[Theory] Sylvanas is being controlled out of her own will by the Jailor

[Tripzzz]

That's not how it works, though; else you could say any characters who simply survives some epic tale did so because "plot armor" allowed it. Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn? They all survive the fight with Sauron due to plot armor, because the authors just let them live. Luke Skywalker? Psshh, plot armor is all that let him live through "Return of the Jedi." The writers determine how the story will be told, whereas plot armor is more a consequence of the nature of stories and not an element granted by the authors or even the readers. It's a trope, not an attribute.

Main characters usually have plot armor. That is how it works.

[Aucald]

Main characters usually have plot armor. That is how it works.

Main characters usually survive because the story is their story, they're the protagonist. Except in cases where they're not, or the lens of the story changes, and then they can (and usually do) die accordingly for dramatic effect. Again, that's not plot armor - that's storytelling.

[Tripzzz]

Main characters usually survive because the story is their story, they're the protagonist. Except in cases where they're not, or the lens of the story changes, and then they can (and usually do) die accordingly for dramatic effect. Again, that's not plot armor - that's storytelling.

Their story being their story is literally part of the definition of plot armor.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor

"Because he is essential to the plot, he can't be removed from the story until the final confrontation. "

"Sometimes referred to as "Script Immunity" or a "Character Shield", Plot Armor is when a main character's life and health are safeguarded by the fact that he's the one person who can't be removed from the story. "

[omeomorfismo]

I also don't care about her failing or being imprisoned. I want her to die. Yet the developers are protecting her from death. Wtf do you call that if not plot armor?

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That is plot armor. I want her dead yet the developers are protecting her from death. Saying "that's how it is" addresses nothing.

they should rewrite a story, remake cinematics, change entire expansions because you dont like it? lol?

[Tripzzz]

they should rewrite a story, remake cinematics, change entire expansions because you dont like it? lol?

And you don't think the BfA story should have changed? You liked the story and want nothing changed??? LOL indeed.

[Aucald]

Their story being their story is literally part of the definition of plot armor.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor

"Because he is essential to the plot, he can't be removed from the story until the final confrontation. "

"Sometimes referred to as "Script Immunity" or a "Character Shield", Plot Armor is when a main character's life and health are safeguarded by the fact that he's the one person who can't be removed from the story. "

Yes, this has been established - what you're not understanding is the mechanism involved. The outcome is indeed the character in question is protected from death, but this isn't due to the actual shape of the story being told. If the only thing otherwise "protecting" a given character is narrative hindsight, that isn't plot armor. It needs to be an external circumstance like the fact they can't be removed from the story because they're the main character relating the story, for instance. Sylvanas has no such circumstance, nothing safeguarding her from removal, except the shape of the narrative itself. She doesn't die because, quite literally, she doesn't die - not because she's other indispensable, or protected, or the focal point. She doesn't die for the same reason Aragon doesn't die, because this is not the story in which she dies.

Again, that's not plot armor, it's just narrative flow.

[omeomorfismo]

And you don't think the BfA story should have changed? You liked the story and want nothing changed??? LOL indeed.

this doesnt change the definition of plot armor.
when i write a story, and hint a specific part of it, this doesnt costitute plot armor. im hinting, not protecting my characters from death

[Tripzzz]

Yes, this has been established - what you're not understanding is the mechanism involved. The outcome is indeed the character in question is protected from death, but this isn't due to the actual shape of the story being told. If the only thing otherwise "protecting" a given character is narrative hindsight, that isn't plot armor. It needs to be an external circumstance like the fact they can't be removed from the story because they're the main character relating the story, for instance. Sylvanas has no such circumstance, nothing safeguarding her from removal, except the shape of the narrative itself. She doesn't die because, quite literally, she doesn't die - not because she's other indispensable, or protected, or the focal point. She doesn't die for the same reason Aragon doesn't die, because this is not the story in which she dies.

Again, that's not plot armor, it's just narrative flow.

Plot armor does not have to work against narrative flow. The narrative can be built around a character's plot armor. Shadowlands cinematic is seen from her perspective. She is the focal point. Saying she doesn't die because "she doesn't die" isn't an answer.

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this doesnt change the definition of plot armor.
when i write a story, and hint a specific part of it, this doesnt costitute plot armor. im hinting, not protecting my characters from death

The developers literally said they are protecting her from death.

https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...ont-die-in-bfa

[Aucald]

Plot armor does not have to work against narrative flow. The narrative can be built around a character's plot armor. Shadowlands cinematic is seen from her perspective. She is the focal point. Saying she doesn't die because "she doesn't die" isn't an answer.

Plot armor is neither adjacent nor perpendicular to narrative flow - it has no bearing on it. Narrative also isn't built around plot armor, as plot armor itself is an external outgrowth of specific types of story. Just like no one writes a story around a character being a Mary Sue (another oft-used and misused narrative trope). Shadowlands's cinematic is told from a third-party fixed point showing the fight between two marquee characters for the expansion.

I know you want Sylvanas to be girded with plot armor because you don't like the character, but Sylvanas has no real plot armor. You're free to dislike Sylvanas regardless, though; I'm not very enamored of her either and I wanted her story to end one way or another in BfA as opposed to carrying over into yet another expansion. But this is the story being told.

[Tripzzz]

Plot armor is neither adjacent nor perpendicular to narrative flow - it has no bearing on it. Narrative also isn't built around plot armor, as plot armor itself is an external outgrowth of specific types of story. Just like no one writes a story around a character being a Mary Sue (another oft-used and misused narrative trope). Shadowlands's cinematic is told from a third-party fixed point showing the fight between two marquee characters for the expansion.

I know you want Sylvanas to be girded with plot armor because you don't like the character, but Sylvanas has no real plot armor. You're free to dislike Sylvanas regardless, though; I'm not very enamored of her either and I wanted her story to end one way or another in BfA as opposed to carrying over into yet another expansion. But this is the story being told.

Plot armor has no bearing on the narrative? How so? When you write a story, you usually give the main character plot armor to protect them from death and having the story end too soon. Thus you craft a story based around the main characters plot armor. They can't die, so something always gets them out of sticky situations. Sure they can get injured or imprisoned or suffer extreme hardship and loss. But they are (usually) protected from dying and the narrative is built around that.

[agentsi]

The entire point of this thread is dumb, and a waste of time. Blizzard has already stated in an official format, that Sylvannas is acting on behalf of her own will, and is not being controlled by anyone. She is working with the jailer, not for, not under his command, with.

If you frequent these forums enough, you know this. So why the fuck do we need a thread with a dumb fan theory that was debunked months ago when Shadowlands was announced. Ion literally said during the QnA that this wasn't the case. But instead, someone decided to make yet ANOTHER thread, with a theory that was debunked before it even started. Fucking christ.

[Aucald]

Plot armor has no bearing on the narrative? How so? When you write a story, you usually give the main character plot armor to protect them from death and having the story end too soon. Thus you craft a story based around the main characters plot armor. They can't die, so something always gets them out of sticky situations. Sure they can get injured or imprisoned or suffer extreme hardship and loss. But they are (usually) protected from dying and the narrative is built around that.

No author worth their salt sets out to knowingly (much less publicly) bard their characters in plot armor, because doing so cheapens the drama inherent in any non-comedic story and also increases the weight of disbelief required to be suspended to successfully immerse yourself in the world of the story and enjoy it. It would be like Tolkien having a forward to "Return of the King" where he outright says "Aragon, Gimli, Legolas, and the Hobbits all survive the battle against Sauron, while Sauron bites it at the conclusion. Have fun storming the castle, reader." That's not how you tell stories, even though the survival of the main characters is generally a given - it's what we expect, although we're still occasionally blindsided by clever use of narrative tropes and such.

[Tripzzz]

No author worth their salt sets out to knowingly (much less publicly) bard their characters in plot armor, because doing so cheapens the drama inherent in any non-comedic story and also increases the weight of disbelief required to be suspended to successfully immerse yourself in the world of the story and enjoy it. It would be like Tolkien having a forward to "Return of the King" where he outright says "Aragon, Gimli, Legolas, and the Hobbits all survive the battle against Sauron, while Sauron bites it at the conclusion. Have fun storming the castle, reader." That's not how you tell stories, even though the survival of the main characters is generally a given - it's what we expect, although we're still occasionally blindsided by clever use of narrative tropes and such.

*Cough* blizzard writers *cough*

The problem with your example is that Tolkien didn't have an event like chinajoy2019, where he said "Do you think we will kill Aragon, Gimli, Legolas, and the Hobbits? Nooooooo...." Whereas that did happen with Slyvanus. Tolkien writing that in a foward would have the same effect.

[huth]

Their story being their story is literally part of the definition of plot armor.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor

"Because he is essential to the plot, he can't be removed from the story until the final confrontation. "

"Sometimes referred to as "Script Immunity" or a "Character Shield", Plot Armor is when a main character's life and health are safeguarded by the fact that he's the one person who can't be removed from the story. "

Keep reading. Plot armour isn't just when somebody can't die because it's their story. Plot armour is when there is no proper explanation in-universe for why they aren't dying, and they're solely being kept alive because the plot demands it, logical progression be damned.

Sylvanas is not super-undead-elfily durable beyond what she was previously shown to be in BfA. She just never gets attacked in a way that should actually result in her death to begin with.

[omeomorfismo]

Plot armor does not have to work against narrative flow. The narrative can be built around a character's plot armor. Shadowlands cinematic is seen from her perspective. She is the focal point. Saying she doesn't die because "she doesn't die" isn't an answer.

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The developers literally said they are protecting her from death.

https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...ont-die-in-bfa

no, they said that sylvanas wont die in bfa, you know, because bfa was written like 2 or 3 years ago and they know what would happen

[Tripzzz]

Keep reading. Plot armour isn't just when somebody can't die because it's their story. Plot armour is when there is no proper explanation in-universe for why they aren't dying, and they're solely being kept alive because the plot demands it, logical progression be damned.

Sylvanas is not super-undead-elfily durable beyond what she was previously shown to be in BfA. She just never gets attacked in a way that should actually result in her death to begin with.

You mean like the Shadowlands cinematic? Where Slyvanus literally solos all of ICC? Blizzard had to asspull the whole Jailer/maw bullshit in. A retcon that negates 99% of Slyvanus' internal monologue for that cinematic to "make sense".

[The Butt Witch]

That would be so fucking lame. "Oh she was mind controlled. She never meant to commit those atrocities".

[Tripzzz]

no, they said that sylvanas wont die in bfa, you know, because bfa was written like 2 or 3 years ago and they know what would happen

So Slyvanus has the most plot armor out of any character in BfA.

[Aucald]

*Cough* blizzard writers *cough*

The problem with your example is that Tolkien didn't have an event like chinajoy2019, where he said "Do you think we will kill Aragon, Gimli, Legolas, and the Hobbits? Nooooooo...." Whereas that did happen with Slyvanus. Tolkien writing that in a foward would have the same effect.

The context of that question was about the repetition of a theme (e.g. Garrosh and MoP), not "protecting" Sylvanas from harm because she's beloved, indispensable, or otherwise so important she cannot die. The authorial intent is one of explaining how the story will be new, not protecting or safeguarding a given character. It was still a dumb thing to day outright, don't get me wrong, but it's not explicitly plot armor. It's more or less a reveal of the story being told for the purposes of confirming that it is thematically different from a previous story. If I (or even Tolkien) told someone who'd never read "Lord of the Rings" that Legolas survives the story, I wouldn't be retroactively giving Legolas plot armor - I'd just be revealing a detail of the end of the story.

[Tripzzz]

The context of that question was about the repetition of a theme (e.g. Garrosh and MoP), not "protecting" Sylvanas from harm because she's beloved, indispensable, or otherwise so important she cannot die. The authorial intent is one of explaining how the story will be new, not protecting or safeguarding a given character. It was still a dumb thing to day outright, don't get me wrong, but it's not explicitly plot armor. It's more or less a reveal of the story being told for the purposes of confirming that it is thematically different from a previous story. If I (or even Tolkien) told someone who'd never read "Lord of the Rings" that Legolas survives the story, I wouldn't be retroactively giving Legolas plot armor - I'd just be revealing a detail of the end of the story.

The difference being inconsistenties that Slyvanus would have died if she went to ICC solo prior to getting Jailer/Maw asspull. She had to get a power up to not only "not die" but to completely curbstomp the scourge. Her actions of raising the dead humans and night elves no longer makes any sense when those souls would be more useful to her if they were sent to the maw to directly empower herself since she had made her pact with the Jailer in edge of night.