About blood magic and raising the dead.

[Aucald]

we havent seen void undead nor arcane undead, those are people using death magic or people creating golems.

The skeletons burning with shadow/void energies around Shadowmoon Valley on AU Draenor as well as Meryl Winterstorm and the ghosts of Farondis' people beg to differ.

[Piamonte]

The skeletons burning with shadow/void energies around Shadowmoon Valley on AU Draenor as well as Meryl Winterstorm and the ghosts of Farondis' people beg to differ.

"they burn with shadow/void energies" do you even know if those are really void energies?? and if they are, are you certain that thats what resurrected the skeletons? and finally, do you even know if those skeletons have souls or are just like the undead raised by blod magic that we just spoke about??.

Could you tell me specifically in what way meryl winterstorm used another type of magic to raise the undead?? seriusly i dont know every single character´s story.

the ghosts of farondis are cursed spirits, they are not the same as undead and you know it.

[Aucald]

"they burn with shadow/void energies" do you even know if those are really void energies?? and if they are, are you certain that thats what resurrected the skeletons? and finally, do you even know if those skeletons have souls or are just like the undead raised by blod magic that we just spoke about??.

The energies that Ner'zhul uses on AU Draenor are linked to the "Dark Star," what we now know was the Void-enshrouded Naaru K'ara (which is revived and returned to a Light state by AU Velen's sacrifice at Karabor). The Shadowmoon Grounds in western SMV are rife with Shadow/Void energies derived from the Dark Star - and as depicted in both the quest chains associated with the area and in the dungeon where you fight Ner'zhul they are crawling with Void-suffused undead skeletons, ghosts, and so forth. So you have two primary suppositions to draw from: A.) the Void energies raised the bones of the dead as a side-effect of the environment, or B.) the Shadowmoon acolytes are using the Void energies to raise the dead as servants, guardians, and sentries. Either way you have the Void energies raising the dead as undead beings.

Could you tell me specifically in what way meryl winterstorm used another type of magic to raise the undead?? seriusly i dont know every single character´s story.

Meryl Winterstorm used his own Arcane magic to "save" himself from death during the Troll Wars, with the side-effect of making himself a unique form of undead sustained by Arcane power. These events are told in "The First Guardian" comic series, as Winterstorm is one the backers and instructors of Alodi, who goes on to become the first of the Guardians.

the ghosts of farondis are cursed spirits, they are not the same as undead and you know it.

Ghosts and revenants are non-corporeal undead, so they definitely qualify as undead beings - the Scourge made use of many incorporeal beings such as Banshees, Val'kyr, Wraithes, and Shades. In the case of Farondis, you have one where Azshara's Arcane mastery is used to turn Farondis' people into undead ghosts en masse.

[Piamonte]

The energies that Ner'zhul uses on AU Draenor are linked to the "Dark Star," what we now know was the Void-enshrouded Naaru K'ara (which is revived and returned to a Light state by AU Velen's sacrifice at Karabor). The Shadowmoon Grounds in western SMV are rife with Shadow/Void energies derived from the Dark Star - and as depicted in both the quest chains associated with the area and in the dungeon where you fight Ner'zhul they are crawling with Void-suffused undead skeletons, ghosts, and so forth. So you have two primary suppositions to draw from: A.) the Void energies raised the bones of the dead as a side-effect of the environment, or B.) the Shadowmoon acolytes are using the Void energies to raise the dead as servants, guardians, and sentries. Either way you have the Void energies raising the dead as undead beings.



Meryl Winterstorm used his own Arcane magic to "save" himself from death during the Troll Wars, with the side-effect of making himself a unique form of undead sustained by Arcane power. These events are told in "The First Guardian" comic series, as Winterstorm is one the backers and instructors of Alodi, who goes on to become the first of the Guardians.



Ghosts and revenants are non-corporeal undead, so they definitely qualify as undead beings - the Scourge made use of many incorporeal beings such as Banshees, Val'kyr, Wraithes, and Shades. In the case of Farondis, you have one where Azshara's Arcane mastery is used to turn Farondis' people into undead ghosts en masse.

Nerzhul is fought at the edge of reality, from wowpedia: "The Edge of Reality is a location within the Shadowlands[1] that seems to have a connection to the void..
So whatever nerzhul is doing, he is using both death and void magic.

"of making himself a unique form of undead sustained by Arcane power." Just searched Meryl´s page in wowpedia, it doesnt say how he managed to resurrect himself, but i know what the problem is: Meryl´story was written in The First Guardian, a comic that was released in 2009, that is roughly at Wotlk time, back then the lore was different, arcane, necromancy, void and fel were one and the same, but today we have chronicles that differentiates each type of magic, so saying that Meryl used arcane magic would be like saying that Kelthuzad used arcane magic to resurrect the dead when he was still part of the kirin tor.

goshh, you know what i mean when i say undead, i dont mean restless spirit, which is the case of Farondis and co, i mean someone who was killed and put back into his body. It seems the arcane (more probably the void) has the ability to prevent spirits from going to the shadowlands, that doesnt contradict the fact that necromancy is fueled by death magic.


Even if you say that these examples are ambiguous, Chronicles 1 is the modern source of lore, it takes precedence over everything else, so every single example of people creating undead is done by death magic unless explicitly said otherwise.

[huth]

Calia doesn't really contradict anything - she's a new form of undead created in a new way is all. We've seen Void undead and Arcane undead now as well, in addition to the standard formula, so precedent strongly implies there are other means of creating undead beings.

Or rather, new to us. We've seen Life-based undead already, this isn't really any worse.

Though i'm not convinced blood magic is actually a different type of magic, but rather, a different way to use the existing types.

[Razion]

Well if you had powers to make blood or muscle or meat move around, you can control a body and animate it. I think it's about as simple as that.

[Piamonte]

Or rather, new to us. We've seen Life-based undead already, this isn't really any worse.

Though i'm not convinced blood magic is actually a different type of magic, but rather, a different way to use the existing types.

if by life-based undead you mean what the botani did, you are wrong.

[Garymorilix]

Nerzhul is fought at the edge of reality, from wowpedia: "The Edge of Reality is a location within the Shadowlands[1] that seems to have a connection to the void..
So whatever nerzhul is doing, he is using both death and void magic.

"of making himself a unique form of undead sustained by Arcane power." Just searched Meryl´s page in wowpedia, it doesnt say how he managed to resurrect himself, but i know what the problem is: Meryl´story was written in The First Guardian, a comic that was released in 2009, that is roughly at Wotlk time, back then the lore was different, arcane, necromancy, void and fel were one and the same, but today we have chronicles that differentiates each type of magic, so saying that Meryl used arcane magic would be like saying that Kelthuzad used arcane magic to resurrect the dead when he was still part of the kirin tor.

goshh, you know what i mean when i say undead, i dont mean restless spirit, which is the case of Farondis and co, i mean someone who was killed and put back into his body. It seems the arcane (more probably the void) has the ability to prevent spirits from going to the shadowlands, that doesnt contradict the fact that necromancy is fueled by death magic.


Even if you say that these examples are ambiguous, Chronicles 1 is the modern source of lore, it takes precedence over everything else, so every single example of people creating undead is done by death magic unless explicitly said otherwise.

Void Elves raising whatever Void Undead being they want during the War Campaign.

Calia was raised by the Light. She's a first but even N'zoth said "the light made a pact with the enemy of all". Obviously future setup still cant be disregarded as it's in the actual game.

The Fel can raise people - look at Kael'thas.

[Piamonte]

Void Elves raising whatever Void Undead being they want during the War Campaign.

Calia was raised by the Light. She's a first but even N'zoth said "the light made a pact with the enemy of all". Obviously future setup still cant be disregarded as it's in the actual game.

The Fel can raise people - look at Kael'thas.

"during war campaign" could you be a little more specific?? if you mean the void dinosaurs, those are golems.

Calia is a plothole. No one really knows what she is, just look at every thread that have been made to discuss about her. So far she contradicts two lore sources, Chronicles and the word of a dev. Like i said before, is pointless to talk about her until we have more information.


Kaelthas never died at netherstorm, he was saved at last minute.

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Well if you had powers to make blood or muscle or meat move around, you can control a body and animate it. I think it's about as simple as that.

yeah, i suppose thats the case.

[Aucald]

Nerzhul is fought at the edge of reality, from wowpedia: "The Edge of Reality is a location within the Shadowlands[1] that seems to have a connection to the void.. So whatever nerzhul is doing, he is using both death and void magic.

Ner'zhul is, however, far from alone in making use of the Dark Star's energies - and he is the only being we encounter in the Edge of Reality. So yes, Ner'zhul may be using both Death and Void magic (his presence in the Shadowlands neither confirms nor denies this), but we *know* that Void magic and energy is certainly in place elsewhere in the Shadowmoon Grounds of SMV.

"of making himself a unique form of undead sustained by Arcane power." Just searched Meryl´s page in wowpedia, it doesnt say how he managed to resurrect himself, but i know what the problem is: Meryl´story was written in The First Guardian, a comic that was released in 2009, that is roughly at Wotlk time, back then the lore was different, arcane, necromancy, void and fel were one and the same, but today we have chronicles that differentiates each type of magic, so saying that Meryl used arcane magic would be like saying that Kelthuzad used arcane magic to resurrect the dead when he was still part of the kirin tor.

That wasn't true in 2009, either. Arcane, Necromantic, and Fel magic have been different forms of magic since way back in WC3. Of that list only Void is relatively new to the scene.

goshh, you know what i mean when i say undead, i dont mean restless spirit, which is the case of Farondis and co, i mean someone who was killed and put back into his body. It seems the arcane (more probably the void) has the ability to prevent spirits from going to the shadowlands, that doesnt contradict the fact that necromancy is fueled by death magic.

Meryl is a case of Arcane magic putting a soul back in one's body, and Farondis and his people are cases of Arcane magic actually creating free-willed non-corporeal undead beings. No one is denying Necromancy is fueled by Death magic, to my knowledge, only that Necromancy is not the only way you wind up with undeath as a result. It's probably the easiest way to do it, and the most common, but not alone.

Even if you say that these examples are ambiguous, Chronicles 1 is the modern source of lore, it takes precedence over everything else, so every single example of people creating undead is done by death magic unless explicitly said otherwise.

That's not how canon works. Where the "Chronicle" series contradicts or otherwise redefines existing canon, "Chronicle" takes precedent. But if there's no disagreement in the "Chronicle" and existing canon, then existing canon remains intact. Given that "Chronicle" doesn't really explore Meryl, Alodi, or any of these other topics very in-depth, the existing canon stands firm. "Chronicle" is not a bludgeon that retroactively annuls everything that came before it even if it doesn't explore it. Nothing about "The First Guardian" or any of WoD is made obsolete by "Chronicle."

[Garymorilix]

"during war campaign" could you be a little more specific?? if you mean the void dinosaurs, those are golems.

Calia is a plothole. No one really knows what she is, just look at every thread that have been made to discuss about her. So far she contradicts two lore sources, Chronicles and the word of a dev. Like i said before, is pointless to talk about her until we have more information.


Kaelthas never died at netherstorm, he was saved at last minute.

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yeah, i suppose thats the case.

I just did the Zuldazar assault to make sure.
Umbric says they infuse the corpse with the void. The being in itself is not controlled, he even says it needs to be detroyed before it becomes too strong.

You can't really call it a golem. It is a void-based undead being.
If this is a "golem" then literally every single ghoul and abomination and lesser undead is a "golem" and not "true undead".
These void creatures would qualify easily to be lesser undead (mostly mindless but still an independent being).

Calia is as undead as it gets. Her purpose is not sure yet, not her being. Look at the in-game model.

I was wrong about Kael I give you that.

[Piamonte]

Ner'zhul is, however, far from alone in making use of the Dark Star's energies - and he is the only being we encounter in the Edge of Reality. So yes, Ner'zhul may be using both Death and Void magic (his presence in the Shadowlands neither confirms nor denies this), but we *know* that Void magic and energy is certainly in place elsewhere in the Shadowmoon Grounds of SMV.

Its ambiguous, whatever the case, Chronicles 1 takes precedence and those skeletons were raised using death magic.

Ner'zhul is, however, far from alone in making use of the Dark Star's energies - and he is the only being we encounter in the Edge of Reality. So yes, Ner'zhul may be using both Death and Void magic (his presence in the Shadowlands neither confirms nor denies this), but we *know* that Void magic and energy is certainly in place elsewhere in the Shadowmoon Grounds of SMV.

If you translate Archimonde´s spell when he destroys Dalaran, he talks about arcane magic coming from the twisting nether. You are right at 2009 they still used the rules of warcraft 3 and those rules say that arcane, necromancy, fel and void, are one and the same.

Meryl is a case of Arcane magic putting a soul back in one's body, and Farondis and his people are cases of Arcane magic actually creating free-willed non-corporeal undead beings. No one is denying Necromancy is fueled by Death magic, to my knowledge, only that Necromancy is not the only way you wind up with undeath as a result. It's probably the easiest way to do it, and the most common, but not alone.

I repeat, it isnt stated how he resurrected himself, so as i said before a) Chronicles takes precedence and b) they were using the old rules.
Farondis and co arent part of this discussion, they are restless spirits, not undeads per se, and they were cursed by Azshara, it isnt event necromancy, seriusly is tiresome having to write things over and over again.

That's not how canon works. Where the "Chronicle" series contradicts or otherwise redefines existing canon, "Chronicle" takes precedent. But if there's no disagreement in the "Chronicle" and existing canon, then existing canon remains intact. Given that "Chronicle" doesn't really explore Meryl, Alodi, or any of these other topics very in-depth, the existing canon stands firm. "Chronicle" is not a bludgeon that retroactively annuls everything that came before it even if it doesn't explore it. Nothing about "The First Guardian" or any of WoD is made obsolete by "Chronicle."

Yes, Chronicles is retroactive, otherwise the lore loses coherence, this is simple logic. Raising the dead is necromancy and necromancy is fueled by death magic, not arcane, nor anything else. If you say that the arcane or the void resurrected the dead, the yes, existing canon would be in disagreement with Chronicles, but thats not the case, because (ill repeat myself again..) those cases are ambiguous at most, so Chronicles takes precedence and we take from granted that those undeads were raised by death magic.

[Maljinwo]

Blood magic seems an off-shoot of voodoo, using blood as the catalyst instead of spirits, shadow, life or arcane

Thousands of years later, blood magic became a school of its own, focusing on perverting life

[Aucald]

Its ambiguous, whatever the case, Chronicles 1 takes precedence and those skeletons were raised using death magic.

Neither "Chronicle Vol. 1" nor "Chronicle Vol. 2" go into the events that occurred on AU Draenor in WoD.

If you translate Archimonde´s spell when he destroys Dalaran, he talks about arcane magic coming from the twisting nether. You are right at 2009 they still used the rules of warcraft 3 and those rules say that arcane, necromancy, fel and void, are one and the same.

Archimonde is laying claim to all of magic because he's a megalomaniac, and the Eredar were masters of both the Arcane and Fel magic before Humanity even rightly existed. He's not detailing the origin of all magic in a literal sense, he's just making a badass boast before using his own magic to destroy an entire city.

I repeat, it isnt stated how he resurrected himself, so as i said before a) Chronicles takes precedence and b) they were using the old rules. Farondis and co arent part of this discussion, they are restless spirits, not undeads per se, and they were cursed by Azshara, it isnt event necromancy, seriusly is tiresome having to write things over and over again.

You don't need to repeat yourself, but you're still in error. "Chronicle" neither covers nor invalidates any of these events, so the old "rules" as you refer to them remain. Restless spirits *are* undead and thus are quite pertinent to the discussion. If you find discussion tiresome then don't contribute further.

Yes, Chronicles is retroactive, otherwise the lore loses coherence, this is simple logic. Raising the dead is necromancy and necromancy is fueled by death magic, not arcane, nor anything else. If you say that the arcane or the void resurrected the dead, the yes, existing canon would be in disagreement with Chronicles, but thats not the case, because (ill repeat myself again..) those cases are ambiguous at most, so Chronicles takes precedence and we take from granted that those undeads were raised by death magic.

You misunderstand what I mean. "Chronicle" does not itself encapsulate every iota of known lore - it's a reference book, a rough timeline, and while it contains many a detail previously not known it doesn't contain the minutiae of *every* piece of Warcraft content that exists. Where there are gaps, it fills them, and if there is conflict then "Chronicle" supersedes known lore. None of this is in contest. But that leaves reams and reams of information that "Chronicle" either A.) does not touch on at all, or B.) is obliquely referenced but not explored. All of that secondary and supplemental lore remains intact and canon as long as it is present in accepted canon sources of Warcraft lore. "Chronicle" doesn't touch on the events of the manga series, for example, and they're still canon. It doesn't touch on many of the comics, and they're still canon. "Chronicle" doesn't annul any of these sources - and one of the sources being used here, "The First Guardian," is among that set of materials.

"Chronicle" also doesn't remove all of WoW's existing ambiguities. Far from it.

[Piamonte]

Neither "Chronicle Vol. 1" nor "Chronicle Vol. 2" go into the events that occurred on AU Draenor in WoD.

You don't need to repeat yourself, but you're still in error. "Chronicle" neither covers nor invalidates any of these events, so the old "rules" as you refer to them remain. Restless spirits *are* undead and thus are quite pertinent to the discussion.

You misunderstand what I mean. "Chronicle" does not itself encapsulate every iota of known lore - it's a reference book, a rough timeline, and while it contains many a detail previously not known it doesn't contain the minutiae of *every* piece of Warcraft content that exists. Where there are gaps, it fills them, and if there is conflict then "Chronicle" supersedes known lore. None of this is in contest. But that leaves reams and reams of information that "Chronicle" either A.) does not touch on at all, or B.) is obliquely referenced but not explored. All of that secondary and supplemental lore remains intact and canon as long as it is present in accepted canon sources of Warcraft lore. "Chronicle" doesn't touch on the events of the manga series, for example, and they're still canon. It doesn't touch on many of the comics, and they're still canon. "Chronicle" doesn't annul any of these sources - and one of the sources being used here, "The First Guardian," is among that set of materials.

"Chronicle" also doesn't remove all of WoW's existing ambiguities. Far from it.

If ambiguous, if the game doesnt explicitly tells you what is happening, then you go with the next best thing and that is Chronicles, because in the examples presented, Chronicles gives us an easy and elegant solution, which is: "they are using death magic". Otherwise the plotholes would multiply by the hundreds.

Archimonde is laying claim to all of magic because he's a megalomaniac, and the Eredar were masters of both the Arcane and Fel magic before Humanity even rightly existed. He's not detailing the origin of all magic in a literal sense, he's just making a badass boast before using his own magic to destroy an entire city.

oh my god you are full of crap, i mean c´mon, thats your explanation?? you couldnt come with anything better than that?? your mental gymnastics are of the charts. 2009 plays with warcraft 3 rules, this is basic knowledge and warcraft 3 plays with warcraft 2 rules, why do you think guldan could use fel, void and death magic?? why do you think kelthuzad discovered how to raise undead being a mage?? because back then void, death, and fel didnt exist, everything was just magic and arcane was just the name.

[Aucald]

If ambiguous, if the game doesnt explicitly tells you what is happening, then you go with the next best thing and that is Chronicles, because in the examples presented, Chronicles gives us an easy and elegant solution, which is: "they are using death magic". Otherwise the plotholes would multiply by the hundreds.

Given the givens, what you fear has well already occurred in BfA even if your claim about "Chronicle" were true.

oh my god you are full of crap, i mean c´mon, thats your explanation?? you couldnt come with anything better than that?? your mental gymnastics are of the charts. 2009 plays with warcraft 3 rules, this is basic knowledge and warcraft 3 plays with warcraft 2 rules, why do you think guldan could use fel, void and death magic?? why do you think kelthuzad discovered how to raise undead being a mage?? because back then void, death, and fel didnt exist, everything was just magic and arcane was just the name.

I am not "full of crap," and yes, that is my explanation - I'm pretty sure it's probably most people's take on it as well, whereas yours is more... unique. I don't really quite understand what you mean by this "plays with rules" thing, unless that is how you view furtherance and cultivation of lore going forward. The story of Gul'dan and Kel'thuzad are known, so none of these things should be a question for you. I don't know where you've arrive at this idea of "all forms of magic being the same until 2009" idea you have, but it's definitely not correct. Kel'thuzad was a Mage who began to explore the "forbidden" realms of Necromancy - that was his story all the way back in WC3. Necromancy wouldn't be "forbidden" if it was the same thing as Arcane magic, would it? In lore, individuals aren't quite as pigeonholed as they are in gameplay terms, and a Mage can become a Necromancer just as a Shaman can be become a Warlock.

Warlocks have always used Shadow magic in conjunction with Fire and Fel. Void wasn't really a quantified school of magic at that time, but Shadow was. This argument is also starting to get off track from the original topic of the thread, as well - so probably best to return to the actual topic at hand as opposed to meandering into the entirely different track of what is or isn't canon.

[Piamonte]

Given the givens, what you fear has well already occurred in BfA even if your claim about "Chronicle" were true.

i dont understand what you are trying to say here.

I am not "full of crap," and yes, that is my explanation - I'm pretty sure it's probably most people's take on it as well, whereas yours is more... unique. I don't really quite understand what you mean by this "plays with rules" thing, unless that is how you view furtherance and cultivation of lore going forward. The story of Gul'dan and Kel'thuzad are known, so none of these things should be a question for you. I don't know where you've arrive at this idea of "all forms of magic being the same until 2009" idea you have, but it's definitely not correct. Kel'thuzad was a Mage who began to explore the "forbidden" realms of Necromancy - that was his story all the way back in WC3. Necromancy wouldn't be "forbidden" if it was the same thing as Arcane magic, would it? In lore, individuals aren't quite as pigeonholed as they are in gameplay terms, and a Mage can become a Necromancer just as a Shaman can be become a Warlock.

Warlocks have always used Shadow magic in conjunction with Fire and Fel. Void wasn't really a quantified school of magic at that time, but Shadow was. This argument is also starting to get off track from the original topic of the thread, as well - so probably best to return to the actual topic at hand as opposed to meandering into the entirely different track of what is or isn't canon.

necromancy was "forbidden magic" and arcane was not, either way, both were just "magic" thats what i meant by saying that they were one and the same. The same happens with fel and arcane, Archimonde says something along the lines "you got your magic stealing from us", because back then in warcraft 3, arcane magic came from the twisting nether, this is also the original explanation as to how azshara atracted demons into azeroth, because the well of eternity, being a powerful source of arcane magic caused ripples in the twisting nether. It is all tied together nicely. But you come with this convulated made up answer about Archimonde being megalomaniac and whatnot, i mean, c´mon and what is worse you start with fallacies like:

I'm pretty sure it's probably most people's take on it as well

seriusly?? we dont know what other people think about this, stop pretending you speak for everyone and suport your claims with facts or logic.

[Aucald]

i dont understand what you are trying to say here.

As in we know Calia wasn't raised by Death magic, or Void magic, or Fel. So regardless of how you want to slice it canonically, undead beings have now been created by at least Death and Light magics.

necromancy was "forbidden magic" and arcane was not, either way, both were just "magic" thats what i meant by saying that they were one and the same. The same happens with fel and arcane, Archimonde says something along the lines "you got your magic stealing from us", because back then in warcraft 3, arcane magic came from the twisting nether, this is also the original explanation as to how azshara atracted demons into azeroth, because the well of eternity, being a powerful source of arcane magic caused ripples in the twisting nether. It is all tied together nicely. But you come with this convulated made up answer about Archimonde being megalomaniac and whatnot, i mean, c´mon and what is worse you start with fallacies like:

They're obviously not "one in the same," as one is permitted and studied in depth, and the other is forbidden and frowned upon. And we know Necromancy isn't just Arcane magic with a dash of Death, either; because we know the origins of the first Lich King, the Plague of Undeath, and all the details surrounding the rise of the Scourge (who are not Arcane in nature by any means) - the Lich King being the one who taught Kel'thuzad what little he knew of that form of magic. This isn't something that magically changed in 2009, either, this information we've got all the way back to 2002 during WC3. And further, if you chase it back to the Orcish Necrolytes of WC2 (1995) who could create skeletons from corpses using Shadow magic and/or Necromancy themselves (having no Arcane knowledge by dint of being former Shaman).

seriusly?? we dont know what other people think about this, stop pretending you speak for everyone and suport your claims with facts or logic.

I could well say that's exactly what you're doing - assuming your take on it is somehow the objective one, while I'm just coming out of left field. And no, I don't speak for everyone, but I've honestly never heard your take on it before, whereas I've heard mine several times from multiple sources. Make of that what you will.

As for supporting the "claim," okay then. Firstly, let's look at it from a lore perspective:

"Let this scar signify the first blow against the mortal world...
From this seal shall arise the doom of men...
Who, in their arrogance thought to wield our fire as their own...
Blindly they built their kingdoms upon stolen knowledge and conceit...
Now they shall be consumed by very flame they thought to control...
Let the echoes of doom resound across this wretched world, that all who live may hear them and despair."

You want to take Archimonde's word as canon for the nature of magic prior to WoW? Firstly, he refers to magic as "our fire," implying that he and the Legion somehow own it - that seems to back my view of it more than yours, as obviously neither Archimonde nor the Eredar can own the Arcane. The Well of Eternity and the nature of Arcane magic being latent in Azeroth was already established fact, so the "fire" wielded by Dalaran and the Mages doesn't belong to the Legion. Secondly, Dalaran didn't steal knowledge, they were given it by the High Elves, who taught the first Human Magi the art of spellcraft (again, still sticking with canon as of WC3) for their role in aiding the High Elves in the Troll Wars. Where's the stolen knowledge, where's the conceit? It's pure bluster on Archimonde's part, perfectly in keeping with his arrogant and domineering personality - assuming that the use of magic is by right his alone, and casting a jaundiced eye on upstart mortals attempting to use magic to defy the Legion's goals on Azeroth.

Secondly, look at it from a narrative perspective. You think Archimonde was newly summoned to Azeroth, standing in the spotlight for a pivotal scene in the story, to what? Exposition the player (not even an in-game character or set-piece) on the nature of magic? To what end? What is even the sense in that? It's a curse against the defenders of Azeroth, powerfully delivered with sneering contempt, from the lips of a literal demon. Archimonde isn't explaining the nature of magic to no one, nor at the moment does he probably even care. He's just being grandiloquent because he's amused, and he thinks by arriving on Azeroth that the game is already over.

And, again, this is wandering far afield from the original topic.

[Jawless Jones]

described as a form of "tortured life magic"

I'm pretty sure that's the reason.

Also, at this point pretty much anything can create undead, so far the only thing that can't make undead is the elements.
But give it time and I'm guessing some shaman will make undead using the element of spirit.

[Piamonte]

As in we know Calia wasn't raised by Death magic, or Void magic, or Fel. So regardless of how you want to slice it canonically, undead beings have now been created by at least Death and Light magics.



They're obviously not "one in the same," as one is permitted and studied in depth, and the other is forbidden and frowned upon. And we know Necromancy isn't just Arcane magic with a dash of Death, either; because we know the origins of the first Lich King, the Plague of Undeath, and all the details surrounding the rise of the Scourge (who are not Arcane in nature by any means) - the Lich King being the one who taught Kel'thuzad what little he knew of that form of magic. This isn't something that magically changed in 2009, either, this information we've got all the way back to 2002 during WC3. And further, if you chase it back to the Orcish Necrolytes of WC2 (1995) who could create skeletons from corpses using Shadow magic and/or Necromancy themselves (having no Arcane knowledge by dint of being former Shaman).



I could well say that's exactly what you're doing - assuming your take on it is somehow the objective one, while I'm just coming out of left field. And no, I don't speak for everyone, but I've honestly never heard your take on it before, whereas I've heard mine several times from multiple sources. Make of that what you will.

As for supporting the "claim," okay then. Firstly, let's look at it from a lore perspective:

"Let this scar signify the first blow against the mortal world...
From this seal shall arise the doom of men...
Who, in their arrogance thought to wield our fire as their own...
Blindly they built their kingdoms upon stolen knowledge and conceit...
Now they shall be consumed by very flame they thought to control...
Let the echoes of doom resound across this wretched world, that all who live may hear them and despair."

You want to take Archimonde's word as canon for the nature of magic prior to WoW? Firstly, he refers to magic as "our fire," implying that he and the Legion somehow own it - that seems to back my view of it more than yours, as obviously neither Archimonde nor the Eredar can own the Arcane. The Well of Eternity and the nature of Arcane magic being latent in Azeroth was already established fact, so the "fire" wielded by Dalaran and the Mages doesn't belong to the Legion. Secondly, Dalaran didn't steal knowledge, they were given it by the High Elves, who taught the first Human Magi the art of spellcraft (again, still sticking with canon as of WC3) for their role in aiding the High Elves in the Troll Wars. Where's the stolen knowledge, where's the conceit? It's pure bluster on Archimonde's part, perfectly in keeping with his arrogant and domineering personality - assuming that the use of magic is by right his alone, and casting a jaundiced eye on upstart mortals attempting to use magic to defy the Legion's goals on Azeroth.

Secondly, look at it from a narrative perspective. You think Archimonde was newly summoned to Azeroth, standing in the spotlight for a pivotal scene in the story, to what? Exposition the player (not even an in-game character or set-piece) on the nature of magic? To what end? What is even the sense in that? It's a curse against the defenders of Azeroth, powerfully delivered with sneering contempt, from the lips of a literal demon. Archimonde isn't explaining the nature of magic to no one, nor at the moment does he probably even care. He's just being grandiloquent because he's amused, and he thinks by arriving on Azeroth that the game is already over.

And, again, this is wandering far afield from the original topic.

dude, they could call it shadow magic, or arcane, but the thing is, it was just magic, it was like saying bad magic and good magic, good magic is what the mages do, bad magic can be used to raise the dead or call the demons or whatever, there wasnt a more profound distinction between each type of magic and that was pretty much the case from warcraft 2 to may be Chronicles.

In the warcraft RPG that today is not canon but served as the foundation for the story of the rts games, it is mentioned that magic comes from the twisting nether.

The rest is mental gymnastics.

This is my last responde, bye.

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I'm pretty sure that's the reason.

Also, at this point pretty much anything can create undead, so far the only thing that can't make undead is the elements.
But give it time and I'm guessing some shaman will make undead using the element of spirit.

no, thats a misconception, like i told aucald, in every single example (except for Calia which is a weird thing) that you think someone raised the dead using another type of magic:

a) it wasnt really other type of magic, it was death magic, you just werent paying attention.
b) it wasnt really necromancy at all (see the botani and the infected)
c) they were golems, constructs, not undeads.
d) it is ambiguous or it is not mentioned what magic was used, in which case, chronicles 1 takes precedence so we have to assume that is death magic.