Exiting the Vampires Castle; Understanding Social Justice Culture

[Theodarzna]

You're throwing around a lot of meaningless pejorative buzzwords for someone claiming to have a rational, informed point of view.

Each in bold, for convenience's sake.



Yeah, this is just a lie. Nobody (at least nobody relevant/important, before you dig up some rando Twitter nobody's tweets) is opposing policies because poor white folk might benefit too.

Class Politics is superior because it actually has universal appeal; your politics on the other hand conveniently "centers" and makes most important an ever narrowing number of people whom are worthy of State patronage. And at the end of the day that is what you are all about. Of-course you personally are never going to be easily caught saying that, but the politicos you have advocated for do so. After all you swim readily in a politics that considers appealing to say White voters, especially White Male voters as something to raise alarms and suspicions.

The key difference between Idpol and Classpol is the universality of the policies. Universal Health Care helps everyone; Mandatory Pronoun recognition helps next to nobody in terms of numbers and serves merely as a new mechanism for disciplinarians to harass the lower classes like High Priests chastising the uncouth savages for not being uncivilized. Idpol amounts to a politics of "MORE FEMALE DRONE PILOTS *CLAP*" and an obsession with an ever narrower cut of the population and more importantly privileging who matters and who might get patronage from the State based on said metrics. Class politics isn't stingy like that so there is a clear material difference. But that would require one to actually read Marx and use a materialist lens to look at things. Another thing Idpol doesn't actually do.

[Fabolouss]

This is maligning ignorant bullshit. Calling people fucking vampires while at the same time talking about moralism and what drives bad behavior. Because when your victim blaming alt-right bullshit doesn't land any other way you come up with this.

Make no mistake this thread is no different than you usual nonsense.

Nobody made the Alt-Right but the Alt-Right, and nobody made this immature morons racist, sexist or homophobic, however there sure are people who see an opportunity in enabling this bullshit, while at the same time trying to come off Woke and Independent themselves.

Racism, Sexism and Homophobia is REAL and has been a problem mostly visited on POC for Hundreds of years not simply the last 30. It's not fucking nature, and it isn't any more sewn in the fabric of humanity than the stupidity that has promoted and sustained it til today.

That is people unwilling to change or give up certain ideas that it is ever been ok, and where we are as a result of where we been is as much apart of the human reality as looking on the TV screen and whining about how we got here.

Nobody deserves to be bullied, racism is not a scientific fact, sexism and homophobia aren't about going against some established reality because some decided to honor it as tradition.

We didn't start the fire as the song said.

exactly nobody deserves to be bullied

can you wipe the slate clean? forget all past whatever... its all on an even slate now everyone is equal. Boom done everyone is equal... that person who hit me in the face 5 minutes ago? done equal slate

[Theodarzna]

No, it always was and always will be about who gets what. You can't please everyone at the same time. You have to prioritize one group over the other.

On an almost existential level one could argue that the essence of Democracy is a system of patronage one way or another. All of it comes down to promises to constituencies that they will get some kind of material or even psychic benefit out of electing someone.

Sanders' big challenge is that his promise is to give patronage pretty much to a vast social class rather than a narrow band of marginal identities; and that his patronage will ultimately say benefit those evil White rednecks out in flyover country as much as it will benefit Latinx Nonbinary Queer slam poets with an MA in Business Admin living in Brooklyn. Once more his benefits are all material benefits, tangible things, much of what is promised to the later intersectional pokemon if you will is often just the psychic reward of being publicly acknowledged and praised and maybe some among them getting HR jobs or some State sinecure to talk about the evils of some larger demographic.

[PC2]

exactly nobody deserves to be bullied

can you wipe the slate clean? forget all past whatever... its all on an even slate now everyone is equal. Boom done everyone is equal... that person who hit me in the face 5 minutes ago? done equal slate

If somebody slapped you then you can charge that person with assault and battery, it's up to you. That's an issue between individuals. Problems only arise when people form generalizations and try to justify collective reward/punishment.

[eschatological]

Class Politics is superior because it actually has universal appeal; your politics on the other hand conveniently "centers" and makes most important an ever narrowing number of people whom are worthy of State patronage. And at the end of the day that is what you are all about. Of-course you personally are never going to be easily caught saying that, but the politicos you have advocated for do so. After all you swim readily in a politics that considers appealing to say White voters, especially White Male voters as something to raise alarms and suspicions.

You're making a broad, and incorrect, assumption that people who care about racism and sexism aren't also concerned about class concerns. Not only are they not mutually exclusive, most of the former is viewed in light of the latter: IE, job and wage discrimination, policing discrimination (policing happens way more in poor areas), and so on, and so forth.

You're living in some deluded fantasy world where people only give a shit about singular issues of what you consider "woke" politics which is hilariously inaccurate. One has to assume you're being disingenuous or abjectly ignorant.

[Theodarzna]

You're making a broad, and incorrect, assumption that people who care about racism and sexism aren't also concerned about class concerns. Not only are they not mutually exclusive, most of the former is viewed in light of the latter: IE, job and wage discrimination, policing discrimination (policing happens way more in poor areas), and so on, and so forth.

You're living in some deluded fantasy world where people only give a shit about singular issues of what you consider "woke" politics which is hilariously inaccurate. One has to assume you're being disingenuous or abjectly ignorant.

I've yet to see much evidence in material terms that I am wrong. If anything the Obama administration proved handily this case. He devolved to Wokesterism quick, and abandoned all the promises of actual material change that caused him to get elected in the first place.

[Howel]

I've yet to see much evidence in material terms that I am wrong. If anything the Obama administration proved handily this case. He devolved to Wokesterism quick, and abandoned all the promises of actual material change that caused him to get elected in the first place.

I am fairly sure that Obama did actually do a fair amount to try and help, some of which likely did. It is those unknown programs that no one ever talks about, policies that get passed and helps people but are never acknowledge for it.

Did he do a lot of shit things as well and by far not as much as he promised? Absolutely.

[Theodarzna]

I am fairly sure that Obama did actually do a fair amount to try and help, some of which likely did. It is those unknown programs that no one ever talks about, policies that get passed and helps people but are never acknowledge for it.

Did he do a lot of shit things as well and by far not as much as he promised? Absolutely.

His betrayal on the housing crisis, his continued imperialism and warmongering, and his willingness to just dump even a shriveled down National Health Service and his taking in Larry Sommers really took the cake for me.

Out of the Obama admin, I can't think of much he did that wasn't wokester pandering or Neo-Liberalism. He was elected on change, and ultimately changed next to nothing.

[Howel]

His betrayal on the housing crisis, his continued imperialism and warmongering, and his willingness to just dump even a shriveled down National Health Service and his taking in Larry Sommers really took the cake for me.

Out of the Obama admin, I can't think of much he did that wasn't wokester pandering or Neo-Liberalism. He was elected on change, and ultimately changed next to nothing.

I think you need to go into the nitty gritty to find stuff. Because I think there is a fair bit, but it is stuff that we really never acknowledge half the time, unfortunately.

But Obama wasn't of much interest to me at the time, so didn't really follow much of his career; so it is at best vague guessing.

[Theodarzna]

I think you need to go into the nitty gritty to find stuff. Because I think there is a fair bit, but it is stuff that we really never acknowledge half the time, unfortunately.

But Obama wasn't of much interest to me at the time, so didn't really follow much of his career; so it is at best vague guessing.

If you have to go hunting to try to detect it, its obviously pitiful and marginal.

[Howel]

If you have to go hunting to try to detect it, its obviously pitiful and marginal.

Not really. Unfortunately programs that can help hundreds of thousands or millions, in minor ways of course, but it all counts, tend to go pretty unsung. Mostly because their effect is usually not trackable by many means, so it becomes hard to exactly set its impact. Often taking many years before their impact is truly noticeable, and then it is wash away with uncertainty of it being the impactor.

It is only once you start to remove stuff, that it becomes more detectable.

[Theodarzna]

Not really. Unfortunately programs that can help hundreds of thousands or millions, in minor ways of course, but it all counts, tend to go pretty unsung. Mostly because their effect is usually not trackable by many means, so it becomes hard to exactly set its impact. Often taking many years before their impact is truly noticeable, and then it is wash away with uncertainty of it being the impactor.

It is only once you start to remove stuff, that it becomes more detectable.

To be fair to Obama; the GOP did him dirty and dedicated ALL of their efforts to fucking with him. I will grant Obama some leniency there, the GOP basically was committed to a scorched Earth policy against him.

But to be judgemental; his heart wasn't in it for real changes. Minor crumbs to me don't matter when in the macro you are dooming those same people. His actions on the 2008 Economic meltdown were a betrayal so great and unforgivable that any action after would have to be amazing to truly counter that. It is akin to a serial child molester giving a can of soup to a charity..... yeah that's nice. But the dude still diddles kids every day. And if the effect can't be tracked, than its not really a material benefit, its at best a psychic benefit to some marginal number of people.

[Themius]

There is nothing radical I’ve seen from the left lately. In fact most “left” is centrist. But Americans are so warped in their world views that almost everything is left wing ... with the caveat being that if a Republican says it it no longer is left wing drivel.

[Endus]

Class Politics is superior because it actually has universal appeal; your politics on the other hand conveniently "centers" and makes most important an ever narrowing number of people whom are worthy of State patronage.

My politics is class politics. You either have no understanding whatsoever of anything I have ever argued on the topic, or you're deliberately misrepresenting me to attack a straw man instead.

Also, no, there is no "ever narrowing number of people whom are worthy of State patronage". There is no "patronage". There is no "narrowing" of the people protected; it's an expansion. None of this makes any sense, and certainly doesn't reflect left-wing views. In fact, the idea that a particular group should be privileged is a fundamentally right-wing idea. It makes me wonder if you're so deep into your own views that you literally cannot grasp left-wing views or principles, except by assuming, falsely, that they're right-wing but "wrong" somehow.

And at the end of the day that is what you are all about. Of-course you personally are never going to be easily caught saying that, but the politicos you have advocated for do so. After all you swim readily in a politics that considers appealing to say White voters, especially White Male voters as something to raise alarms and suspicions.

See? Right there, making shit up. You admit you can't connect my views to what you're claiming, and you do it anyway. You've admitted you're lying but don't care about the facts, because you're going to slap my face on whatever straw man you've invented anyway.

The key difference between Idpol and Classpol is the universality of the policies. Universal Health Care helps everyone; Mandatory Pronoun recognition helps next to nobody in terms of numbers and serves merely as a new mechanism for disciplinarians to harass the lower classes like High Priests chastising the uncouth savages for not being uncivilized.

This is false.

Protected class legislation by definition is universal in its protection. Gender identity, as a protected class (note "class", here; your distinction is arbitrary and without basis in fact) protects every single individual person, not a minority.

Idpol amounts to a politics of "MORE FEMALE DRONE PILOTS *CLAP*" and an obsession with an ever narrower cut of the population and more importantly privileging who matters and who might get patronage from the State based on said metrics.

Again, false.

Asking the question of why there aren't equal numbers of female drone pilots is, however, an important question. Since it suggests some level of discrimination, whether overt or subconscious or systemic.

And again; the issue covers the entire population. When one subset has less presence than it apparently should, that becomes a concern, but the same is true of any subset. The only reason any particular group gets focus is because of actual context and data, identifying a problem area. It has nothing to do with policy in general.

Class politics isn't stingy like that so there is a clear material difference.

This is class politics.

And class politics engages in the same identification of problem classes and narrowing in on solutions; you're just willfully ignoring that, because it's inconvenient and doesn't support your conclusion.

But that would require one to actually read Marx and use a materialist lens to look at things. Another thing Idpol doesn't actually do.

Again, literally making shit up.

[Theodarzna]

There is nothing radical I’ve seen from the left lately. In fact most “left” is centrist. But Americans are so warped in their world views that almost everything is left wing ... with the caveat being that if a Republican says it it no longer is left wing drivel.

I actually agree with this. A lot of things that are merely middling Liberalism are falsely called "Leftism".

[Paranoid Android]

You're making a broad, and incorrect, assumption that people who care about racism and sexism aren't also concerned about class concerns. Not only are they not mutually exclusive, most of the former is viewed in light of the latter: IE, job and wage discrimination, policing discrimination (policing happens way more in poor areas), and so on, and so forth.

You're living in some deluded fantasy world where people only give a shit about singular issues of what you consider "woke" politics which is hilariously inaccurate. One has to assume you're being disingenuous or abjectly ignorant.

That is the OP, you nailed it. I remember this person had a thread about why African Americans only join the Democrat party. This person always argues that the left/Democrats or whatever cannot function as a group with different ideas that they must be singular and if so break up to be their own party or group.

I gave the example back to this person of small government Republicans and conservatives while having Evangelicals and right-wing religious groups. The religious right by no doubt wants government to be in your life. They also want their beliefs to be the ones that dictate law. As a small government Republican this is something you are against, yet they are in the same party. They have enough ideals or believe it is in their best interest to be a political party.

So yeah the OP has always wanted the left to split apart into smaller, less powerful groups. I wonder why this only applies to the left?

[Dhrizzle]

You're throwing around a lot of meaningless pejorative buzzwords for someone claiming to have a rational, informed point of view.

Theo's threads in a nutshell - if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

[Theodarzna]

That is the OP, you nailed it. I remember this person had a thread about why African Americans only join the Democrat party. This person always argues that the left/Democrats or whatever cannot function as a group with different ideas that they must be singular and if so break up to be their own party or group.

I gave the example back to this person of small government Republicans and conservatives while having Evangelicals and right-wing religious groups. The religious right by no doubt wants government to be in your life. They also want their beliefs to be the ones that dictate law. As a small government Republican this is something you are against, yet they are in the same party. They have enough ideals or believe it is in their best interest to be a political party.

So yeah the OP has always wanted the left to split apart into smaller, less powerful groups. I wonder why this only applies to the left?

Care to cite said thread and posts?

As for the Right, I want Libertarians completely eviscerated from the Right, and don't favor a split so much as people being honest with what their ideology actually is.

- - - Updated - - -

Theo's threads in a nutshell - if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

I await someone pointing out what is bullshit. So far we have people saying it is without you know, explaining that. Which is easy to do. Calling something bullshit and then ducking out is cheap and easy. Also justifies why I'll never put effort into MMO-OC posts.

[Endus]

I await someone pointing out what is bullshit. So far we have people saying it is without you know, explaining that. Which is easy to do. Calling something bullshit and then ducking out is cheap and easy. Also justifies why I'll never put effort into MMO-OC posts.

You've either got me on ignore, despite replying to my posts directly, or you're just not being honest, here. Because I did exactly that. I explained exactly what was bullshit about your position. That you were attacking a straw man, rather than anyone on the left wing. That you were misrepresenting what left-wing values fundamentally are. That you were applying your arguments inconsistently. And so on.

[Dug]

A self proclaimed TERF wonders why the left won't simply focus on class issues, hilarious