the account-wide essences paradox

[Biomega]

I definitely have been playing alts less than ever before, and it's in large part due to Essences - but the rest of BFA doesn't help either.

I used to be a prolific alt player since vanilla, but now I've just focused on one main and barely played any alts at all. It just feels like too much "work"; I play alts to do fun stuff, if they're gated by chores I'd rather not play at all.

[munkeyinorbit]

In my opinion, it doesn’t make sense in retail WoW to push people towards content they don’t enjoy. It will not make them play the game more in the long run.

Then don't play it. You still don't deserve gear that you didn't earn.

[Flarelaine]

That's fair. But considering that if a player already has done the thematic rep grind on their main, what harm does it do to allow a champion-like system for alts? This, I believe, is what people are generally asking for. Players like yourself get what you want, but players who invest in or enjoy alts get what they want. Win/Win.

The same applies to any of the more ridiculous grinds in WoW. Essences, pathfinder, whatever. This is not asking for something for for free. It's simply asking for a more reasonable relaxing of these types of excessive grinds when the primary function of the grind has already been satisfied.

Championing is really a different problem. As for essences, I could support what has been suggested by someone before - maybe in another thread? - that rank 4 essences would unlock account-wide rank 3 versions. Not the cutting edge, but still saving a lot of trouble.

[Dakara]

Blizzard says that if they made essences account-wide, then players would play less.

Players say that if Blizzard made essences account-wide, then they would play more.

who is right? who is wrong?
<snip>

Personally I play less in BFA than I have in previous expansions. I also played Legion less than the expansions before it. Why? Because I enjoy alts. Certain players love to complain that there's "nothing to do in WOW" when what they really mean is "there's nothing I enjoy to do in WOW.

Again, I enjoy alts. Some people enjoy Pet Battles, or PvP, or Transmog farming, or Rare hunting, or pushing M+ etc etc etc
What I doubt very many people enjoy, is constant power grinds, and that's what's killed Alts for me... so I've stopped playing them (mostly).

[oplawlz]

Personally I play less in BFA than I have in previous expansions. I also played Legion less than the expansions before it. Why? Because I enjoy alts. Certain players love to complain that there's "nothing to do in WOW" when what they really mean is "there's nothing I enjoy to do in WOW.

Again, I enjoy alts. Some people enjoy Pet Battles, or PvP, or Transmog farming, or Rare hunting, or pushing M+ etc etc etc
What I doubt very many people enjoy, is constant power grinds, and that's what's killed Alts for me... so I've stopped playing them (mostly).

The funny thing is those of us who enjoy alts and can reasonably keep them at a raid-worthy (i.e. able to enter raids, not getting raid gear for free) level power then tend to do lots of those other things. I know I'm not going to try to hunt achievements or transmogs if I'm essentially locked to one toon.

[Jester Joe]

Because you are getting another essence? Your first character already used the first.

It's not "another essence" though. It's the same exact one, just for another character.

And when they pull stupid things like time gating one of the strongest ones behind 3 dailies a day, it just gets irritating for people like me who already have rank 4 Lucid Dreams on their main, and now 3 more rank 3 Lucid dreams.

I don't see how that's justifiable at all or why anyone thinks that's "fun". In my opinion and from what I've seen, most the people who are defending the current system just don't care about alts anyway so it gets to a point of "why do you care then if we get it faster?"

[Rinnegan2]

If you haven't done the content you are not entitled to the rewards. It is pretty straight forward.

1. is content A intended for everyone? [True]
2. has content A been completed on one character? [True]

if 1. and 2. are [True] then the reward of content A has to be account-wide.
if 1. is [False] then the reward has to be character specific, because it is a status symbol. (status symbols are the essence of MMOs)

[DemonDays]

Blizzard is right from a business perspective. And since their business model relies on stretching and squeezing as much time /played as possible, with the hope of pushing people over the edge of one month of sub into two, every little thing that takes more time to complete equates to potential profit.

But Blizzard is also wrong from a player enjoyment perspective. The GCD slow down resulting in less satisfying moment to moment gameplay. The needless delay of flight to try and force "immersion" and their version of the "best" way to experience the content. The endless stream of rep grinds..... All of this costs the game in terms of enjoyability.

Some of that is simply the nature of MMORPGs. But I really think that it's often pushed a little too far in the name of checking boxes in a spreadsheet somewhere, causing what might otherwise be an enjoyable investment of time and effort to become tedious and fatigue-inducing.

Essences being character specific falls into the latter. Things like pathfinder still being required in outdated expansions is another good example. The lack of PVP vendors is another. Etc etc etc, ad nauseam.

I feel like Blizzard has lost touch with what made their games truly fun and enjoyable. Design by spreadsheet is the rule these days, and you can feel the life being sucked out of the game every time they "prune" something, or add more filler.

This is the most intelligent reply in this thread. I'm only replying to it so that it gets more visibility.


Remember when the gear was the only wall to progression besides maybe an attunement quest? Remember when rep grinds were there but they added valued extras or cosmetics, instead of being "mandatory". Remember when people played alts because they were fun and you only had to get gear to play them?

If you look at 8.3 you have - gear, essences, azerite, AP grind, corruption, rep grinds, legendary cloak grind, visions.

That's 8 grinds that feel kinda mandatory. Even playing 1 character feels like a job.

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It's not "another essence" though. It's the same exact one, just for another character.

And when they pull stupid things like time gating one of the strongest ones behind 3 dailies a day, it just gets irritating for people like me who already have rank 4 Lucid Dreams on their main, and now 3 more rank 3 Lucid dreams.

I don't see how that's justifiable at all or why anyone thinks that's "fun". In my opinion and from what I've seen, most the people who are defending the current system just don't care about alts anyway so it gets to a point of "why do you care then if we get it faster?"

Exactly. It's an asinine level of grind needed and to top it all off - it's still time-gated.

Even a returning player can't get Rank 3 Lucid dreams for 3-4 weeks. If you miss a day? Add a day.

[SirCowdog]

Championing is really a different problem. As for essences, I could support what has been suggested by someone before - maybe in another thread? - that rank 4 essences would unlock account-wide rank 3 versions. Not the cutting edge, but still saving a lot of trouble.

Hmm....I don't know that requiring rank 4(which is purely prestige and appearance) should be required to make alt-grinding more palatable. Rather, I would like a system where ANY level of essence would reduce the requirements of re-acquiring the same essence on at alt. Not eliminate it, or make it a simple gold purchase, but simply cut the time it takes by maybe half, or something along those lines.

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Even playing 1 character feels like a job.

That right there sums things up nicely, I think.

I think Blizzard has really lost sight of how to make the game enjoyable.

[DemonDays]

Hmm....I don't know that requiring rank 4(which is purely prestige and appearance) should be required to make alt-grinding more palatable. Rather, I would like a system where ANY level of essence would reduce the requirements of re-acquiring the same essence on at alt. Not eliminate it, or make it a simple gold purchase, but simply cut the time it takes by maybe half, or something along those lines.

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That right there sums things up nicely, I think.

I think Blizzard has really lost sight of how to make the game enjoyable.

I mean when you objectively look at the content delivered in the last 6 content patches for WoW more than 50% of it is just more WQs and more reps. 8.3 re-uses the Invasions system, again. Then it front loads 2 more "mandatory" grinds and a bunch of WQs and reps. They've completely lost sight of what makes the game fun or they just don't care to put the effort in anymore.

Another thing compounding the issue is that you used to be able to ignore the grind and mediocre content because the game play loop was top notch. Now though? They can't even get that right.



The fix is so simple you have to ask yourself. Are they stupid? Because it they aren't stupid then they're doing it maliciously to milk their own player base. This is the obvious answer. They know their content is so lacking they need a way to keep you "engaged".

• Reduce requirements to get them normally and remove the time-gating.
• Add an Essence vendor that uses the new 8.3 currency.

Done.

[Kaver]

Then don't play it. You still don't deserve gear that you didn't earn.

I'm not talking about gear. I'm a mythic raider and I push +20 keys... I earn every piece of gear that I get.

[SirCowdog]

I mean when you objectively look at the content delivered in the last 6 content patches for WoW more than 50% of it is just more WQs and more reps. 8.3 re-uses the Invasions system, again. Then it front loads 2 more "mandatory" grinds and a bunch of WQs and reps. They've completely lost sight of what makes the game fun or they just don't care to put the effort in anymore.

Another thing compounding the issue is that you used to be able to ignore the grind and mediocre content because the game play loop was top notch. Now though? They can't even get that right.



The fix is so simple you have to ask yourself. Are they stupid? Because it they aren't stupid then they're doing it maliciously to milk their own player base. This is the obvious answer. They know their content is so lacking they need a way to keep you "engaged".

• Reduce requirements to get them normally and remove the time-gating.
• Add an Essence vendor that uses the new 8.3 currency.

Done.

Given Blizzard's stated intent of moving more into the mobile market, and the supposed "Fact" that all their devs are playing mobile games, I suspect that you have your explanation for why these systems are getting more and more simplistic, and more repetitive. Also, why they've lost focus of what made WoW good originally.

Again, maybe that's just tinfoil hat theory. But it at least seems plausible.

[munkeyinorbit]

1. is content A intended for everyone? [True]
2. has content A been completed on one character? [True]

if 1. and 2. are [True] then the reward of content A has to be account-wide.
if 1. is [False] then the reward has to be character specific, because it is a status symbol. (status symbols are the essence of MMOs)

Then why isn't all gear account wide. There is no content not designed for everyone bar class restrictions. If you have cleared mythic raids and got all the gear, why shouldn't that gear be able to be used by your Alts? This is what you are saying when you think esscences should be account wide.

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I'm not talking about gear. I'm a mythic raider and I push +20 keys... I earn every piece of gear that I get.

But your Alts don't deserve it unless they also push 20+ keys. Saying otherwise is like saying all of your main warrior gear from mythic raids should be able to be used by your alt paladin 3v3n though it dinged 120 17 minutes ago.

[Flarelaine]

It's not "another essence" though. It's the same exact one, just for another character.

And when they pull stupid things like time gating one of the strongest ones behind 3 dailies a day, it just gets irritating for people like me who already have rank 4 Lucid Dreams on their main, and now 3 more rank 3 Lucid dreams.

I don't see how that's justifiable at all or why anyone thinks that's "fun". In my opinion and from what I've seen, most the people who are defending the current system just don't care about alts anyway so it gets to a point of "why do you care then if we get it faster?"

WoW is still notionally an RPG. I could never explain within the lore how unlocking a mount on my paladin suddenly allows my mage to ride it... and this applies to all account-wide unlock, really.

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Hmm....I don't know that requiring rank 4(which is purely prestige and appearance) should be required to make alt-grinding more palatable. Rather, I would like a system where ANY level of essence would reduce the requirements of re-acquiring the same essence on at alt. Not eliminate it, or make it a simple gold purchase, but simply cut the time it takes by maybe half, or something along those lines.

I would be very much behind a system like reputations in Pandaria, but the various requirements of essence acquisition would make this one a headache.

[WowIsDead64]

Blizzard says that if they made essences account-wide, then players would play less.

Players say that if Blizzard made essences account-wide, then they would play more.

who is right? who is wrong?

I think it depends on the type of content. essences are a form of content.
the following framework can be used to decide what should and what shouldn't be account-wide in the future:


I would argue, that essences are a form of content that is intended for everyone, in which case they should be made account-wide.

what do you think?

update:

hardcore player = a player who completes difficult content, that isn't intended for everyone

1. the main of a hardcore player, who can overcome difficult content, should have access to the best gear and to unique, character-specific status symbols (cosmetics).
2. the alt of a hardcore player and the main of a casual player are usually at the same stage, where they try to complete difficult content together.
3. right now - because of essences not being account-wide - hardcore players don't have alts, which means casuals have way less people/groups to play with.

the main reason for WoW's success over the years:

I play another new game, I've bought on Steam, now. It's content is a little bit monotonous, but I clearly see, what motivations to continue playing this game I have.

There are two kinds of content: one-time and repetitive.

1) Repetitive content is usually driven by some sort of task or even puzzle, you need to solve. This is the only place, where RNG is tolerable. Because it changes input variables of this task and therefore allows you to play this game differently.

I usually use poker as great example of such content. You have random cards and you have to deal with them somewhat. Your motivation - is to try to play better this time.

2) One-time content. When it's done, you no longer want to do it again. And it's usually driven by following things:

a) Exploration. Even if I do the same things over and over again, when I get rewards, I can spend them on unlocking some new features. Therefore interest to try all that new features drives my motivation to continue playing this game. When I will see them all, it won't be interesting for me to do all the same things again.
b) Story. Not important part for me, cuz game isn't book or movie. I should play it, not read or watch. If game is story driven, then it's usually easier to play it on YouTube. And of course what is seen, can't be unseen. Story isn't interesting for the second time.
c) Achievements. It's usually about "Yeah, game is monotonous, but I just want to complete X, Y, Z to feel satisfied". Or "I just want to do this thing better, than before, therefore I'll try it again".
d) Customization. Something similar to Achievements, but purely playstyle changing or even cosmetic. I want to try this talents, then I want to try that ones. It's racing game? First I want to paint my car blue. Then I want to try red. Etc.

So. To what category things like rep grinds, AP grinds, essence grinds fall? To repeatable or one-time? Sure, they're one-time. And therefore they should be account-wide. Because it's player, who plays the game - not character. Player just can't forget everything and start from scratch. Bring the player, not content©.

Problem is - Blizzard treat some kinds of content as some sorts of character progression, similar to gearing for example. So, when we say, that we want them account-wide, they usually treat it as "Send epics on my alt's mail, cuz I've earned them on my main" and ask that "Why do you need alt, if you don't want to play it?" question. But they don't understand, that it's not the same. And there are other reasons to play alts, than just do all grinds again, again and again. It's usually about things, mentioned above. About exploration, trying new things, playing game a little bit differently, completing "Play all classes/specs" achievement. So, all that grinds become restrictions on available content - not bring more content to us.

[Niwes]

i like to play raids.
i like to play dungeons.
i like a bit of a challenge.
i like playing alts. i like it a lot, because i am bored of my „main“ class after a few months.

that said:

this leads to a mindset, where you wanna get alts relatively fast rdy, to raid (at least) heroic (or first few mythic bosses) on a somewhat competitive level. in older xpacs this was possible. but in newer xpacs, with essences, ap and whatever, not so.

the fact that this is the case and i can switch my main not relatively fast, is HEAVILY driving me away of the game.

i am the same oppinion as op. once done with a character, it should be account wide. i have no fun in grinding shit a thousand times again. i have fun playing the contents (raids and dungeons or even pvp) of the game.

if you have one main and for the rest of your life, or at least xpac, just playing this char, well then you are fine and new xpacs are made for you.

if you are like me, you have not that much fun in wow these days.

[WowIsDead64]

i like to play raids.
i like to play dungeons.
i like a bit of a challenge.
i like playing alts. i like it a lot, because i am bored of my „main“ class after a few months.

that said:

this leads to a mindset, where you wanna get alts relatively fast rdy, to raid (at least) heroic (or first few mythic bosses) on a somewhat competitive level. in older xpacs this was possible. but in newer xpacs, with essences, ap and whatever, not so.

the fact that this is the case and i can switch my main not relatively fast, is HEAVILY driving me away of the game.

i am the same oppinion as op. once done with a character, it should be account wide. i have no fun in grinding shit a thousand times again. i have fun playing the contents (raids and dungeons or even pvp) of the game.

if you have one main and for the rest of your life, or at least xpac, just playing this char, well then you are fine and new xpacs are made for you.

if you are like me, you have not that much fun in wow these days.

Blizzard don't tell it directly, but they see alts as a problem. They see them as the way to bypass their time-gates, that are intended to limit amount of content/rewards, available to your character. You have only one emissary on your main, but you have extra one on your alt. This can also be seen as some sort of unfair advantage vs players, who want to play one character only. Simple example? Two characters = two chances to get rare mount. This is also technical problem for Blizzard, as they don't want you to hit 50 characters cap and ask for even more character slots.

They tried this back in Draenor. Many players started to level 10..20..50 characters to get as much gold, as possible. Blizzard just think, that it's not healthy for their game.

But they also don't want to make literally everything account-wide (i.e. all lockouts and CDs) to solve this problem. As some players use alts, when they run out of content. And there is never too much content. Even with all that rep/AP grinds.

Result - they allow alts, but want to restrict them to may be 1-2. 3 max.

[Kaver]

But your Alts don't deserve it unless they also push 20+ keys. Saying otherwise is like saying all of your main warrior gear from mythic raids should be able to be used by your alt paladin 3v3n though it dinged 120 17 minutes ago.

I don't think you understand.

It's not about getting "free things" on your alts.

It's about the acquisition method.

I don't mind putting in effort on alts to get gear etc. however, I would prefer to be able to put effort into content that I enjoy.

Having to grind battlegrounds on alts (which are not engaging at all and require no skill) to be able to efficiently do high-end m+ is bad game design in my opinion. Personally, I think battlegrounds is the most shit content. They are so freaking boring. I would rather kill mythic Aszhara 10 times than do one battleground.

When Blizzard pushes people towards content that they don't enjoy, it will just result in those people playing the game less. It's a lose-lose situation.

[Rinnegan2]

Then why isn't all gear account wide. There is no content not designed for everyone bar class restrictions. If you have cleared mythic raids and got all the gear, why shouldn't that gear be able to be used by your Alts? This is what you are saying when you think esscences should be account wide.

the gear you get from completing content that is intended for everyone is only marginally better than the 410 item level catch-up gear, which is, in fact, account-wide.

every reward that comes from content that isn't intended for everyone (1400 arena rating or higher, mythic+7 or higher, heroic raiding or higher) should obviously not be account-wide.

[SirCowdog]

WoW is still notionally an RPG. I could never explain within the lore how unlocking a mount on my paladin suddenly allows my mage to ride it... and this applies to all account-wide unlock, really.

I know you weren't replying to me on this part, but:

Does the lore explain how the big bads of each raid are magically alive each week, with new loot every time? Or how mounts pop out of nowhere, not even taking up space in a backpack, or needing to be fed?

There are certain times where the 4th wall of the RPG has to make way for game mechanics, because at the end of the day it's also a game. Account-wide stuff falls under that, IMO, largely because the game is being played by a human being behind the keyboard(Most of the time. Cats and bots don't count). And while it's certainly true that some players enjoy the full investment of time in each and every character they have, I don't think that needs to be enforced for every player.

I would be very much behind a system like reputations in Pandaria, but the various requirements of essence acquisition would make this one a headache.

Well, essences are going away next expansion anyway, so it's not that big of a deal. But if we get some new iteration of them, I would REALLY hope that more consideration is put into them and how alts fit into the equation.