Warglaives of Azzinoth. A massive punch in the face.

[Raelbo]

The Warglaives of Azzinoth are the exception to this rule in that they're wearable but not transmogrifiable (don't know if that's a word).Everything you said here is actually not an argument against other classes being able to transmog Warglaives of Azzinoth but an argument against them being able to wear them at all (which is not really what you or me are arguing about).

I am well aware of that, and I have made this argument because the premise of the opposing argument is essentially: If they're wearable they should be transmogifiable, and that it is a "punch in the face" to put this exception in place for the The Warglaives. My argument simply explains the rationale behind the exception.

If you were right and RPG mechanics, lore and class fantasy were really that important, they'd have to turn them into warglaives and therefor make them unusable (which they didn't).

You're arguing false equivalence here. Also I've already addressed this point.

If lore and class fantasy was of paramount importance, then yes, they'd have to turn The Warglaives into warglaives and make them unusable for everyone except Demon Hunters. But unlike not making them transmogrifiable for a bunch of classes for whom they were never transmogrifiable to start with, taking them away from classes that could in the past equip them, and for which a number of players have invested a significant amount of time and effort to do just that, would actually have warranted the label of "punch in the face".

There is world of difference between not giving a bunch of players something that they want but never actually had, and taking away something that they worked for.

The only reason Blizzard on the other hand has given (which you somehow called into question) is that it would diminish the value of the unique reward DH got through the exclusive right to transmog these legendary items which lines up with what I said earlier.

As stated, I agree that Blizzard's stated reason is silly and poorly worded. Because really, it's about a whole lot more than just invalidating effort - there could be other ways of addressing that, for example allowing the other classes to do that quest. What Blizzard failed to state was the underlying reason why the xmog was only ever available to DH's, and that is that allowing it for other classes just doesn't make any sense and would detract from the idea of class identity.

I mean, this already exists for so many iconic items. You can wear almost any "iconic" class set from other classes of the same armor type and completely steal their appearance. As a demon hunter you can literally go around looking exactly like a rogue. Why should a weapon that was actually used by these classes in the past be the exception? Should we make Cursed Vision of Sargeras DH only as well because blindfolds are really their thing?

Really? You're just trying to use whataboutism fallacy to justify your argument.

Can DH's xmog Fangs of the Father? No. Can Hunters use Shadowmourne? No (hell, hunters can't even equip the original Warglaives even though they're swords). There is a long list of special things reserved for specific classes.

It's one thing arguing for something for a class which makes sense based on the class fantasy. I am sorry, but to me, this just really comes across as jealous whining that it's not fair that xyz class doesn't get to have something that another class has.

If imitating Illidan is the thing you want to do, then roll a DH. I can promise you right now that the idea of being one of a slew of rogues and warriors walking around equipped with a pair of warglaives is really not as you think it will be. In fact it will look outright silly.

[Niffo]

I would love to wear some more distinct transmog as a DH. Currently I only can go back to legion tiers. See where I am going?

[Jazzhands]

So if it is "super shitty" and "looks terrible" why is it a big deal if others can transmog the iconic weapon? Something doesn't compute here. You can't both insult an item while praising it as iconic and worthy of restrictions. They are losing the ability to transmog a legendary they can equip. Something that is being given to everyone else with all of the other Legendary weapons. Yet only one is being given extra restrictions.

It's super shitty and looks terrible because it's old and low resolution, on top of the fact that when used with sword animations they constantly clips through your character. A weapon can have a bad model but still be iconic because of the lore behind it.

And no, you aren't losing anything, because you never had the ability to transmog it, you can't lose something you don't have.

[Eapoe]

It's super shitty and looks terrible because it's old and low resolution, on top of the fact that when used with sword animations they constantly clips through your character. A weapon can have a bad model but still be iconic because of the lore behind it.

And no, you aren't losing anything, because you never had the ability to transmog it, you can't lose something you don't have.

Except until the recent announcement, then people did have it. People had it from the time they announced “transmog legendaries!” Players were already planning on having access to it and some probably even started building sets around it. Then Blizzard goes “nah, we’re gonna keep that for DH only.”
In a way, people did lose it because the initial announcement gave everyone the ability to transmog the things they could equip. Blizzard then took that away. So yes, players did lose something.

[Yarathir]

I would love to wear some more distinct transmog as a DH. Currently I only can go back to legion tiers. See where I am going?

So what you want is more class-based sets?

[Niffo]

So what you want is more class-based sets?

Yes. The Warglaives are currently part of the DH class fantasy. That's the only piece we can really use from older expansions that is made for DHs. I get the point but the glaives are really really just for DHs in current lore.

Blizzard then took that away. So yes, players did lose something.

You can't lose anything you don't have. If someone tells you he gives you 5 dollar and you don't get it you suddenly not lost 5$. It's your own fault that you get excited by news that haven't been fully confirmed yet.

[Nerovar]

It's one thing arguing for something for a class which makes sense based on the class fantasy. I am sorry, but to me, this just really comes across as jealous whining that it's not fair that xyz class doesn't get to have something that another class has.

If imitating Illidan is the thing you want to do, then roll a DH. I can promise you right now that the idea of being one of a slew of rogues and warriors walking around equipped with a pair of warglaives is really not as you think it will be. In fact it will look outright silly.

First of all, I don't currently play any class that would be able to transmog them (nor would I want to because it's an ugly, oversized old model). That doesn't mean I can't make an argument for still being able to do so.

Also you're fundamentally misrepresenting my point (and you have to because you know that Blizzard's reasoning is just silly so you base your argument on conjecture). It's not about an item simply being usable (in terms of what the game technically deems as usable). Warriors can use cloth items but they can't mog their plate set into cloth (and I didn't argue for that). It's about whether or not they were actually effectively used in the past. In the past rogues were running around with T6 and the Twin Blades of Azzinoth. I don't see the point why they shouldn't be able to do that once again via transmog right now just because somehow lore is more important now than it was back then.

Saying that Blizzard doesn't care about consistency in class fantasy by listing other items tied to class fantasy that are usable/moggable by other classes is not a "whataboutism". If there's no "rule" in regards to class fantasy, then you can't appeal to class fantasy for your reasoning. You're the one who actually has to make the argument for why Warglaives should be the exception to the rule. I mean, there's plenty of characters that wield warglaives besides Demon Hunters in the lore (Wardens, Spellbreakers, Sentinels, Shadow Hunters) not to mention that the Twin Blades were originally a weapon wielded by a Doomguard.
Why can Paladins and Warriors use (and transmog) Shadowmourne when it's clearly heavily centered around the class fantasies of Death Knights?

Look, if you were correct and this was all about elevating DHs at the expense of other classes, they could have just changed the Warglaives of Azzinoth to become warglaives instead of swords

If you were right and RPG mechanics, lore and class fantasy were really that important, they'd have to turn them into warglaives

If lore and class fantasy was of paramount importance, then yes, they'd have to turn The Warglaives into warglaives and make them unusable for everyone except Demon Hunters. But unlike not making them transmogrifiable for a bunch of classes for whom they were never transmogrifiable to start with, taking them away from classes that could in the past equip them, and for which a number of players have invested a significant amount of time and effort to do just that, would actually have warranted the label of "punch in the face".

Interesting, when I made the point about Blizzard's actual reasoning (i.e. their stated goal), you presented this as a false dichotomy:
Blizzard wants to elevate Demon Hunters at the expense of other classes
-> Blizzard must turn the item into Warglaives for this to be true
-> They didn't therefor this can't be their true reasoning

Whereas when it comes to your point about the importance of lore, the same logic doesn't apply and the situation is more complicated.

There is world of difference between not giving a bunch of players something that they want but never actually had, and taking away something that they worked for.

No argument there.


Look, I honestly think (probably as much as you do) that this is a stupid debate. In hindsight, Blizzard probably should have made a HD reskin that is exclusive to Demon Hunters (like they did with Ashbringer for Paladins and Thunderfury for Outlaw rogues) and no one would have complained if Rogues/Warriors were able to transmog Illidan's glaives. But they obviously don't really plan ahead with these kinds of decisions.

[Yarathir]

Yes. The Warglaives are currently part of the DH class fantasy. That's the only piece we can really use from older expansions that is made for DHs. I get the point but the glaives are really really just for DHs in current lore.



You can't lose anything you don't have. If someone tells you he gives you 5 dollar and you don't get it you suddenly not lost 5$. It's your own fault that you get excited by news that haven't been fully confirmed yet.

Then I think the solution is to want more class sets, not an inconsistency to Blizzard's own rules on every other legendary weapon, tbh. But then again, I haven't transmogged the Warglaives of Azzinoth for a moment after unlocking the transmog, so I guess I don't feel as attached to them.

I definitely want more class sets and more sensible, stylish glaives, though. I feel you there. Due to DHs being introduced in Legion and class sets being retired as a concept (at least for some time) after Legion, there's only two leveling sets, three raid sets and a class order hall set to be used by them, compared to other classes that have had several expansions of tiers now. I really hope Shadowlands brings back class sets after the first tier. (which is already confirmed to not have class sets, sadly)

I also want more good looking glaives. How is it that we don't have a HD version of the simple but good looking classic elven glaives? Instead, we got protoss spaceships and krolusk skulls to hold in our hands and attack people with. The only good glaive introduced in BfA to my knowledge is the Darkshore night elf one, and that one is alliance-only. Everything has to be themed in a painfully stereotypical fashion after the directly relevant content, so I expect that we'll get angelic glaives in Bastion, undead glaives in Maldraxxus, foresty glaives in Ardenweald and vampiric glaives in Revendreth and nothing really with its own identity separate from the zones we get them from.

[rhorle]

You can't lose anything you don't have. If someone tells you he gives you 5 dollar and you don't get it you suddenly not lost 5$. It's your own fault that you get excited by news that haven't been fully confirmed yet.

Yes you did lose that $5. Because you are no longer being given it like it was implied. Also everyone else in the game is being given legendaries based on who can start the quest and equip the weapon type. Warglaive owners are losing out on the chance to transmog their weapons because it is being made a Demon Hunter exclusive despite still being able to be obtained by more then Demon Hunters.

[Niffo]

Yes you did lose that $5. Because you are no longer being given it like it was implied. Also everyone else in the game is being given legendaries based on who can start the quest and equip the weapon type. Warglaive owners are losing out on the chance to transmog their weapons because it is being made a Demon Hunter exclusive despite still being able to be obtained by more then Demon Hunters.

Well thats a state of mind really, I have been thought that if you don't receive the $5 dollar in your hand you shouldn't count on it. Any way, I get your point but as this is a DH class weapon you should also understand why they made it exclusive to DHs.

I also want more good looking glaives. How is it that we don't have a HD version of the simple but good looking classic elven glaives? Instead, we got protoss spaceships and krolusk skulls to hold in our hands and attack people with. The only good glaive introduced in BfA to my knowledge is the Darkshore night elf one, and that one is alliance-only. Everything has to be themed in a painfully stereotypical fashion after the directly relevant content, so I expect that we'll get angelic glaives in Bastion, undead glaives in Maldraxxus, foresty glaives in Ardenweald and vampiric glaives in Revendreth and nothing really with its own identity separate from the zones we get them from.

Hahaha yeah the spaceship glaive! I hope so too!! Would love more customisation to DHs as well, besides gear a option to change meta would be great as well.

[rhorle]

Well thats a state of mind really, I have been thought that if you don't receive the $5 dollar in your hand you shouldn't count on it. Any way, I get your point but as this is a DH class weapon you should also understand why they made it exclusive to DHs.

But it isn't exclusive to demon hunters. The actual item that drops can still be equipped by more then Demon Hunters. It is only fair that those who can equip the item get to use it for transmogs. Just like every other legendary.

[Niffo]

But it isn't exclusive to demon hunters. The actual item that drops can still be equipped by more then Demon Hunters. It is only fair that those who can equip the item get to use it for transmogs. Just like every other legendary.

I know! But warglaives are like the only class fantasy thing we have from older expansions, it being exclusive to DHs gives us something different. Therefore I fully understand Blizzards choice. I personally don't care if other classes would be able to transmog it. But I do understand on why they made this choice.

[Sencha]

Such drama for a transmog lol. Get a life.

[Yarathir]

Such drama for a transmog lol. Get a life.

Thankfully you are setting a good example by spending your own time in a far better way.

[Raelbo]

That doesn't mean I can't make an argument for still being able to do so.

Also you're fundamentally misrepresenting my point (and you have to because you know that Blizzard's reasoning is just silly so you base your argument on conjecture).

I am not sure exactly how I am misrepresenting your argument. Yes I have used conjecture to flesh out the reasoning behind the decision that led to Blizzard's stated reasoning, and as it so happens, it is relevant to the discussion. And please, by all means, if you disagree with my conjecture then feel free to point out where you think it is flawed.

It's not about an item simply being usable (in terms of what the game technically deems as usable). Warriors can use cloth items but they can't mog their plate set into cloth (and I didn't argue for that). It's about whether or not they were actually effectively used in the past. In the past rogues were running around with T6 and the Twin Blades of Azzinoth. I don't see the point why they shouldn't be able to do that once again via transmog right now just because somehow lore is more important now than it was back then.

First and foremost: I never said that "lore is more important now than it was back then". Nor did I imply it.
Secondly, Rogues can still run around with the Twin Blades of Azzinoth equipped.

What I have argued is that the context has changed. What I have argued is that just because in the context of T6 - a context in which DHs were not available as a player class, and transmog hadn't been invented - Blizzard thought is was a good idea for rogues to be able to use The Warglaives, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to allow rogues to transmog them in a the context of a game world where DHs are now a player class.

Also, it's funny that you should bring up the example of the warrior being able to use cloth gear but not transmog it. It actually makes The Warglaives "exception" consistent. We had a shaman in our guild back during TBC who had a penchant for wearing cloth gear on the basis that it had better stats (coincidentally he still has a gripe about the fact that his "aggro reset" was to die and use reincarnation :P). He too would not be able to transmog into any of the T6 cloth gear that he used (very effectively) back in the day.

Saying that Blizzard doesn't care about consistency in class fantasy by listing other items tied to class fantasy that are usable/moggable by other classes is not a "whataboutism".

To be fair, you never said that Blizzard doesn't care about class fantasy. And while finding some examples of moggable items that don't fit with class fantasy might support such an argument, it doesn't really prove it either. You'd need a significantly stronger argument.

If there's no "rule" in regards to class fantasy, then you can't appeal to class fantasy for your reasoning.

The rule is simple: Blizzard has a vision for each of it's classes. That vision is different for every class. There is no authoritive set of rules that can adequately define what exactly fits any given class, because that would require constraining human imagination. But that doesn't mean that the artist (Blizzard) can't judge each and every thing against their vision.

I mean, seriously, are you actually denying that warglaives are not part of the DH class fantasy?

You're the one who actually has to make the argument for why Warglaives should be the exception to the rule.

My argument is pretty clear. You even labeled it "conjecture".

I mean, there's plenty of characters that wield warglaives besides Demon Hunters in the lore (Wardens, Spellbreakers, Sentinels, Shadow Hunters) not to mention that the Twin Blades were originally a weapon wielded by a Doomguard.

Although I'd say that most of the weapons used by those NPC classes look pretty distinct from warglaives, some of them are probably close enough to qualify. I guess if Blizzard ever decide to implement any of these as playable classes, maybe they too would be elligible to use warglaives

Why can Paladins and Warriors use (and transmog) Shadowmourne when it's clearly heavily centered around the class fantasies of Death Knights?

More whataboutism.

That being said, I'd say the equivalence is false. The applicable part of the class fantasy has to do which types of weapons each class has proficiency in. Yes, Shadowmourne is clearly a weapon created for Death Knights. But it is still basically an axe and nothing in the lore ever suggested any reason why a class proficient in the use of axes shouldn't be able to wield it.

In the case of the Warglaives, the only class that has proficiency in that type of weapon is the DH. It makes no more sense to make any warglaive transmog (including The Warglaives) available to class which cannot use warglaives than to do so for any other transmog involving a weapon in which the class has no proficiency.

Interesting, when I made the point about Blizzard's actual reasoning (i.e. their stated goal), you presented this as a false dichotomy:
Blizzard wants to elevate Demon Hunters at the expense of other classes
-> Blizzard must turn the item into Warglaives for this to be true
-> They didn't therefor this can't be their true reasoning

Whereas when it comes to your point about the importance of lore, the same logic doesn't apply and the situation is more complicated.

Or, you know, maybe stop trying to misrepresent what I actually said?

I was pretty clear:

Blizzard left the original Warglaives of Azzinoth as sword class of weapon - despite the fact that it doesn't fit the class fantasy - so as not to take something away from players who had put in time/effort/emotional investment to obtain it.

The same consideration is not necessary for the decision regarding transmogrification because no one ever had that in the first place therefore there is nothing to take away.

I can totally sympathise with the player who ran BT 50 times to get The Warglaives on his rogue so that he can equip them when the mood strikes. Given that The Warglaives were never moggable, there are no rogues who ran BT 50 times to get The Warglaives so that they could transmog them. Therefore I have no reason to sympathise for the current complaint on that basis.

Simply put:

Not taking away something earned by players (equippable Level 70 legendary weapons) > Class Fantasy Considerations > Giving something new to players just because they want it (transmoggrifying said legendary)

Look, I honestly think (probably as much as you do) that this is a stupid debate. In hindsight, Blizzard probably should have made a HD reskin that is exclusive to Demon Hunters (like they did with Ashbringer for Paladins and Thunderfury for Outlaw rogues) and no one would have complained if Rogues/Warriors were able to transmog Illidan's glaives. But they obviously don't really plan ahead with these kinds of decisions.

Well I certainly think that the OP's complaint is puerile and whiny. Could Blizzard have handled it in another way? Sure. There are many potential options that would not invalidate the DH reward while still allowing other classes to mog The Warglaives. But I do get why they would rather just keep it DH exclusive, and IMO I just don't see it being about favouritism at all. There really is a much simpler explanation: That it fits into their vision of Illidan, demon hunters and the Illidari.

I guess if the outcry is loud enough they'll back down. I mean what real choice will they have? But I do feel that the game overall would be poorer for it, especially if this ends up setting a precedent. Don't get me wrong, I am all for Blizzard changing their minds due to player objections, but only when those objections are rational and reasonable. In this case I feel the complaint is frivoulous and whiny, but I guess each person is entitled to their opinion on which issues matter to them.

[Bodakane]

Your sig makes this really funny to me.

As a person that has hated Trump for many years before his presidency but doesn't suffer from TDS, I agree! lol

Yeah, whose the president of the US and Blizzard not letting warglaives be transmogged are both totally equally important.

[Yarathir]

Yeah, whose the president of the US and Blizzard not letting warglaives be transmogged are both totally equally important.

Neither are important in the grand scheme compared to starving African children.

Go be an adult and care about real problems.

[Bodakane]

Neither are important in the grand scheme compared to starving African children.

Go be an adult and care about real problems.

Riiiiiight. Like I said, proving my point every time you post.

[Yarathir]

Riiiiiight. Like I said, proving my point every time you post.

"y-you're just proving my point by trivializing the things that matter to me!"

[thilicen]

I am honestly upset about this.

And if you don't see a problem with that I can only feel sad for you.