Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Shadowferal]

[Benggaul]

No, not in the slightest, many of those "Bernie Bros" would have supported Clinton if she hadn't pulled DWS into her campaign after what she had pulled or many of the other stuff. And if you notice, many of those "Bernie Bros" held their nose and voted for her anyways even after all of that and in greater numbers than the "Beta Males for Hillary" did after she lost her primary.

I did not say "Bernie Bros". I specifically said the "Bernie or Bust" people, who were the ones who either did not vote or voted for Trump once Bernie got ousted (and threaten to do so again). There is a difference, which is why I was careful in saying that it was that specific subset of Bernie supporters and not all (or even most).

A big problem in the US is that it's a two-party system where each party contains many wildly different (and oft conflicting) set of values and ideas. AOC recently dismissed Biden by saying that they wouldn't be in the same party in any other country - It's completely true. The Democrats are at least 3 different parties in one now. The US parties just become alliances of groups with wildly conflicting views.

IMO it's quite reasonable under that situation for voters to say "My candidate or bust" as the candidates are so far apart in their beliefs. If you take out political loyalty and beating Trump (which is the only thing holding the Dems together at the moment) then why should a big Bernie supporter want to vote for Biden?

I don't dispute the first part but argue that the second part--where we ARE trying to get rid of Trump so we can at least try to put things in order and then get back on a progressive path--is why the first part is not applicable in this instance.

If you're a Bernie supporter you should still be trying to oust Trump even if Bernie loses since Trump is the most idealogically and politically opposed to Bernie. We can argue about "how much worse" Biden or the other candidates are and there are points for either side, but what is inarguable is that Trump is worse than all of them and that trying to claw our way back from his train wreck of an administration should take priority.

[Gestopft]

The problem is, the social issues are moral stands. It's hard to tell the Democratic establishment to just give up on rights arguments because the average American voter doesn't want to hear about "other" people. That's what happened during Civil Rights, and the Democratic party lost the South forever because of it. Should we have not done it then to consolidate that middle voter who thought blacks should still be segregated and unequal?

I guess my basic point is that I think economic populism can work, or at least not be a hindrance, in Red States, but being socially liberal won't. If the DNC wants a sustainable majority, it's going to require some members that aren't as socially liberal, but being 'pro-corporate' shouldn't a requirement the way the DNC seems to prefer.

The history of this rightward shift in the U.S. is literally historical in nature. The USSR was actually antagonistic, something that can't be denied, and by virtue of them being left wing on paper, it pushed the politics of this country right. Even Civil Rights was seen by many in this country as a Communist plot to dilute American power.

And fast-forwarding to today, it's apparent that a) the current consensus has failed, and b) that the younger generations are clearly ready to move the country to the left. Even GoP voters are abandoning the market dogmatism that has defined that party for so long. The very election of Trump, I think, is a flashing warning sign that the country is ready for something different. And if Democrats fail to realize this, it will cost them.

The Soviet Union is not in the political memory of Millennials. The Great Recession is. Decades of wage stagnation is. The Iraq War is. Massive costs of healthcare, education, and housing are. The GoP is sitting on a massive generation time bomb, and the DNC doesn't seem to want to seize the opportunity.

[Omega10]

How is that corrupt? If both those areas are to elect a candidate to represent them how else would they do it so its not "corrupt" as you call it? isnt majority the way to go? Both have the majority in the areas they are running. If the 5001 people would overrule the 500001 people then that would be corrupt.

11 groups of people. the first 10 groups each has 5,000 people, the last group has 500,000 people

the last group has 10x the number of people of the first 10 groups.
the first 10 groups get 10x the votes of the last one

You call this fair?

Or, to answer your question, the 5,001 people ARE overruling the 500,001 people. Well it would take 10,002 people to overrule the 500,001.

[Psygon]

That last debate was a sad display. But at least they didn't go off into Spanish gibberish like previous candidates, pandering to their Latino special interests.

I would vote for a strong woman but chump change like Warren and Amy are weak.

Biden looks like he's barely there. Sanders and Mayor Pete are your only hope.

- Independent voters, no partisan garbage extremists allowed

[JohnBrown1917]

That last debate was a sad display. But at least they didn't go off into Spanish gibberish like previous candidates, pandering to their Latino special interests.

I would vote for a strong woman but chump change like Warren and Amy are weak.

Biden looks like he's barely there. Sanders and Mayor Pete are your only hope.

- Independent voters, no partisan garbage extremists allowed

Ah, yes, the same guy who worked for McKinsey and who wants to sent troops to mexico. He is perfect for US interests.
...No sarcasm, its just that US interests tend to be a negative for the average American and the rest of the world.

[Omega10]

@Rochana

You baboons can support whoever you want. Not what I was calling you out on at all but i'm not surprised it's what you all glommed onto. Bernie's gonna be dog shit when it comes to actually being a president who can push through his policy advancements and 90% of what he can do using his powers as president most of the other candidates are going to do as well. Obama couldn't even push through a government option over blue dog democrats. Bernie's shit's gonna be dead in the water because he's showing he'll love his bully pullpit but have all the skills to negotiate with congress as a wet paper towel has to put out a high rise fire.


I'm talking about your stupid wa wa my guy lost he should run 3rd party bit. That will objectively only help Trump and if you're fine with providing Trump the single greatest advantage you can possibly given because you're that dumb well I guess that's your right. However, don't pretend that level of stupidity has anything to do with not "supporting" someone who doesn't care about them when you're asking for the single greatest thing the person who cares about you the least needs to get an easy win. Don't support the DNC candidate if it's not Bernie, that is your insanely derpy right to shoot yourself in the foot by giving Trump an extra leg up. But don't double down on your stupidity by thinking him running 3rd party is anything but supporting Trump in practice.

Since you hate me just as much as Trump supporters do, why should I vote for your candidate?

In France, the Trump equivalent was defeated by Macron. Macron seems like he is far more dangerous than Le Pen ever would be. Right wing (yellow vests) and left wing (unionists) working class people have joined together in a quite long major protest against his policies.

According to Skroe and Cubby, Biden should be elected to follow the same path with similar significant increases in defense spending, and similar significant cuts to Medicare and Social Security. If we are lucky, this would at least unite left and right in a fairly short period of time.

The libertarian party has taken over the US left as an anti-war party. The democrats are not going to be voting through any kind of government social programs such as Medicare for All anyways, so this is not an advantage that democrats have over libertarians. And Obama cracked down hard on whistle blowers and loosened up regulations so that fracking could take off in this country. Once again no reason to prefer democrats to libertarians.

I have resigned myself to Trump winning reelection. And I see no reason to try to get Biden to replace him. Biden could very well be worse.

[shimerra]

Since you hate me just as much as Trump supporters do, why should I vote for your candidate?

In France, the Trump equivalent was defeated by Macron. Macron seems like he is far more dangerous than Le Pen ever would be. Right wing (yellow vests) and left wing (unionists) working class people have joined together in a quite long major protest against his policies.

According to Skroe and Cubby, Biden should be elected to follow the same path with similar significant increases in defense spending, and similar significant cuts to Medicare and Social Security. If we are lucky, this would at least unite left and right in a fairly short period of time.

The libertarian party has taken over the US left as an anti-war party. The democrats are not going to be voting through any kind of government social programs such as Medicare for All anyways, so this is not an advantage that democrats have over libertarians. And Obama cracked down hard on whistle blowers and loosened up regulations so that fracking could take off in this country. Once again no reason to prefer democrats to libertarians.

I have resigned myself to Trump winning reelection. And I see no reason to try to get Biden to replace him. Biden could very well be worse.

Who said I hate you? Also who said Biden is my candidate? I actually supported Bernie over Hillary but I wasn't stupid enough to stamp and scream and cry when Bernie lost because of his mistakes/not having enough support. I'll say it again Obama had a stronger Hillary to beat and more baggage than Bernie and won because he campaigned smart. Bernie had a weaker beleaguered Hillary bogged down by Benghazi and emails and still lost. Bernie had a field that was drained of most democratic competition because of Hillary being such a dominant force(people forget in 2014 she was polling as by far the most popular possible presidential candidate) that the money and talent flocked to her and left people like Warren and Biden screwed before they event started. Not anything shady just the nature of relationships and people. Bernie meanwhile had always thrived on independent financing outside the party and used that empty field to give himself a name in a way he wouldn't have. If today's field had happened in 2016 Bernie would have been crushed if he even appeared at all. I just don't have to lie to myself about some grand if only not for DWS or Hillary Bernie would be president nonsense and can easily find the faults in his campaign as well as the fact that legislatively speaking he wont be getting much done as far as his platform goes whether I like it or not.

But don't get all butthurt when you do something stupid and someone calls it stupid. If you're stupid enough to think Biden's worse cool that's your right. It doesn't remotely make it objectively true and I'm going to call your stupid choice for what it is. Stupid. Like Endus said vote for you who want in the primary. But telling Bernie to run 3rd party like they did is objectively stupid and handing a free win to Trump. And if you support Bernie you should definitely not want Trump even if it means someone you're not excited about unless...... you're stupid. And it is particularly stupid to try and claim that any current DNC candidate is not a better candidate than Trump for anyone who claims to be left wing/liberal.

Your stance seems to be everyone sucks which is fine and you're entitled to it. Biden's not a radical change but even if you hate him the simple fact that Republicans will almost assuredly control the senate even if Biden was president would mean you'd have a president much more likely to enact left friendly( i'm going to assume you're left based on your comments) policies and not enact all the most terrible of the right wing policies. Positive shift towards the "Bernie side" . It would also stop the absolute deluge of conservative Judges getting nominated while Republicans block all of Biden's. Yet another positive shift towards the "bernie side". Essentially no action vs what is a bad action. I'd say that's another solid improvement there. The list goes on. While I don't know or care who you support if you claim it is anyone near Bernie's ideology you are an absolute idiot if you think Biden isn't an improvement over Trump. And as Endus said vote your heart in the primary but if you choose to abstain in the general you're saying Trump is just fine.

But don't misunderstand the point I was actually trying to make which is people who think Trump is bad and claim to support Bernie Sanders but think a single member of the democratic field is just some terrible pill they cannot swallow except him and Bernie should run 3rd party is a moron. Because you're not helping yourself, you're not helping Bernie, but you are helping Trump who will almost assuredly be given an easy win because of it and nothing else. Bernie was smart and threw his weight behind Hillary because he realized Trump is vastly worse than Hillary ever would be. I highly doubt he liked he he doesn't seem to much care for the DNC as a whole. But he wasn't stupid like many of his supporters are determined to be which is not unlike Trump's.

There's a long list of fixes to get my ideal system. Breaking the back of FPTP and implementing something like a ranked choice system. But until those fixes are made 3rd party runs by the guy you like are stupid unless you want to give the candidate you would by inference like less a better chance to win.

[Masark]

The ACA and Net Neutrality to name a couple are not considered to be progressive?

Network neutrality isn't progress. It's marking time rather than marching backwards.

[Omega10]

Who said I hate you? Also who said Biden is my candidate? I actually supported Bernie over Hillary but I wasn't stupid enough to stamp and scream and cry when Bernie lost because of his mistakes/not having enough support. I'll say it again Obama had a stronger Hillary to beat and more baggage than Bernie and won because he campaigned smart. Bernie had a weaker beleaguered Hillary bogged down by Benghazi and emails and still lost. Bernie had a field that was drained of most democratic competition because of Hillary being such a dominant force(people forget in 2014 she was polling as by far the most popular possible presidential candidate) that the money and talent flocked to her and left people like Warren and Biden screwed before they event started. Not anything shady just the nature of relationships and people. Bernie meanwhile had always thrived on independent financing outside the party and used that empty field to give himself a name in a way he wouldn't have. If today's field had happened in 2016 Bernie would have been crushed if he even appeared at all. I just don't have to lie to myself about some grand if only not for DWS or Hillary Bernie would be president nonsense and can easily find the faults in his campaign as well as the fact that legislatively speaking he wont be getting much done as far as his platform goes whether I like it or not.

But don't get all butthurt when you do something stupid and someone calls it stupid. If you're stupid enough to think Biden's worse cool that's your right. It doesn't remotely make it objectively true and I'm going to call your stupid choice for what it is. Stupid. Like Endus said vote for you who want in the primary. But telling Bernie to run 3rd party like they did is objectively stupid and handing a free win to Trump. And if you support Bernie you should definitely not want Trump even if it means someone you're not excited about unless...... you're stupid. And it is particularly stupid to try and claim that any current DNC candidate is not a better candidate than Trump for anyone who claims to be left wing/liberal.

Your stance seems to be everyone sucks which is fine and you're entitled to it. Biden's not a radical change but even if you hate him the simple fact that Republicans will almost assuredly control the senate even if Biden was president would mean you'd have a president much more likely to enact left friendly( i'm going to assume you're left based on your comments) policies and not enact all the most terrible of the right wing policies. Positive shift towards the "Bernie side" . It would also stop the absolute deluge of conservative Judges getting nominated while Republicans block all of Biden's. Yet another positive shift towards the "bernie side". Essentially no action vs what is a bad action. I'd say that's another solid improvement there. The list goes on. While I don't know or care who you support if you claim it is anyone near Bernie's ideology you are an absolute idiot if you think Biden isn't an improvement over Trump. And as Endus said vote your heart in the primary but if you choose to abstain in the general you're saying Trump is just fine.

But don't misunderstand the point I was actually trying to make which is people who think Trump is bad and claim to support Bernie Sanders but think a single member of the democratic field is just some terrible pill they cannot swallow except him and Bernie should run 3rd party is a moron. Because you're not helping yourself, you're not helping Bernie, but you are helping Trump who will almost assuredly be given an easy win because of it and nothing else. Bernie was smart and threw his weight behind Hillary because he realized Trump is vastly worse than Hillary ever would be. I highly doubt he liked he he doesn't seem to much care for the DNC as a whole. But he wasn't stupid like many of his supporters are determined to be which is not unlike Trump's.

There's a long list of fixes to get my ideal system. Breaking the back of FPTP and implementing something like a ranked choice system. But until those fixes are made 3rd party runs by the guy you like are stupid unless you want to give the candidate you would by inference like less a better chance to win.

You called me a baboon. Well it was directed to a poster who I am quite aligned with. Not exactly a term of endearment.

I've been thinking about moving away from the democratic party for a long time. Your post was not any worse than many of the others, it was just the trigger.

I researched what Skroe has laid out as the vision of the democratic party, which really does mirror what Macron is about in France, and also mirrors what Biden has pushed for over the years. I am not convinced that Biden would be better than Trump. Better in some ways, but worse in others.

The libertarian web sites I visited recently about the recent Iran issues pretty much sealed the deal. Biden and Skroe and the democratic party want to substantially beef up our military - guns at the expense of butter. I think we should substantially reduce our military spending and close down a lot of our overseas bases - butter at the expense of guns. I am hoping that we honor Iraq's request to leave their country.

If I thought that Biden would be substantially better than Trump, then I would consider voting democratic in the upcoming election. Since I do not, there is no reason for me not to vote for a candidate that I believe in.

Biden's actions in the past mirror what Skroe has talked about for a long time. His vision will probably prevail in one way or another. But I don't have to support it.

[Bodakane]

Cite some examples of me doing whatever I'm accused of?

You want me to cite all the times you DID NOT blast Trump for lying?

[Fugus]

I did not say "Bernie Bros". I specifically said the "Bernie or Bust" people, who were the ones who either did not vote or voted for Trump once Bernie got ousted (and threaten to do so again). There is a difference, which is why I was careful in saying that it was that specific subset of Bernie supporters and not all (or even most).

Ah, my bad. Misread.

I personally was never the "Bernie Or Bust" crowd myself. I was more than willing to go ahead even with her screwing around on it even though she was a piece of shit candidate.

Pissed me off with her effectively trying to rig both primaries and when she tried to say that she wasn't going to do anything to get his voters on board with her because "I'm winning". The final straw for me was when Debbie Wasserman Schultz was forced to resign in disgrace for trying to cheat in Clinton's favor only to have Clinton turn around and put DWS in her campaign the same day, effectively rewarding her for it. That was just too much of an insult and disgrace to the primaries to still have for her.

I wrote Bernie's name in at that point rather than throw my vote away on someone who actively does that crap. I was never "Bernie Or Bust" it was her personally and her actions that lost her my vote.

[Theodarzna]

You want me to cite all the times you DID NOT blast Trump for lying?

Not doing something isn't really evidence of your initial claim.

[jeezusisacasual]

Despite what the Left wants it will not get regardless of which person is holding the high chair. It would take a massive and i mean absolute massive movement to get single payer passed so that leaves us with the public option which will pass altho on party lines and will be under constant attack. The entire point of moving most of the military suppliers inside every district in America is to force those elected officials to always be on the hook for jobs since that speaks more so in the age of reduced overall working hours etc. That being said i will fly back to Wyoming and vote for whatever democrat is on the ticket just to spit in the face of the Libert i mean Republican party that i have been apart of the majority of my life.

[Dacien]

What you consider lies and their importance, while felating Trump is fucking laughable.

Citations please. :3

[Elegiac]

Yeah, no. This is the excuse of someone that voted for Trump and is trying to walk it back because it turns out that the hype they readily bought into was a unicorn.

[Theodarzna]

Facts. Ask Angela Nagle or Aimee Terese about that. It is true. Their anger is doubled simply because its too hard to debate and you dared to not be a very simple strawman.

It's why discourse here half the time is a complete waste and impossible to take seriously. You could compose an epic essay, you could post five words. That isn't what people respond to.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, no. This is the excuse of someone that voted for Trump and is trying to walk it back because it turns out that the hype they readily bought into was a unicorn.

I've never declared that I voted for Trump, so I'll need a citation from you.

[Machismo]

Facts. Ask Angela Nagle or Aimee Terese about that. It is true. Their anger is doubled simply because its too hard to debate and you dared to not be a very simple strawman.

It's why discourse here half the time is a complete waste and impossible to take seriously. You could compose an epic essay, you could post five words. That isn't what people respond to.

- - - Updated - - -



I've never declared that I voted for Trump, so I'll need a citation from you.

Except you spent years shilling for him, and started dozens of threads in his cause. These have been provided for you in the past, and you summarily ignored them all.

Meanwhile, you got caught plagiarizing and making death threats.

[Theodarzna]

Except you spent years shilling for him, and started dozens of threads in his cause. These have been provided for you in the past, and you summarily ignored them all.

Meanwhile, you got caught plagiarizing and making death threats.

lol.... You'd have to cite things.

Second, Yeah, after awhile I get tired of this exact same dialog and no longer care to really put much work into posts that don't get read.

As for death threats, lol, what?

[Machismo]

Except, you've admitted to being a Trump supporter on numerous occasions.