Should bailing on a M+ group be penalized?

[shyguybman]

All groups are assumed to be push groups unless otherwise indicated. This is due to the primary purpose of M+ being to push the key.

Some groups do go the extra step to signify push, but I find that most often means the group is inexperienced, ironically.

Of course the objective is always to time the key unless specified (other than completion groups which aren't common) but it sounds like there are people in here that would leave with 1 boss left if they realized they weren't going to time the key.

[123youshowme]

Jesus Christ, read the fucking post. If you're in the occasional shit group, you can leave with no penalty. If you're ALWAYS in shit groups, maybe it's you. or maybe you should find a guild or community who's up to your standards.

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They are. The get less/no loot and the key gets downgraded. Try thinking before you post next time.

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If you're an asshole, yes. Now... do you have a better suggestion or are you just whining?

Pass.
You can keep your penalty to yourself.
Current system works fine, blizzard doesn't have to cave to the whims of spiteful shitters.
Infracted;

[Tiwack]

The best solution is to get rid of the key downgrade system when a run fails tbh.
Sure, it would make it easier to push even higher for the top end players but.. does that really matter so much? Imo its even more interesting to see what players can accomplish with enough tries as opposed to how far players can get on "one try".

I concur. Actually downgrading a key should be a lot more effortless.

[123youshowme]

I concur. Actually downgrading a key should be a lot more effortless.

yeah they should go back to depleted keys pre change 100%
just for lads like you

[Tiwack]

"Should being a group that people feel the need to bail from be penalized?" Should be the proper question.

A bit of a mouthful but you're not wrong.

[SkagenRora]

Jesus Christ, read the fucking post. If you're in the occasional shit group, you can leave with no penalty. If you're ALWAYS in shit groups, maybe it's you. or maybe you should find a guild or community who's up to your standards.

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They are. The get less/no loot and the key gets downgraded. Try thinking before you post next time.

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If you're an asshole, yes. Now... do you have a better suggestion or are you just whining?

I rarely do, and it sometimes (if not always) turns into a jumbled mess that people usally have trouble understanding

[dacoolist]

M+ at keys 1-9 and of course on easy weeks even 10-14 aren't bad, it's the rough affix weeks, and the weeks where you get some one with a stick up their ass

Be honest, how many damn times have you all REALLY had an issue with someone leaving: Like actual even LAST xpac (I ran about idk 500 last xpac and about 300 this xpac so far) so out of 800+++ mythic+ keys, I've only had maybe 10-20 with someone who left.. and those people are absolute wankers

[ID811717]

I made in my posting pretty clear that I don't like the Diablo3 system of fishing. Doing a high weekly with the goal to get 5-keys next week to fish from is nothing else.

This kind of fishing/difficulty-softening behaviour is hard punished in rated pvp, hard punished in competitive raiding and is only tolerated in M+ because its a new system and it got zero changes from its introduction.

I understand where you come from, just saying that the game this system comes from suffers a lot from this "fishing" culture and in WoW we have much stricter rules for skill based challenges.

I would be not shocked if blizzard crowns M+ to the same tier as raiding and pvp is in the future, with FoS and Mount/Mog benefits, that it will get the same restrictive system with punishments for avoiding the target difficulty.

Fishing is nothing else, but to cheese the intended difficulty. (CHEATING)

M+ right now with a premade group is like a raidgroup hoping for a weekly RNG spawn of 8/8 freehold-bosses to get CE. If you want true ingame R.IO or the benefits of raiding/arena for M+, you might think about this comparison and why the current iteration does not fit inside the rules.

There are two ways "fishing" can be understood in the context of our discussion about M+.
1. Players are fishing for good pug groups, and prematurely quit if they see their pug group might deplete the key. I think we agree this is a bad sportsmanship, outside of extreme cases where the pug group is really bad.
2. Players are fishing for good keys. This is not really a thing. Certain dungeon&affix combinations are overtuned and players will obviously avoid them if possible. And it does not affect the overall seasonal score of players who are invested into pushing M+. They will usually end a season with every dungeon timed at +X (whatever is the key level X you are progressing), likely with ML,KR,Siege,WM timed at one key level lower, and possibly with AD,FH,TD timed at one key level higher. The only way one can be condescending about this is that Blizzard does not bother to balance out the M+ system (or even fix the countless well known and widely reported M+ bugs), but it's also understandable they just don't want to put work into something that is visible and benefits probably like 0.01% of the playerbase.

Some fun statistics about tuning (I picked Shrine and Temple at random, representing dungeons that are not considered the easiest or the hardest):
- KR was timed 0 times at +25, 1 time at +24, 33 times at +23, and 158 times at +22.
- Shrine was timed 1 time at +25, 37 times at +24, and 161 times at +23.
- Temple was timed 3 times at +25, 64 times at +24, and 235 times at +23.
- Freehold was timed 13 times at +25, 69 times at +24, and 307 times at +23.

I also don't see why doing a weekly key is any form of "fishing". Is that because some players manage to get into weekly runs at key levels far above what they are capable of timing? (This is rare, need good friends). It does not affect what key levels they will be able to time down the line, and that is the only thing that matters...

[dacoolist]

There are two ways "fishing" can be understood in the context of our discussion about M+.
1. Players are fishing for good pug groups, and prematurely quit if they see their pug group might deplete the key. I think we agree this is a bad sportsmanship, outside of extreme cases where the pug group is really bad.
2. Players are fishing for good keys. This is not really a thing. Certain dungeon&affix combinations are overtuned and players will obviously avoid them if possible. And it does not affect the overall seasonal score of players who are invested into pushing M+. They will usually end a season with every dungeon timed at +X (whatever is the key level X you are progressing), likely with ML,KR,Siege,WM timed at one key level lower, and possibly with AD,FH,TD timed at one key level higher. The only way one can be condescending about this is that Blizzard does not bother to balance out the M+ system (or even fix the countless well known and widely reported M+ bugs), but it's also understandable they just don't want to put work into something that is visible and benefits probably like 0.01% of the playerbase.

Some fun statistics about tuning (I picked Shrine and Temple at random, representing dungeons that are not considered the easiest or the hardest):
- KR was timed 0 times at +25, 1 time at +24, 33 times at +23, and 158 times at +22.
- Shrine was timed 1 time at +25, 37 times at +24, and 161 times at +23.
- Temple was timed 3 times at +25, 64 times at +24, and 235 times at +23.
- Freehold was timed 13 times at +25, 69 times at +24, and 307 times at +23.

Some of those boss's are incredible at high keys - being a garbage can like myself - even doing the 15's in time the easiest week in the entire world - I still barely did them on time, some keys I literally had 1 SECOND left. People doing these keys at 25 IN TIME are incredible and not only that are LUCKY, they take risks because the deal is - and again - at those high of keys.. a boss can literally hit you with his pinky toe and INSTANTLY kill you through a cooldown

[ID811717]

Not at all. It’s very common and easy to find a guild which focus on m+ runs and then get to know the players in the guild. Most likely you’re going to like them and if not you can just go and find another guild. It’s not hard work at all and a lot of people use this simple method to find people they can play with more regularly and trust. It’s definitely not just for finding high end mythic raiding guilds anymore.

Extra: and now it doesn’t even have to be a guild anymore. With the new “community feature” you can find one that focus on m+. It’s by far the best way to find good people to play with.

Where/how do you find such guilds? I searched for M+ flavored guilds in the past. I concluded that guilds are meant for raiding, and do not mesh good with people who focus on M+. I would say it's easy to find a community guild that will help you to learn the basics and work towards doing a weekly +10 run every week. I think it's still viable to find a guild that shares your interest to progress in keys between +10 and +15. Anything higher than +15 - and you're out of luck. It forces you to build your friend list and explore the communities to progress further (discord servers, or in-game communities).

My personal experience is also that guilds that have the community supporting keys up to +15 are generally dragging your down if you want to progress. There will always be someone who is under-performing, but gets an invite to avoid awkward situations. You will often achieve better results by pugging in that bracker (at the expense of having to deal with a lot of immature players... but the higher you go in pugs, the better social environment you get).

[Kaver]

Where/how do you find such guilds? I searched for M+ flavored guilds in the past. I concluded that guilds are meant for raiding, and do not mesh good with people who focus on M+. I would say it's easy to find a community guild that will help you to learn the basics and work towards doing a weekly +10 run every week. I think it's still viable to find a guild that shares your interest to progress in keys between +10 and +15. Anything higher than +15 - and you're out of luck. It forces you to build your friend list and explore the communities to progress further (discord servers, or in-game communities).

My personal experience is also that guilds that have the community supporting keys up to +15 are generally dragging your down if you want to progress. There will always be someone who is under-performing, but gets an invite to avoid awkward situations. You will often achieve better results by pugging in that bracker (at the expense of having to deal with a lot of immature players... but the higher you go in pugs, the better social environment you get).

I had an easy time finding a guild that do both mythic raiding and push +20 keys. It’s pretty simple. Of course you have to be a baseline good player otherwise people will not want to play with you. I know it might sound harsh but that’s how I see it at least.

[ID811717]

I had an easy time finding a guild that do both mythic raiding and push +20 keys. It’s pretty simple. Of course you have to be a baseline good player otherwise people will not want to play with you. I know it might sound harsh but that’s how I see it at least.

On the high end, I was looking for an EU guild at the end of Legion when I was around world rank 500-1000 in M+. So I was checking how many similarly (or higher) ranked players were in each guild. Most guilds had 1-2 such players. Only a few guilds had 4-5 and it was clear they had a premade group (so the likelihood is - strangers are not welcome). And then there was Method and a couple of other very hardcore raiding guilds with a critical mass of high ranked players (and those are players way-way above my skill level).

I have not paid much attention to this in BfA though. I suppose things might have changed a bit. Legion had very pug-friendly M+. BfA must have driven people into more isolated communities, away from pugs. It certainly has driven me into mostly premade groups, even though I am still very positive about pugging keys.

[Accendor]

Not at all. It’s very common and easy to find a guild which focus on m+ runs and then get to know the players in the guild. Most likely you’re going to like them and if not you can just go and find another guild. It’s not hard work at all and a lot of people use this simple method to find people they can play with more regularly and trust. It’s definitely not just for finding high end mythic raiding guilds anymore.

Extra: and now it doesn’t even have to be a guild anymore. With the new “community feature” you can find one that focus on m+. It’s by far the best way to find good people to play with.

Interesting, I have a complete different way of looking for people to play with. The whole process to apply for a guild is way to bothersome for me if I decide to leave it again either way, because I don't like the people there.

Regarding communities: I actually thought this was a dead feature. I in quite a lot of them actually and like the idea, but literally all of them are dead, even when there is the maximum number of people in them and many are online. Its just not being used (at least the ones I am in).

[melodramocracy]

M+ at keys 1-9 and of course on easy weeks even 10-14 aren't bad, it's the rough affix weeks, and the weeks where you get some one with a stick up their ass

Be honest, how many damn times have you all REALLY had an issue with someone leaving: Like actual even LAST xpac (I ran about idk 500 last xpac and about 300 this xpac so far) so out of 800+++ mythic+ keys, I've only had maybe 10-20 with someone who left.. and those people are absolute wankers

Just yesterday actually. Tank left because one pull went poorly about 1/2 way through the dungeon, and we were on time to clear with plenty to spare.

And that's the whole point here, one shitbag can easily ruin the time investment for everyone else.

[Alroxas]

The best solution is to get rid of the key downgrade system when a run fails tbh.

No this promotes negative gameplay. If there was no penalty for failing a key (aka no downgrade in place), then players would be encouraged to reset often and frequently.

Oh, we're not going to make the timer, let's reset.
Oh, DPS died on last pull, let's reset.
Oh, we're 5s behind on the first boss (DPS got targeted by boss ability so less DPS uptime to avoid 1-shot), let's reset.

That's not going to be healthy for the M+ game.

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If I get deserter for leaving a battleground before its over, why dont I get that for leaving a M+.

BGs use a queue system. You don't necessarily get to pick the team you're on. M+ is premade activity. Premade activities don't have penalties because players are choosing who to fill in the slots. Therefore the responsibility is on the group leader for picking the "right" people.

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If I were designing the system it would not be a straight penalty system but something like a point system (a little like the infractions here).

Points are made up here just for illustration:

Your system misses the point. All it would do is promote even more negative gameplay. For instance, a tank could purposely not tank just stand over at the start of the dungeon running around in small circles. Or alternatively the tank could continue to pull large packs that will 100% wipe the group over and over again. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the tank, a DPS could "accidentally" pull extra packs causing a wipe over and over again.

This is the problem with punishment systems that folks keep bringing up in M+. To avoid the punishment, players will just exhibit negative behavior until someone else leaves and incurs the punishment instead of just leaving.


Instead of building systems that punish, you should be looking at WHY someone is leaving. Address the root issue instead of the symptoms. At the very root, the problem for most PuG M+ groups is where goals and expectations were not clearly communicated and agreed upon prior to starting a run.

[swatsonqt]

You queue up for BGs with the pre determined goal to win but there is a penalty for leaving it.

because you are randomly put together and dont choose your mates for the rnd bg.
It makes sense to give a penality in that environment because you cant choose your mates. However in m+ you can.

[Xath]

No this promotes negative gameplay. If there was no penalty for failing a key (aka no downgrade in place), then players would be encouraged to reset often and frequently.

Oh, we're not going to make the timer, let's reset.
Oh, DPS died on last pull, let's reset.
Oh, we're 5s behind on the first boss (DPS got targeted by boss ability so less DPS uptime to avoid 1-shot), let's reset.

That's not going to be healthy for the M+ game.

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BGs use a queue system. You don't necessarily get to pick the team you're on. M+ is premade activity. Premade activities don't have penalties because players are choosing who to fill in the slots. Therefore the responsibility is on the group leader for picking the "right" people.

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Your system misses the point. All it would do is promote even more negative gameplay. For instance, a tank could purposely not tank just stand over at the start of the dungeon running around in small circles. Or alternatively the tank could continue to pull large packs that will 100% wipe the group over and over again. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the tank, a DPS could "accidentally" pull extra packs causing a wipe over and over again.

This is the problem with punishment systems that folks keep bringing up in M+. To avoid the punishment, players will just exhibit negative behavior until someone else leaves and incurs the punishment instead of just leaving.


Instead of building systems that punish, you should be looking at WHY someone is leaving. Address the root issue instead of the symptoms. At the very root, the problem for most PuG M+ groups is where goals and expectations were not clearly communicated and agreed upon prior to starting a run.

I'd do it a different way getting rid of the key downgrade system would only take effect if you finished the dungeon. If someone is trying for their 15 achieve and the run is obviously scrapped they don't have much incentive to continue to get a different 14 key for example same for 10s.

[ID811717]

No this promotes negative gameplay. If there was no penalty for failing a key (aka no downgrade in place), then players would be encouraged to reset often and frequently.

Oh, we're not going to make the timer, let's reset.
Oh, DPS died on last pull, let's reset.
Oh, we're 5s behind on the first boss (DPS got targeted by boss ability so less DPS uptime to avoid 1-shot), let's reset.

That's not going to be healthy for the M+ game.

Just roll back to the initial M+ system. The penalty was: you got no loot for the run if you used a "depleted" key to start it.

[Aphrel]

No this promotes negative gameplay. If there was no penalty for failing a key (aka no downgrade in place), then players would be encouraged to reset often and frequently.

Oh, we're not going to make the timer, let's reset.
Oh, DPS died on last pull, let's reset.
Oh, we're 5s behind on the first boss (DPS got targeted by boss ability so less DPS uptime to avoid 1-shot), let's reset.

That's not going to be healthy for the M+ game.

That seems really excessive behaviour, i don't think that would be the norm at all. Nor do i see it as a negative behaviour, its litterary how raid progress works, or how challengemode was done.

But if the top end 0.01% wanna do that, im fine with it. Ill be watching with joy to see just how tupidly big pulls ppl can accomplish with enough tries and beat the timers in higher and higher runs. It will be a diffrent kind of ranking for sure, but it will be a ranking competition none the less.
In this regard it will be more similar to how cahllengemodes and raiding looks. Where after a large amout of tries teh group/raid overcomes teh encounter. Nailing it to the smallest detail, pushing it to the limit.

On the + side, your pugging community will never need suffer from selfish retards.

[ID811717]

But if the top end 0.01% wanna do that, im fine with it. Ill be watching with joy to see just how tupidly big pulls ppl can accomplish with enough tries and beat the timers in higher and higher runs. It will be a diffrent kind of ranking for sure, but it will be a ranking competition none the less.
In this regard it will be more similar to how cahllengemodes and raiding looks. Where after a large amout of tries teh group/raid overcomes teh encounter. Nailing it to the smallest detail, pushing it to the limit.

You can still watch some of it on YouTube. WF CoS+26 after many failed attempts and resets, less than a year from Legion release (when pushing M+ keys was not mainstream yet): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3hToO16FTE