I on Hazzikostas - there will be NO 8.3.5

[Tesshin83]

Nice. Best part of the expansion is when I finally have time for alts and achievements. The fun stuff

[Onikaroshi]

I would bet money they launch the new leveling system sometime in the summer.

Based on where Shadowlands was at blizzcon and what we have seen since then, it is a ways away. I really think a late Nov launch is what we are looking at, maybe even going live right after blizzcon.

What easier way to bump numbers and give players content in the down time than launching the revamped leveling system. You can pitch it as both a thing for existing players to level alts or choose a new main for shadowlands and as a way to get new/returning players back.

I feel like 9.0 (the prepatch) would be the perfect time to have a 2 month prepatch to get used to the new leveling system and the ability changes and all that, so summer would def be a good time.

[Kief]

I'm doing it as a means to an end, I have to do it if I want to be competitive at the things that I actually do enjoy.

Are you actually implying that everyone doing AP, World Quests, Essences etc are actually doing it because they enjoy it?

That is how hobbies work for human beings, yes.
If you wouldn’t enjoy doing it (and playing World of Warcraft isn’t litterally your job) you wouldn’t do it.

You do all of those things because you enjoy the reward that comes from it. People find gym activities physically exhausting but they keep showing up because they enjoy the results.

[Tech614]

Nah man apparently there are totally hundreds of thousands of people who enjoy doing the exact same collect 10 weeds WQ for the hundredth time. These people totally exist and Blizzard is specifically catering their low effort content to these people.

Which one do you think is more likely? The one you mocked? Or the other hand where there are supposedly millions of people that play a game they supposedly hate? Please enlighten us alt account.

[DemonDays]

The majority of players--whom we know are not in the upper reaches of raiding or M+land or are excelling at arenas--probably do. I still enjoy them but I don't play every night and I don't stress about doing all of them. There are lots of players like this. More than you know. They play solo, they collect stuff, they don't play all the time (maybe only on weekends), they enjoy pet battles and transmog, and there are a ton of them. The game is very likely being made more with them in mind.

Someone earlier in some other thread wrote that the core audience for the game is mythic raiders. 5%-10% of all players isn't the "core" of much of anything like this.

Tell me. If people could get a sizable AP reward doing the content they actually enjoy(which could be anything) then do you honestly think they would participate in WQs or Islands?

I know you can magically argue that people may enjoy the same WQ for the hundredth time. But if we all had a choice I would wager people would steer clear. Why is the biggest AP reward tied to one piece of content? Do you think it may be because no one would do them otherwise? Likewise. Why is every reward in Islands purely RNG? Why was a Dubloon vendor added with an entirely different set of items to buy?

[Vakna]

So you actually do enjoy the payoff, you would just rather the payoff be free. Yawn.

No, I'd rather the payoff be from a source is enjoyable and makes you look forward to logging in. I don't get home from work every day and say oh boy I can't wait to log in and cap islands and do my AP map clear, it's going to be so much fun it's making my insides tingle in anticipation.

I don't even know why you are arguing against it, the evidence is all there, some of the most popular systems in WoW have been ones that didn't have any player power attached to them at all. Do you think that's the same for BfA? Do you think engagement in Islands, World Quests, Warfronts, AP would be the same if they were side systems that offered no player progression? Fuck no.

Make a poll on this forum, make a poll on any WoW fansite that exists, or on discords, or just gathering opinions in game, list all those features, ask people if that would be the case. I will literally eat my own shoe live on stream if I'm wrong (spoiler, it's because I'm not).

[Relapses]

Tell me. If people could get a sizable AP reward doing the content they actually enjoy(which could be anything) then do you honestly think they would participate in WQs or Islands?

I know you can magically argue that people may enjoy the same WQ for the hundredth time. But if we all had a choice I would wager people would steer clear. Why is the biggest AP reward tied to one piece of content? Do you think it may be because no one would do them otherwise? Likewise. Why is every reward in Islands purely RNG? Why was a Dubloon vendor added with an entirely different set of items to buy?

The argument isn't that there are people who enjoy WQs or the AP grind or Warfronts and Island Expeditions. It's more that the people who are most negatively impacted by the tedious nature of these activities are far more likely to be participating in discussion forums on fan websites. This silent majority of players is whom Blizzard is attempting to cater towards which will inevitably make it seem like players on forums are at odds with the developers. I don't necessarily agree with this approach but it stands to reason that if Blizzard did not cater towards these players that fewer people would be playing. And fewer people playing isn't exactly a goal I think Blizzard sets out to achieve with their design process.

[Onikaroshi]

some of the most popular systems in WoW have been ones that didn't have any player power attached to them at all.

I would love to see your super popular system that has no player power or reward attached.


And you don't NEED to cap islands, you don't NEED to do every WQ. That's you THINKING you do. (And if you're not already capped you haven't been grinding anyway)

[Tech614]

I don't get home from work every day and say oh boy I can't wait to log in and cap islands and do my AP map clear, it's going to be so much fun it's making my insides tingle in anticipation.

Then don't do it genius, no one is forcing you to. The fact you still don't grasp this is amazing.

You want the payoff for free, you want to go back to your days of raid logging and are throwing a hissy fit that blizzard have created content to keep players logging in regularly. Too bad champ, if you want to enjoy the payoff you have to put in the work. Like everything in life. If I don't practice SFV for a month and go to my local I get my ass handed to me. Practicing isn't always the most fun but I have to do it if I want to enjoy the payoff of competitive play.

Meanwhile you're crying because you can't max your neck out just by raid logging. LOL.

Also if your neck hasn't already been capped for 1+ month by now you don't grind hard at all mate. There always is an end to the grind, you just seem to be so salty that you can't raid log and reach that end lmao.

[Relapses]

No, I'd rather the payoff be from a source is enjoyable and makes you look forward to logging in. I don't get home from work every day and say oh boy I can't wait to log in and cap islands and do my AP map clear, it's going to be so much fun it's making my insides tingle in anticipation.

I don't even know why you are arguing against it, the evidence is all there, some of the most popular systems in WoW have been ones that didn't have any player power attached to them at all. Do you think that's the same for BfA? Do you think engagement in Islands, World Quests, Warfronts, AP would be the same if they were side systems that offered no player progression? Fuck no.

Make a poll on this forum, make a poll on any WoW fansite that exists, or on discords, or just gathering opinions in game, list all those features, ask people if that would be the case. I will literally eat my own shoe live on stream if I'm wrong (spoiler, it's because I'm not).

Once more, you're not going to get real feedback on a fan forum like this. People who participate in fan forums aren't in Blizzard's target demographic. You might not like AP grinding, or Islands, or really any of the number of features that Blizzard presents its players with. And you're not alone in that opinion on this website. The issue is that there are a lot of people who don't look at the game like that. They just log in once a day to do random shit. Maybe one day they do some Islands. Another day they'll do some Emissaries. The next they'll knock out a LFR wing. For a player like this, the type of content is almost meaningless since it's not the content itself that they're enjoying. It's the fact that many different types of content is keeping them engaged in the game.

[DemonDays]

Sometimes the devs just have terrible ideas that they want to work conceptually but just can't make happen. Azerite gear was likely envisioned during development as a slightly more deterministic way to bake in the power of Legiondaries and set bonuses. Set bonuses had up until BfA seemingly been a thorn in Blizzard's side because of the nature of needing to constantly think up new, unique ideas while also making sure each tier set was incrementally more powerful. Azerite gear fixed this issue neatly while still keeping some of the interesting flair by allowing them to create traits specific to the raid tier. Additionally, the biggest issue with Legiondaries was how they were acquired. Azerite gear was inherently much easier to obtain and therefore gave them the ability to give specs powerful unique abilities without having to worry about the downside of potentially waiting an entire expansion to get the right piece. On paper, it seemed fine. But then in execution there were all sorts of problems. First there was the inability to trade the gear. Then there was the issue of trait power. Then there was the issue of the AP grind (again). Then, once they finally fixed a lot of these problems in 8.1.5, they decided to complicate the issue further with Essences. Essences, on paper, helped alleviate some of the drawbacks of the Azerite gear system while still greatly boosting player power. In execution, however, they just feel overly burdensome in how you have to require them and make maintaining an alt an absolute fucking nightmare.



The lead dev saying that they have no plan for additional content in the expansion before the final patch is even released is pretty telling (and honestly a little bit frightening). I don't even think they did that with HFC.



I never said you wanted for it to go away completely but time-gating is just one of those things Blizzard does to keep people engaged. And, like I said, it also helps prevent players who can't help themselves from burning out.



"Players were right" is such a nebulous phrase. There's a divide between what the developers want to do and what players want from the game. Sometimes players and devs see eye-to-eye but often times the devs want to see how things pan out before making changes. This leads to a bit of a revisionist take on how Blizzard approaches game development whenever they make changes that players suggested beforehand. That's not to say the dev's didn't "ignore feedback" or that the players were 100% correct and Blizzard should have acted sooner... just that it's not always as simple as Blizzard wholesale accepting everything that players suggest is the best course of action. (And, arguably, would set a precedent which opens the door for game design through democracy... which is a very bad idea.)



To be fair, they buffed the everliving shit out of Shadow and it was overperforming in BoD. Then they nerfed it and it STILL overperformed in EP. They're nerfing it again and some theorycrafting is suggesting that after two patches of consecutive fairly massive nerfs that the spec will STILL overperform in Nya'lotha.

On the other hand, Enhancement Shaman is just a turd. I feel bad for this spec. Give them improved WF totem back so at least they'll have a reason to be brought to raids. RIP.



It's been like this with WoW for awhile. I've been playing for years and I can't remember any time where the expansion didn't feel most polished in its last patch. And I'm a player who actually doesn't mind content droughts because I tend to play a lot of alts towards the end of the expansion. I certainly feel like Blizzard could communicate with its community more clearly, but I try to approach the subject from an angle of, "Okay, why did this happen?" instead of, "What the fuck Blizzard, we TOLD you this would happen." The former lends itself to more productive discourse, imo; the latter just shames the developers for perceived sleights which may or may not have been intentional.

There wasn't anything interesting or exciting about any Azerite trait. There still isn't. Comparing them to Legendaries is just ridiculous. At best they can be compared to Set Bonuses. I find nothing exciting or engaging about my 9th passive proc filling my buff bar. Nor was the gear easier to obtain, until 8.1.5 when they added a Vendor. It still had the exact same problem as Legendaries - you couldn't target or directly farm the trait you actually wanted or needed. You had to rely on pure luck. You're looking at it as it was in 8.1.5, not as it launched.

You claim the developers shouldn't take player feedback on board every single time. But how can a game developer from a multi billion dollar company think that it is okay for you to earn a trait on a piece of gear, unlock it and play around it with. Then get a higher level piece of the same gear and have to re-grind that same trait back. Some of these things are so stupidly obvious it baffles the mind that they ever get implemented in the first place.

Is it stupidity then? Or is it nefarious development? Do they directly want to fuck over their own playerbase? Or are they morons? Pick one.

Your comments on Shadow... Sigh. I wish people would STOP comparing the DPS a spec does and how it functions, how it plays. You can check Priest forums across the internet. Check their Discord etc. I think the majority are not happy with how the spec PLAYS. Sure it may do great damage...


Why did this happen? Refer to my statements about regrinding traits above. Because the developers are stupid? Or because they wanted to fuck their playerbase over? Pick one.

[Onikaroshi]

Once more, you're not going to get real feedback on a fan forum like this. People who participate in fan forums aren't in Blizzard's target demographic. You might not like AP grinding, or Islands, or really any of the number of features that Blizzard presents its players with. And you're not alone in that opinion on this website. The issue is that there are a lot of people who don't look at the game like that. They just log in once a day to do random shit. Maybe one day they do some Islands. Another day they'll do some Emissaries. The next they'll knock out a LFR wing. For a player like this, the type of content is almost meaningless since it's not the content itself that they're enjoying. It's the fact that many different types of content is keeping them engaged in the game.

I had someone argue on the official forums that Pet Battles were a waste of dev time... oh that sweet summer child... I guess people really don't realize how super popular those casual types of content are.

[Vakna]

Then don't do it genius, no one is forcing you to. The fact you still don't grasp this is amazing.

You want the payoff for free, you want to go back to your days of raid logging and are throwing a hissy fit that blizzard have created content to keep players logging in regularly. Too bad champ, if you want to enjoy the payoff you have to put in the work. Like everything in life. If I don't practice SFV for a month and go to my local I get my ass handed to me. Practicing isn't always the most fun but I have to do it if I want to enjoy the payoff of competitive play.

Meanwhile you're crying because you can't max your neck out just by raid logging. LOL.

You still don't understand what I'm trying to say, I don't want the payoff to be free at all. Looking at a game like it's work is just the most wrong approach imaginable.

- - - Updated - - -

I had someone argue on the official forums that Pet Battles were a waste of dev time... oh that sweet summer child... I guess people really don't realize how super popular those casual types of content are.

It's funny that you say that, then in the post above responding to me imply that these types of system don't exist. Same with Mage Towers and Challenge Modes, no player progression but people fucking loved them.

[Soon-TM]

Ok, well I'm playing BfA, not WotLK, or TBC, or Classic. Things are supposed to move forward, not backward.

I'm always mildly amused at many of BfA defenders, they always end up saying "but in Vanilla...!". I mean, they should have learned a couple or two in !@$%ing fifteen years, shouldn't they?

[Tech614]

I had someone argue on the official forums that Pet Battles were a waste of dev time... oh that sweet summer child... I guess people really don't realize how super popular those casual types of content are.

lol my wife literally hated WoW when it was just an instanced pve/pvp focused game. She also loves it now that there is so much random shit she can do that gives minor power increases here and there. The vocal minority on places like this and reddit really have no clue what the majority of WoW players enjoy.

[Onikaroshi]

You still don't understand what I'm trying to say, I don't want the payoff to be free at all. Looking at a game like it's work is just the most wrong approach imaginable.

The game needs to offer rewards from many different sources because people enjoy many different things. That means that, yes, I know people who fucking love Islands.

Problem lies in that some people will want all the things and not know how to control themselves, hence why in SL they're capping gains to save people from themselves, so you'll still be able to get your AP from Islands, and dungeons, and raids, and world quest, and wiping your ass, but you will only need it from a source ore two.

[Vakna]

Once more, you're not going to get real feedback on a fan forum like this. People who participate in fan forums aren't in Blizzard's target demographic. You might not like AP grinding, or Islands, or really any of the number of features that Blizzard presents its players with. And you're not alone in that opinion on this website. The issue is that there are a lot of people who don't look at the game like that. They just log in once a day to do random shit. Maybe one day they do some Islands. Another day they'll do some Emissaries. The next they'll knock out a LFR wing. For a player like this, the type of content is almost meaningless since it's not the content itself that they're enjoying. It's the fact that many different types of content is keeping them engaged in the game.

There are also the people that are so far up Blizzard's butthole they think they can't possibly be wrong.

[DemonDays]

The argument isn't that there are people who enjoy WQs or the AP grind or Warfronts and Island Expeditions. It's more that the people who are most negatively impacted by the tedious nature of these activities are far more likely to be participating in discussion forums on fan websites. This silent majority of players is whom Blizzard is attempting to cater towards which will inevitably make it seem like players on forums are at odds with the developers. I don't necessarily agree with this approach but it stands to reason that if Blizzard did not cater towards these players that fewer people would be playing. And fewer people playing isn't exactly a goal I think Blizzard sets out to achieve with their design process.

Stop reading between the lines and grasp what I am trying to say.

Why is giving us a CHOICE a bad thing? Possibly because they know no one would do them if rewards weren't tied to them?

Why can't I choose to grind mobs for rep? Why can't I choose to run dungeons? Why am I forced to do WQs and only WQs that are completely and utterly time-gated.

There's a reason this boring, low effort content feels "mandatory".

[Onikaroshi]

It's funny that you say that, then in the post above responding to me imply that these types of system don't exist. Same with Mage Towers and Challenge Modes, no player progression but people fucking loved them.

Mage tower and challenges modes actually weren't as popular as people pegged them off to be, but they did offer a tangible reward which is the point that we were trying to make, you have to give a reward or people won't do something en masse.

[Tech614]

Looking at a game like it's work is just the most wrong approach imaginable.

You yourself said you want to be competitive. Being competitive in a game basically is work. That doesn't mean it's a full time job, but that means time needs to be put into said game. If you want to play the game casually you can also do that, and then it won't be "like work" anymore. You're the one who literally on the record said you want to be competitive but also don't want to put in said work but only do it cause you have to lol. Welcome to life, if you want to be competitive at anything you have to put in work.