[Theory] Sylvanas is being controlled out of her own will by the Jailor

[Mehrunes]

Blizzard themselves have stated that Slyvanus won't die. That is literally the most plot amor any character in the setting has ever had. What other character is explicitly stated by the devs to be protected from dying?

First of all, it was for BfA, not in general (though I love your backtracking in your replies to @Aucald). Secondly, since when is dying the only consequence out there?

so every character that isnt dying has plot armor?

Duh, of course.

[Darth-Piekus]

So Slyvanus has the most plot armor out of any character in BfA.

The thing is that Sylvannas would have been more believable if she was actually badly wounded and actually suffered a serious consequence from a failed plan or battle instead of being shown soloing everything to a flawless victory.

[Mehrunes]

No. Every character that the developers state "will not die" has plot armor.

And what magical property of that sentence does it make it so? It's a spoiler of the story, nothing more. Blizzard made the decision that Sylvanas would not die in the time frame relevant to what they were talking during that event but guess what, the same applied to most other characters as Blizzard doesn't kill many characters every expansion. Them sharing that decision in regards to Sylvanas because they were asked about her in particular doesn't make that decision any different than it was for all the other characters that did not die in BfA. Your argument is special pleading and a terrible case of it at that.

[Aucald]

The difference being inconsistenties that Slyvanus would have died if she went to ICC solo prior to getting Jailer/Maw asspull. She had to get a power up to not only "not die" but to completely curbstomp the scourge. Her actions of raising the dead humans and night elves no longer makes any sense when those souls would be more useful to her if they were sent to the maw to directly empower herself since he had made her pact with the Jailer in edge of night.

I don't know about an "asspull," given that "X character receiving power from Y character" is a pretty oft-repeated device in WoW. Multiple characters have observed Sylvanas' growing power over the course of her unlife, and now we know the reason for it - she has a patron in the realm of death of itself feeding her power to reach some as-yet-unknown agenda for both their own ends. She raises powerful individuals to increase the power of her own forces and cause yet more strife and death. All in all the story makes sense based on what we already know.

I would imagine it should be satisfying to you that Sylvanas has finally moved from questionable anti-hero to outright villain in the story, though. Essentially means her life is ultimately forfeit, or else she's destined to be defeated at the hands of the PC's one way or the other.

[Tripzzz]

First of all, it was for BfA, not in general (though I love your backtracking in your replies to @Aucald). Secondly, since when is dying the only consequence out there?




Duh, of course.

Plot armor in BfA is still plot armor. Dying is the only consequence Slyvanus cares about. Her being protected from death by the devs kinda makes her fear of death retarded and meaningless.

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I don't know about an "asspull," given that "X character receiving power from Y character" is a pretty oft-repeated device in WoW. Multiple characters have observed Sylvanas' growing power over the course of her unlife, and now we know the reason for it - she has a patron in the realm of death of itself feeding her power to reach some as-yet-unknown agenda for both their own ends. She raises powerful individuals to increase the power of her own forces and cause yet more strife and death. All in all the story makes sense based on what we already know.

I would imagine it should be satisfying to you that Sylvanas has finally moved from questionable anti-hero to outright villain in the story, though. Essentially means her life is ultimately forfeit, or else she's destined to be defeated at the hands of the PC's one way or the other.

It doesn't make sense. Why would Slyvanus care about raising dead fodder as a shield or to cause death if she could use those souls to become so strong no one can kill her but she can kill them?

[kaelix1]

Just more trying to look Sylvanas look like a decent person lol

She murdered innocent defenseless people for power, she is as bad as Arthas

I didn't follow Legion/BFA to much but shouldn't her kill count as high as Arthas nowadays?

[Aucald]

It doesn't make sense. Why would Slyvanus care about raising dead fodder as a shield or to cause death if she could use those souls to become so strong no one can kill her but she can kill them?

We don't really know how it works, so it's pretty much all speculation on our parts. Sylvanas obviously has a reason for her actions, and it's probable that with a powerful army at her back she can accelerate her plans as opposed to relying solely on her own powers (she is, after all, still just one person). Why hurl Delaryn Summermoon into the Maw for whatever anima she might be worth when a converted Delaryn could send many more souls to the Maw working alongside her? Same reason she didn't just decimate the Forsaken for their anima on returning from Northrend in "Edge of Night." She needed an army to act as her bulwark, and the Forsaken and converted Kaldorei dead were part of that bulwark.

[Mehrunes]

In terms of tropes, what you're talking about is more Contractual Immunity/Immortality as it is true Plot Armor. Plot armor is usually an immunity or invulnerability given by the *plot* itself (hence the name), not the author(s) of a given work. Sylvanas "not dying" is also no protection from her being otherwise stopped, imprisoned, de-powered, or otherwise relegated to irrelevance - she won't die, sure; but neither would it matter if she lived. Plot armor is more akin to what protects the Doctor in "Doctor Who," as you can't really kill off the title character of a show that is all about said character. If we played "World of SylvanasCraft" I'd agree she has super-strong plot armor by virtue of the game itself, but we don't.

I'm not seeing how it'd fall under contractual immortality. Contractual immortality refers to characters in TV shows and movies (though mostly TV shows) being safe from dying when there are no news of the actor being axed. The trope that would fit the "best" (though still fucking terribly) would be Saved By Canon because if Sylvanas were to be still alive at the end of BfA then that means she wouldn't die earlier. Except the reason why it would still fit fucking terribly is because the dev was talking about future, unreleased content and plans could have changed. So the term to properly describe it is "spoiler". Nothing more.

[omeomorfismo]

So Slyvanus has the most plot armor out of any character in BfA.

so we return to the point that your definition of plot armor is meaningless. everyone that survive has plot armor. gg

[Tripzzz]

And what magical property of that sentence does it make it so? It's a spoiler of the story, nothing more. Blizzard made the decision that Sylvanas would not die in the time frame relevant to what they were talking during that event but guess what, the same applied to most other characters as Blizzard doesn't kill many characters every expansion. Them sharing that decision in regards to Sylvanas because they were asked about her in particular doesn't make that decision any different than it was for all the other characters that did not die in BfA. Your argument is special pleading and a terrible case of it at that.

Because the possibility of her dying is completely removed with that statement. The other characters still have death as a possibility however unlikely it is, because the devs haven't outright refuted it. Not hard to understand.

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so we return to the point that your definition of plot armor is meaningless. everyone that survive has plot armor. gg

Except not everyone was stated by the devs to be protected from death in BfA. Only Slyvanus. GG.

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We don't really know how it works, so it's pretty much all speculation on our parts. Sylvanas obviously has a reason for her actions, and it's probable that with a powerful army at her back she can accelerate her plans as opposed to relying solely on her own powers (she is, after all, still just one person). Why hurl Delaryn Summermoon into the Maw for whatever anima she might be worth when a converted Delaryn could send many more souls to the Maw working alongside her? Same reason she didn't just decimate the Forsaken for their anima on returning from Northrend in "Edge of Night." She needed an army to act as her bulwark, and the Forsaken and converted Kaldorei dead were part of that bulwark.

Except she abandons them with zero fucks given and proceeds to solo ICC. It. Makes. No. Sense.

[Mehrunes]

I also don't care about her failing or being imprisoned. I want her to die. Yet the developers are protecting her from death. Wtf do you call that if not plot armor?

That is plot armor. I want her dead yet the developers are protecting her from death. Saying "that's how it is" addresses nothing.

Given how you are actually not the center of the universe (as surprising as it may be to you), what you want matters not in regards to tropes like plot armor. What we call you wanting Sylvanas to die and that not happening is your expectations not being met. Shocking, I know.

[omeomorfismo]

Because the possibility of her dying is completely removed with that statement. The other characters still have death as a possibility however unlikely it is, because the devs haven't outright refuted it. Not hard to understand.

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Except not everyone was stated by the devs to be protected from death in BfA. Only Slyvanus. GG.

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Except she abandons them with zero fucks given and proceeds to solo ICC. It. Makes. No. Sense.

in fact they stated that she wont die in bfa, because you know, she actually didnt die.
if they were writing the story in august then she would have plot armor (more or less) but the story was written years ago.
if you still have difficulty to understand this, i can try with a drawing

[Aucald]

Except she abandons them with zero fucks given and proceeds to solo ICC. It. Makes. No. Sense.

She is successfully goaded into outing herself as not caring about them, the Forsaken, or the Horde in general - she essentially breaks the facade of loyalty holding to her, showing she cannot be trusted and is only using them and everyone else as a means to an end. This is why she abandons them and why they in turn abandon her and seek some form of redemption (having seen firsthand how vengeance is a route that goes nowhere). And as evidenced by the Loyalist cutscene at the end of 8.2.5, it's not as if she lost *all* her minions, either.

[NoiseTank13]

I didn't follow Legion/BFA to much but shouldn't her kill count as high as Arthas nowadays?

Equal if not greater kill count than Arthas.

[Mehrunes]

Plot armor in BfA is still plot armor. Dying is the only consequence Slyvanus cares about. Her being protected from death by the devs kinda makes her fear of death retarded and meaningless.

Saying that "plot armor in BfA is still plot armor" is rather meaningless when you haven't established said plot armor in BfA in the first place and your argument in favor of that relies on your special pleading and misunderstanding of the term. Also, is Sylvanas supposed to be aware of the writers' plans for her?

Because the possibility of her dying is completely removed with that statement. The other characters still have death as a possibility however unlikely it is, because the devs haven't outright refuted it. Not hard to understand.

Is there some vengeful deity that would punish Blizzard with eternal torment if they ever changed their plans in regards to Sylvanas once those plans had been shared with the public?

Never mind that Blizzard revealing what characters would be important in Shadowlands during Blizzcon means that those characters would *gasp* survive 8.3, so your claim that Sylvanas is the only character evar Blizzard has "deliberately protected like that" is flat out wrong, which is one of the many reasons why your argument is special pleading.

Equal if not greater kill count than Arthas.

Do source your numbers.

[Tripzzz]

Given how you are actually not the center of the universe (as surprising as it may be to you), what you want matters not in regards to tropes like plot armor. What we call you wanting Sylvanas to die and that not happening is your expectations not being met. Shocking, I know.

Slyvanus' fear of death is her entire motivation. Having the developers flat out say she won't die in a given expansion makes her motivation meaningless. It's not that I expect her to die, I don't because the devs straight up said she won't. What I want is far from what I expect. I want a good story, I expect a trash story. Slyvanus can die offscreen for all I care.

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Is there some vengeful deity that would punish Blizzard with eternal torment if they ever changed their plans in regards to Sylvanas once those plans had been shared with the public?

Never mind that Blizzard revealing what characters would be important in Shadowlands during Blizzcon means that those characters would *gasp* survive 8.3, so your claim that Sylvanas is the only character evar Blizzard has "deliberately protected like that" is flat out wrong, which is one of the many reasons why your argument is special pleading.




Do source your numbers.

Ahhh yes the ol " it can be changed" argument. Have they changed it yet? No???? Don't fall on such trash arguments.

Since Shadowlands is about the afterlife, characters can die in 8.3 and still play a role in the next storyline.

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She is successfully goaded into outing herself as not caring about them, the Forsaken, or the Horde in general - she essentially breaks the facade of loyalty holding to her, showing she cannot be trusted and is only using them and everyone else as a means to an end. This is why she abandons them and why they in turn abandon her and seek some form of redemption (having seen firsthand how vengeance is a route that goes nowhere). And as evidenced by the Loyalist cutscene at the end of 8.2.5, it's not as if she lost *all* her minions, either.

So how is raising minions with the potential to betray you more beneficial than her sending those souls into the maw gaining that power for herself?

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in fact they stated that she wont die in bfa, because you know, she actually didnt die.
if they were writing the story in august then she would have plot armor (more or less) but the story was written years ago.
if you still have difficulty to understand this, i can try with a drawing

It doesn't matter when it was written. What matters is that the devs said she is protected from death.

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Saying that "plot armor in BfA is still plot armor" is rather meaningless when you haven't established said plot armor in BfA in the first place and your argument in favor of that relies on your special pleading and misunderstanding of the term. Also, is Sylvanas supposed to be aware of the writers' plans for her?

The developers said she won't die in BfA. Death is the only consequence Slyvanus cares about. Not hard to comprehend.

https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...ont-die-in-bfa

[huth]

You mean like the Shadowlands cinematic? Where Slyvanus literally solos all of ICC? Blizzard had to asspull the whole Jailer/maw bullshit in. A retcon that negates 99% of Slyvanus' internal monologue for that cinematic to "make sense".

You mean the one after she got a major power-boost in-story, so it doesn't fall under plot armour because there's an in-universe justification?

If anything, what i didn't like about that cinematic was Blizzard's utter failure to actually show off her new-found power.

[Tripzzz]

You mean the one after she got a major power-boost in-story, so it doesn't fall under plot armour because there's an in-universe justification?

If anything, what i didn't like about that cinematic was Blizzard's utter failure to actually show off her new-found power.

The in universe justification conflicts with what was previously established with the character. If every death results in a soul being sent into the maw to power her up, why did she want or even care to raise more forsaken? Those souls would serve her better in the maw. Newly raised undead have the potential to betray her, Slyvanus gaining personal power is better for her in every way. She can't die if no one is strong enough to kill her. She has no need for a meatshield if she has been linked to the maw since the end of Wotlk.

[Aucald]

So how is raising minions with the potential to betray you more beneficial than her sending those souls into the maw gaining that power for herself?

They didn't betray her, she betrayed them. And even if they did betray her it isn't as if they are a danger to her - she could easily kill all of them if and when needed, and they'd be pulled straight to the Maw posthaste. The calculus supported raising them at the time, and she obviously wasn't planning to out herself at that point.

[Aresk]

The in universe justification conflicts with what was previously established with the character. If every death results in a soul being sent into the maw to power her up, why did she want or even care to raise more forsaken? Those souls would serve her better in the maw.

What's your source for this? We don't know how much value one soul has versus how much power she gains. You seem to be jumping to conclusion.

Newly raised undead have the potential to betray her, Slyvanus gaining personal power is better for her in every way. She can't die if no one is strong enough to kill her. She has no need for a meatshield if she has been linked to the maw since the end of Wotlk.

Souls are a resource in this setting. You could cash out your souls now for some undetermined increase in power, or you could invest them in military forces that might yield more souls. An individual investment may be a bad one (e.g. Godfrey, Proudmoore), but she has a rather diversified portfolio at this point. They killed far more Alliance, Blood Trolls, Naga, albatrosses, crabs, etc. than she could've alone. That left her free for "Evil Machinations" during the war campaign. Between the end of Teldrassil and the assault on Orgrimmar, she basically had to do nothing at all. Between the Horde PC, Horde forces, and Nathanos, she managed to accomplish pretty much everything she wanted to. In fact, she's her own worst enemy, in that she couldn't keep her big mouth shut during the duel with Saurfang, which is the only thing that lost her the bulk of the Horde forces, allegedly.