issues that Garrisons carried with it. Player housing in WoW represents a square peg/round hole type issue for Blizzard's developers. It simply does not have an easy-to-find place in this game and Blizzard isn't about to devote development time to figuring out a way to "make it work" since the number of players who'd find this content meaningful is far, far less than the number of players who would much prefer Blizzard focusing that energy on figuring out ways to make the game better in general.

Now, I'll throw you a bone: I don't see player housing as being completely off the table forever. It's just that BfA moving into SL is the wrong time to have such a discussion. If Blizzard fixes WoW's bigger-picture issues in SL there's a possibility that we could see the system as soon as 10.0.

[therealstegblob]

And the developers also get to consider the fact that it's not a feature important enough to spend development time on. As they have proven in every single expansion and patch where it isn't announced or discussed. "Every other MMO has it," is a terrible fucking reason to add something. If it's important enough to you that the lack of the feature somehow destroys your experience, unsubscribe from the fucking game and play any of the other MMOs which proudly support non-content player housing. But don't pretend like you deserve a feature just because you pay for it. That's entitlement and it's not a good look.

I don’t even want or care about player housing but you’re making an embarrassment of yourself over it, lol.

[Relapses]

I don’t even want or care about player housing but you’re making an embarrassment of yourself over it, lol.

TIL expressing my opinion and supporting it with the reasons I feel the way I do is "making an embarrassment of myself."

News flash: You're the one who tried to diminish my perspective with garbage logic. Grow up.

[Silakka]

We had garrisons, then you cried that cities were empty. What do you think will happen when they give garrisons again? Sorry housing.

[kaminaris]

Opinions that never agree on anything. You ask two WoW players how to fix WoW and you get two entirely different answers. WoW is a game that appeals to such a broad audience that there's no easy way to "fix" any aspect of it without inadvertently alienating some group of players. Blizzard has, as far as I can tell, used a fairly liberal approach to change in that they do not make drastic changes that fundamentally alter the way the game plays. SL represents the largest departure from the status quo that we've seen since Legion so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. That said, there's no easy answer to how to "fix" the game and yet again player housing -- as much as it might be a hot button issue for a demographic of players (which is over-represented on forums like this) -- still has a very niche appeal.

And we won't ever know what majority thinks, even blizzard doesn't cause they are too scared to send surveys.
Plus I don't really see how shadowlands is that different from at least BfA. It looks very similar so far. More rental power, no permanent systems.
And you don't know if it's niche appeal.

I don't necessarily agree that "Blizz didn't care" when they designed Garrisons. I think the exact opposite is true. They cared quite a bit which is why it became such a central focus for WoD. One could argue that a less content-focused version of player housing would be just as beneficial but the problem is that Blizzard doesn't seem to like to design content "just because." Any version of player housing that WoW includes will have some form of content loop included with it and will have all the intrinsic issues that Garrisons carried with it. Player housing in WoW represents a square peg/round hole type issue for Blizzard's developers. It simply does not have an easy-to-find place in this game and Blizzard isn't about to devote development time to figuring out a way to "make it work" since the number of players who'd find this content meaningful is far, far less than the number of players who would much prefer Blizzard focusing that energy on figuring out ways to make the game better in general.

Now, I'll throw you a bone: I don't see player housing as being completely off the table forever. It's just that BfA moving into SL is the wrong time to have such a discussion. If Blizzard fixes WoW's bigger-picture issues in SL there's a possibility that we could see the system as soon as 10.0.

Blizzard cares sometimes too much, and sometimes too little. One thing is certain, they should start talking with players. And focus less on "the team wants", beacuse its ultimately game made for players, not for their team. UNLESS it is really for the their team then they should just say so.

And this is how me, being a developer sees a super fatal flaw in their workflow. They focus on too many things at once trying to finish as many new stuff as possible.

Perfect workflow is like this:
0.1. Introduce feature A - very rough around the edges
0.1.5. Improve feature A a little, introduce feature B - rough around the edges
0.2. Improve feature A and B
0.2.5 - Introduce feature C, improve feature A
0.3 - improve A,B,C
1.0 - introduce next iteration of Feature A and maybe B if they have time, if not, just try to improve it A LITTLE
1.1. Introduce new feature D, improve a little (if there is anything to improve) A, B, C

And next thing you know, based on collected feedback, you have very strong 3 features and one new

Instead blizz works like this

0.1. Introduce feature A, B, C "polished" to their vision based on no feedback
0.1.5. Improve feature A a little, Improve feature B - based on guesswork
0.2. Improve feature A, B, C
0.2.5 - Introduce feature D, Improve A, C - based on guesswork
0.3 - Introduce feature E
1.0 - DROP features A and B, E, overiterate feature C turning it into F
1.1. Improve feature E and F based on guesswork

(a,b,c - azerite, warfronts, islands)
(d - new zones)
(e - horrific visions)
(f - thorgast)

This way, we will be always having shit.

[Kallisto]

Player housing is an extreme introverted activity that is commonly championed by internet forums that are almost exclusively filled with introverts. It is NOT something that should be implemented because they've already sacrificed load of extroverted activity to cater to introverts as it is. They need to move drastically in the opposite direction. This is fundamentally BAD game design for the current state of wow that caters to people that hate talking to anyone.

Oh look another introverts are evil and destroying everything post by Kokolums

[Relapses]

And we won't ever know what majority thinks, even blizzard doesn't cause they are too scared to send surveys.
Plus I don't really see how shadowlands is that different from at least BfA. It looks very similar so far. More rental power, no permanent systems.
And you don't know if it's niche appeal.

Blizzard isn't afraid of surveys. They don't need surveys to understand what does or doesn't work for the game. Blizzard likely has administrative tools which allow them to see which features players do and do not interact with and how many players routinely do certain activities. (Ie, "x% of people engage in World Quests for y number of days/weeks.") This engagement data is why WoW often seems to be designed by bean counters who stare at spreadsheets all day. The developers are quite literally figuring out ways to maximize engagement while simultaneously stopping the inevitable ebb and flow of players who quit/return for patches. (In a subscription model, this is a concept called churn.) Whether this is a good or a bad thing is certainly up for debate and many, many players have equivocally expressed distaste with this design approach. I don't like it but at this point it's a necessary evil. The fundamental issue I see with reversing or altering this philosophy is that because of the game's massive appeal, it's impossible for Blizzard to narrow WoW's broader scope without (perhaps irreversibly) alienating certain demographics of players. (WoD is a perfect example of swinging the pendulum too far in the direction of raiding.)

Call me a glutton for punishment or Blizzdrone if you'd like but if the choice is between a game with far fewer players or a game with a bunch of systems designed to make me stay subbed, I personally would choose the latter. Because I still like the game and I don't want it to die. Further, while you're correct that I do not "know" whether player housing's appeal is niche, I do not think it's an unfair statement to say that if given the choice between a better overall game and player housing, most players would choose the former to the latter.

Blizzard cares sometimes too much, and sometimes too little. One thing is certain, they should start talking with players. And focus less on "the team wants", beacuse its ultimately game made for players, not for their team. UNLESS it is really for the their team then they should just say so.

And this is how me, being a developer sees a super fatal flaw in their workflow. They focus on too many things at once trying to finish as many new stuff as possible.

Perfect workflow is like this:
0.1. Introduce feature A - very rough around the edges
0.1.5. Improve feature A a little, introduce feature B - rough around the edges
0.2. Improve feature A and B
0.2.5 - Introduce feature C, improve feature A
0.3 - improve A,B,C
1.0 - introduce next iteration of Feature A and maybe B if they have time, if not, just try to improve it A LITTLE
1.1. Introduce new feature D, improve a little (if there is anything to improve) A, B, C

And next thing you know, based on collected feedback, you have very strong 3 features and one new

Instead blizz works like this

0.1. Introduce feature A, B, C "polished" to their vision based on no feedback
0.1.5. Improve feature A a little, Improve feature B - based on guesswork
0.2. Improve feature A, B, C
0.2.5 - Introduce feature D, Improve A, C - based on guesswork
0.3 - Introduce feature E
1.0 - DROP features A and B, E, overiterate feature C turning it into F
1.1. Improve feature E and F based on guesswork

(a,b,c - azerite, warfronts, islands)
(d - new zones)
(e - horrific visions)
(f - thorgast)

This way, we will be always having shit.

This sounds like game design by democracy with extra steps.

No thanks.

[Kallisto]

Opinions that never agree on anything. You ask two WoW players how to fix WoW and you get two entirely different answers. WoW is a game that appeals to such a broad audience that there's no easy way to "fix" any aspect of it without inadvertently alienating some group of players. Blizzard has, as far as I can tell, used a fairly liberal approach to change in that they do not make drastic changes that fundamentally alter the way the game plays. SL represents the largest departure from the status quo that we've seen since Legion so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. That said, there's no easy answer to how to "fix" the game and yet again player housing -- as much as it might be a hot button issue for a demographic of players (which is over-represented on forums like this) -- still has a very niche appeal.



I don't necessarily agree that "Blizz didn't care" when they designed Garrisons. I think the exact opposite is true. They cared quite a bit which is why it became such a central focus for WoD. One could argue that a less content-focused version of player housing would be just as beneficial but the problem is that Blizzard doesn't seem to like to design content "just because." Any version of player housing that WoW includes will have some form of content loop included with it and will have all the intrinsic issues that Garrisons carried with it. Player housing in WoW represents a square peg/round hole type issue for Blizzard's developers. It simply does not have an easy-to-find place in this game and Blizzard isn't about to devote development time to figuring out a way to "make it work" since the number of players who'd find this content meaningful is far, far less than the number of players who would much prefer Blizzard focusing that energy on figuring out ways to make the game better in general.

Now, I'll throw you a bone: I don't see player housing as being completely off the table forever. It's just that BfA moving into SL is the wrong time to have such a discussion. If Blizzard fixes WoW's bigger-picture issues in SL there's a possibility that we could see the system as soon as 10.0.

I think the reason behind blizzard not doing things just because comes down to how they view player interaction in the game. Only niche group of players do things "just because.". It seems to be that feedbackat least on mmo champion is that if there's no power gain people don't want to do it (outside of small groups.), but if there is a power gain no matter how minute it might be, people act as if it is forced.

[Amenophis]

And the developers also get to consider the fact that it's not a feature important enough to spend development time on. As they have proven in every single expansion and patch where it isn't announced or discussed. "Every other MMO has it," is a terrible fucking reason to add something. If it's important enough to you that the lack of the feature somehow destroys your experience, unsubscribe from the fucking game and play any of the other MMOs which proudly support non-content player housing. But don't pretend like you deserve a feature just because you pay for it. That's entitlement and it's not a good look.

With your logic, WoW should not have transmogging + pet battles + races like pandaren and vulpera. Those were asked by the players and implemented in the game.

Why dont you take your aggressive attitute and bother soomeone else like your real life entourage? Because I have not paid here to get bothered with your ultra-negative and aggressive attitude. You should be cut out with the new expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

I work in software development, although with big systems and banking. The concept is the same as for game dev, any feature actually cost money. It is not neutral. If you have one guy writting code for one small thing and it took that guy 1 day, you have behind it the cost of QA and the rest and it adds up quickly.

For any feature to be considered in the game, they need to take into account their roadmap because believe it or not, there is one for getting patches and xpacs out.

If one feature is sized and take up time in your roadmap, you end up sometimes having to arbiter: either delay the release to add the feature or remove another feature you wanted to implement (or work more hours or get extra people to train and work on it).

Prioritisation is key. So basically player housing stand against many other more important game systems and features. I will not hold my breath about it, it is costly and cosmetic and do not have a massive player engagement. At least for the list of feature for the next xpac and the lack of annoucement, wont happen soon.

This is one of the best explanations on the subject imo.

While I strongly support housing in WoW, I also understand to some degree the way the market and the company works. The devs and the decision makers have to make a choice with what they have as resources.

I just hope that our vocalization of the issue will get their attention soon enough (after 15 years).