The Horsemen

[MrLachyG]

so I did the intro experience for new DK's and the 4 Horseman (Mograine, Whitemane, Nazgrim and Trollbane) were standing in front of the Lich King aka Bolvar. does this mean, going off the Shadowlands cinematic, that Sylvanas dispatched them as well? If no, I presume it is because they weren't there so why didn't the Lich King call them for help? just sparked my curiosity

[Kyphael]

so I did the intro experience for new DK's and the 4 Horseman (Mograine, Whitemane, Nazgrim and Trollbane) were standing in front of the Lich King aka Bolvar. does this mean, going off the Shadowlands cinematic, that Sylvanas dispatched them as well? If no, I presume it is because they weren't there so why didn't the Lich King call them for help? just sparked my curiosity

Plot convenience. Showing Sylvanas having to mow down the 4 Horsemen followed by The Lich King (Bolvar) would have been extra work for the art team making the cinematic and fans would have been even more up in arms. Look at how much anger there was at Sylvanas simply defeating Bolvar and a small army of undead.

[Razion]

They probably weren't in the immediate vicinity when Sylvanas arrived.

As the Lich King kind of alludes to and hints at in the starting zone itself, he seems to be aware of the coming threat of the Shadowlands and is in some way preparing for it. So what Sylvanas is about to do is probably something he expects. And him making himself any more vulnerable after the helm's destruction probably isn't something he wants. So keeping the Horsemen close by but not engaging may also be possible. In the meantime, the Horsemen could be off on any number of errands to stop imminent doom to the world - like reforging Frostmourne, collecting the corpses of powerful lore figures like Anduin Lothar, making preparations to remake the Helm of Domination, or just raising an even bigger army to help defend Azeroth if needed.

[Raisei]

Hmmm, good question.

Actually as a matter of fact, the Horsemen being there is weird already. They were after all raised by the Deathlord (aka PC DK) in Legion and have no direct connection to the Lich King and because of that they are usually in Archerus not Icecrown.

There were shared interests and the Lich King had plans for the Death Knights, but they were quite adamant that they would not become his servants again.

[Magicon]

Did you expect them to suddenly get there in a instant all the way from Naxxramas when even Lich King didnt Know Sylvanas was coming for him?

[Jaggler]

Hmmm, good question.

Actually as a matter of fact, the Horsemen being there is weird already. They were after all raised by the Deathlord (aka PC DK) in Legion and have no direct connection to the Lich King and because of that they are usually in Archerus not Icecrown.

There were shared interests and the Lich King had plans for the Death Knights, but they were quite adamant that they would not become his servants again.

It's been a while since I did the DK class campaign, but you enter a deal with Bolvar at the start.

Also isn't Bolvar the one who actually intructs you to raise new Horsemen?

[Chonar]

It's been a while since I did the DK class campaign, but you enter a deal with Bolvar at the start.

Also isn't Bolvar the one who actually intructs you to raise new Horsemen?

I thought it was Darion, back when the initial plan was still for Tirion to be the fourth horseman.
You know, before a buncha snobby paladins stopped you.

[FelPlague]

Sylvanas arrived sorta suddenly, why there is only a semi small army waiting for her, and why undead are super confused to see her at first, and not just attacking her in massive armies at sight.

they were likely far too far away to get the messege to get there asap.

he knew something was coming, but not that, and not so soon.

[cparle87]

so I did the intro experience for new DK's and the 4 Horseman (Mograine, Whitemane, Nazgrim and Trollbane) were standing in front of the Lich King aka Bolvar. does this mean, going off the Shadowlands cinematic, that Sylvanas dispatched them as well? If no, I presume it is because they weren't there so why didn't the Lich King call them for help? just sparked my curiosity

I don't play a death knight so I'm not sure. Does the Bolvar the Horsemen are standing with have the helm or not? If not, this event takes place after Bolvar was defeated and it's possible the Horsemen weren't around to help. If he does, it could be the events of raising the allied race death knights took place well before Sylvanas' attack and Bolvar, not knowing he was in danger, sent them away on tasks.

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Plot convenience. Showing Sylvanas having to mow down the 4 Horsemen followed by The Lich King (Bolvar) would have been extra work for the art team making the cinematic and fans would have been even more up in arms. Look at how much anger there was at Sylvanas simply defeating Bolvar and a small army of undead.

When you're asked a lore question do you even bother thinking of a Watsonian explanation or do you just type some Doylian "lol plot convenience Blizz was lazy" canned response without even bothering to think?

[Mirishka]

Plot convenience. Showing Sylvanas having to mow down the 4 Horsemen followed by The Lich King (Bolvar) would have been extra work for the art team making the cinematic and fans would have been even more up in arms. Look at how much anger there was at Sylvanas simply defeating Bolvar and a small army of undead.

My disappointment was about how effortlessly she won, not that she won. He wasn't able to land a single thing when even Saurfang's old ass managed to (just about) split her eye open. We can say 'but he's not Arthas!!' until we're blue in the face, but Bolvar was a badass paladin in life and now he has at least some of the powers of the LK - and yet she walked in and loller-stomped him. Smirking and smiling while she did it.

If it had been an epic battle where he like, knocked her to the ground, or choked her with strangulate, etc... something where it at least looked like he had the upper hand for even a moment? I think the fight would have been received much more positively.

When a villain or hero is too powerful, too infallible, too perfect in their scheming or fighting or whatever, you tend to lose the audience. There's a reason people constantly joke about '5d chess' when discussing Sylvanas, she's on a level now that is just too much.

According to the internet, as a woman I'm supposed to be jumping up and down screaming 'GIRL POWER' at characters like Sylvanas, but I for one hope she dies in Shadowlands. No redemption, no 'the jailer wuz controllin her mind!' bullshit - she needs to be defeated brutally and as much as I dislike Tyrande, I hope she's the one to do it.

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When you're asked a lore question do you even bother thinking of a Watsonian explanation or do you just type some Doylian "lol plot convenience Blizz was lazy" canned response without even bothering to think?

I agree that the 'lol lazy' argument is old AF, but Kyph was right about one thing: if the horsemen had been there and Sylvanas thrashed them too, people would have been enraged.

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Sylvanas arrived sorta suddenly, why there is only a semi small army waiting for her, and why undead are super confused to see her at first, and not just attacking her in massive armies at sight.

they were likely far too far away to get the messege to get there asap.

he knew something was coming, but not that, and not so soon.

She must have set her hearthstone to Dalaran!

[Zmagoslav]

They probably weren't in the immediate vicinity when Sylvanas arrived.

As the Lich King kind of alludes to and hints at in the starting zone itself, he seems to be aware of the coming threat of the Shadowlands and is in some way preparing for it. So what Sylvanas is about to do is probably something he expects. And him making himself any more vulnerable after the helm's destruction probably isn't something he wants. So keeping the Horsemen close by but not engaging may also be possible. In the meantime, the Horsemen could be off on any number of errands to stop imminent doom to the world - like reforging Frostmourne, collecting the corpses of powerful lore figures like Anduin Lothar, making preparations to remake the Helm of Domination, or just raising an even bigger army to help defend Azeroth if needed.

I don't see that one happening at all...
Between Shadowmourne and the Frost-artifact they must have ran out of shards to reforge from by now.

[Stickiler]

My disappointment was about how effortlessly she won, not that she won. He wasn't able to land a single thing when even Saurfang's old ass managed to (just about) split her eye open. We can say 'but he's not Arthas!!' until we're blue in the face, but Bolvar was a badass paladin in life and now he has at least some of the powers of the LK - and yet she walked in and loller-stomped him. Smirking and smiling while she did it.

If it had been an epic battle where he like, knocked her to the ground, or choked her with strangulate, etc... something where it at least looked like he had the upper hand for even a moment? I think the fight would have been received much more positively.

When a villain or hero is too powerful, too infallible, too perfect in their scheming or fighting or whatever, you tend to lose the audience. There's a reason people constantly joke about '5d chess' when discussing Sylvanas, she's on a level now that is just too much.

According to the internet, as a woman I'm supposed to be jumping up and down screaming 'GIRL POWER' at characters like Sylvanas, but I for one hope she dies in Shadowlands. No redemption, no 'the jailer wuz controllin her mind!' bullshit - she needs to be defeated brutally and as much as I dislike Tyrande, I hope she's the one to do it.

The thing for me was that Bolvar was basically dead when he became the lich king, tortured, only alive as some bastard abomination created by the red dragonflights flame, with some small amount of lich king powers.

Put that against a Jailer/soul-empowered Sylvanas, and it's not that unreasonable that she wipes the floor with him.


I thought it was pretty clear that she was just toying with Saurfang, which is why she got so pissed off that he actually managed to hurt her.

[Razion]

I don't see that one happening at all...
Between Shadowmourne and the Frost-artifact they must have ran out of shards to reforge from by now.

It's not like the shards stopped existing...

[cparle87]

My disappointment was about how effortlessly she won, not that she won. He wasn't able to land a single thing when even Saurfang's old ass managed to (just about) split her eye open. We can say 'but he's not Arthas!!' until we're blue in the face, but Bolvar was a badass paladin in life and now he has at least some of the powers of the LK - and yet she walked in and loller-stomped him. Smirking and smiling while she did it.

If it had been an epic battle where he like, knocked her to the ground, or choked her with strangulate, etc... something where it at least looked like he had the upper hand for even a moment? I think the fight would have been received much more positively.

I get what you're saying.

On the other hand at this rate Bolvar's so-called greatness is entirely an informed attribute. In classic his only claim to fame was being too weak minded to avoid being mind controlled by Onyxia and allowing Stormwind to fall apart. All he did at Wrathgate was smack a few ghouls and disarm a vrykul before dying of poison. We had guys like Varian talking about how Bolvar was one of the best humanity had to offer that it seemed doomed to lose, and Arthas gloated about him being a replacement champion on Tirion's level. But the thing is, we don't see any of this. His performance against Sylvanas, despite popular opinion, lines up with how I've viewed his power level: subpar. He's a replacement for everything. Replacement king cause Onyxia couldn't brainwash Varian. Replacement Lich King cause he knew he was inferior to Tirion and didn't want him to get caught by it.

TLR I feel Bolvar has been overestimated by the playerbase and him losing to Sylvanas was reasonable.

[Raisei]

It's been a while since I did the DK class campaign, but you enter a deal with Bolvar at the start.

Also isn't Bolvar the one who actually intructs you to raise new Horsemen?

Hrmmm... to be honest it has been some time for me too. I remember that it is Bolvar that sends you to Light's Hope to raise Tirion, while his actual pick for the 4th Horseman was Darion to begin with.... I think I need to redo it or watch it at least, it was definately one of the better campaigns.

[Jaggler]

I don't play a death knight so I'm not sure. Does the Bolvar the Horsemen are standing with have the helm or not? If not, this event takes place after Bolvar was defeated and it's possible the Horsemen weren't around to help. If he does, it could be the events of raising the allied race death knights took place well before Sylvanas' attack and Bolvar, not knowing he was in danger, sent them away on tasks.

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When you're asked a lore question do you even bother thinking of a Watsonian explanation or do you just type some Doylian "lol plot convenience Blizz was lazy" canned response without even bothering to think?

The AR and Pandaren recruitment happens before sylvanas breaks the helm.

[Mirishka]

I get what you're saying.

On the other hand at this rate Bolvar's so-called greatness is entirely an informed attribute. In classic his only claim to fame was being too weak minded to avoid being mind controlled by Onyxia and allowing Stormwind to fall apart. All he did at Wrathgate was smack a few ghouls and disarm a vrykul before dying of poison. We had guys like Varian talking about how Bolvar was one of the best humanity had to offer that it seemed doomed to lose, and Arthas gloated about him being a replacement champion on Tirion's level. But the thing is, we don't see any of this. His performance against Sylvanas, despite popular opinion, lines up with how I've viewed his power level: subpar. He's a replacement for everything. Replacement king cause Onyxia couldn't brainwash Varian. Replacement Lich King cause he knew he was inferior to Tirion and didn't want him to get caught by it.

TLR I feel Bolvar has been overestimated by the playerbase and him losing to Sylvanas was reasonable.

I fully expected her to win (and fully agree that the story needed her to win), but the moment and the battle itself would have been more epic and interesting if it hadn't been so one-sided.

When he stood up and channeled the power of that mace to convert all of his burns to frost energy, I was like 'oh shit! This is going to be epic!' Instead, we got what was basically a cat playing with a mouse. There wasn't anything epic about it, at least not in my opinion.

Its great that he's still alive (however 'alive' he is at this point) but is there going to be a payoff for that? After BFA's mediocre storytelling, I'm not holding my breath.

[Aresk]

Hrmmm... to be honest it has been some time for me too. I remember that it is Bolvar that sends you to Light's Hope to raise Tirion, while his actual pick for the 4th Horseman was Darion to begin with.... I think I need to redo it or watch it at least, it was definately one of the better campaigns.

Bolvar and the Ebon Blade enter a deal. The Horsemen are raised by the PC for the Lich King, using the Lich King's power. I just finished leveling my DK through the experience last month, so it's still pretty fresh in my mind.

[Mirishka]

Put that against a Jailer/soul-empowered Sylvanas, and it's not that unreasonable that she wipes the floor with him.

Yeah, this is true. But I feel like it would have made for a better story/moment if the battle had at least some back and forth. Hell, having him hit her with things that she shrugs off would send a stronger message IMO than her magically dodging everything.

[Raisei]

I thought it was Darion, back when the initial plan was still for Tirion to be the fourth horseman.
You know, before a buncha snobby paladins stopped you.

I remember wiping the floor with them , what actually stopped us was the power of the Light that seems to be very strong at Light's Hope. Strong enough to even overpower Arthas at his strongest (before his heart was destroyed), so we were kinda outmatched to begin with.

I still feel that in the context of the Legion Invasion, raising Tirion was a very logical thing to do. We weren't about to use him to conquer the planet (yet...), but to prevent Sargeras from killing everyone. Considering he was willing to become the Lich King for the good of the world, I actually think he would have approved of a second chance. But that damn Light is so posessive...