Gonna miss titanforging.

[Aliven]

What logic, reason and arguments? Your post comes across as if it's written by a 12-year old boy.

I don't like Titanforging. I don't like Corruption neither, and I won't change my opinion on either system because some childish tantrums thrown by people unable to grasp the concept of subjectivity. If you say that Titanforging was mathematically less invasive than Corruption, that's alright, I grasp it just fine (it ain't rocket science I trust you know) but my distaste for the system will remain.

The bonus of Corruption is that it's highly patch themed. Titanforging was not. I'm glad one is gone and I hope the other won't follow us into Shadowlands.

You should change your opinion when presented by objective facts and logical arguments, like Kaminaris provided. How you feel should not have any weight whatsoever about it. Especially low emotions like jealously and hate. "Because others have better" or "I must chase carrot".

[Queen of Hamsters]

You should change your opinion when presented by objective facts and logical arguments, like Kaminaris provided. How you feel should not have any weight whatsoever about it. Especially low emotions like jealously and hate. "Because others have better" or "I must chase carrot".

Oh, I SHOULD, should I? Who made you an authority, exactly...?

Those are not my reasons for disliking it, don't be stubborn and refuse to listen to arguments please. Or continue with your reasoning at a 12-year olds level, no skin off my nose. I'm notorious for not giving a single fuck about what others have/don't have. I'm concerned with my own experience.

Titanforging and Corruption are bad, cynical features. One being less invasive than the other is like saying mustard gas doesn't have the same spread as plague.

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It won't follow us into Shadowlands (other than being the gear we wear transitioning between old expac and new expac. But one of the very recent interviews with Blizzard (I think the one with Ion) it mentioned that Corruption is specific to Vizion's of N'zoth patch and won't be continuing in Shadowlands.

So we're not going to have wf/tf/corruption so seemingly they'll come up with something different. I'm just glad to be back to no tf/wf as it gives back that a little bit of that ladder of progression.

That's comforting to know, they really need to back away from the mobile-game design style.

[Villager720]

I kill the boss with my other guildies and some get loot and some don't get anything, for no reason. I suppose this is WAY different.

...It is. If you choose to see a binary drop/no drop situation as comparable to 6 dice rolls (including whether it drops) for one item, that's on you.

[Raelbo]

It’s interesting that you perceived that as an insult. Heroic players are mediocre.

It’s not an insult unless you make it to be yourself.

I don't know if English is your first language or not, but the term mediocre is generally a pejorative. Honestly, reading what you wrote again, yes, it really does come across as very condescending and your attempts to claim that you meant nothing of it come across as disingenuous tbh.

If you have a problem with being mediocre then you should think about doing something about it.

This isn't about whether or not I am mediocre or not. I was simply pointing out that by resorting to ad hominem you're undermining your own credibility.

My argument:

- Heroic raiders get heroic level gear with no exceptions.
- Mythic raiders get mythic level gear with no exceptions.

That is NOT an argument. It's just two unsubstantiated assertions. Without warrants or backing for your claims they're basically worthless.

What is your argument FOR titanforging?

1) Titanforging makes more content relevant for longer.

It addresses the problem of players avoiding content from which they derive no potential benefit on the basis that it wastes time that could spent on content with benefit. For example, if your friend asks you to join him doing a normal raid run, without titanforging there would be zero chance of getting anything useful for you. As a progression raider, you don't feel comfortable spending time that could be spend productively. With titanforging, the fact that there is a chance of getting a useful piece of gear that will help your mythic progression gives you enough justification to spend the time. Not because you feel you should be doing the content, but simply because there is no longer a compelling reason not to consider doing it.

2) Titanforging extends the gear progression curve which has multiple benefits/addresses multiple problems:

i) No one needs to feel that it is pointless to continue farming once you have a full set of gear. Because you will continue to gain gear upgrades pretty much forever, you're free to decide to stop raiding when you want to rather than because it feels pointless.

ii) For guilds that are struggling/stuck with progression, it ensures that gear progression continues beyond the point where, in the past, no more potential gear upgrades exist, thus helping those guilds to eventually progress

iii) Because of the fact that guilds which continue to put in effort continue to gradually increase in power, this serves as an automatic nerfing mechanism over time. This is a much better mechanism than, for example, straight up % buffs/nerfs that we've seen in the past, firstly because the power creep is earned through persistence/determination/grit rather than being handed on a platter, and also it's a much smoother increase rather than a big step.


All in all, if you consider the way in which the system affects gear over time, it straight up makes content accessible to a much broader spectrum of players without the need for introducing additional difficulty settings.

But Heroic raiders get the gear they deserve: Heroic gear. If you want better gear than that, then you have to push your limit.

Given the lack of substantion you've provided for this assertion, I feel that it's appropriate for me to tell you you're completely wrong. But hey, because I am not the sort of guy who is content to make mediocre arguments, I'll go one step further and warrant my claim:

With TF, a more committed heroic raider will land up with better gear than a less committed heroic raider. And since effort deserves to be rewarded, that is 100% deserved!

[WhoCares]

Sorry, we needed more RNG

[Raelbo]

I never said I don't care about gear, I said I view it not as a reward, but as tools I need to get actual rewards. I want to be able to kit out my character to the max, log out and only log in for mythic progress 2 days a week. And when mythic progress is done, I want to log out and come back for the next tier.

You're totally able to do that. Nothing stops you. If anything, the existence of TF actually encourages this.

The reason is that before TF there was this thing called BiS. Because it was well defined, it became the de facto objective of most serious raiders.

While this was fine for a small minority who lacked the capacity to assess their actual need, and who found it fun to keep raiding a completed tier for the amount of time it would typically take to achieve BiS, for most it just became an unhealthy and unnecessary obsession that led to burnout for some while leaving others bored and without anything to do.

With TF there is no endpoint to gearing. That puts the onus on you to decide when the time to stop is appropriate by considering your goals and objectives. Whether those are:

• simply to get cutting edge then take a break
• get mythic mounts for everyone
• reach a specific ilevel
• score a certain ranked parse
• or just keep farming the instance for as long as feel happy and motivated to continue

Titanforging makes me feel like I can always do more, can always run those extra M+, that normal or heroic run or, even LFR. I don't like that feeling.

That's not really a feeling. It's a simple fact.

That negative feeling is your emotional response to knowledge of the fact. Well, I have good news and I have bad news:

The bad news is that the game can't solve that problem for you, because the game is not responsible for your feelings.
The good news is that with the knowledge that you can regulate your feelings, it's totally in your power to not feel bad.

It's like I said above - you are totally free to stop raiding at the time that is optimal for you. Figure out what you want from the game, what it will take to get it, and what kind of effort you're happy to put in to achieve it. Use this information to decide when it makes sense to stop raiding, and then take a break until the next tier. It really is that simple.

[Kaver]

I don't know if English is your first language or not, but the term mediocre is generally a pejorative. Honestly, reading what you wrote again, yes, it really does come across as very condescending and your attempts to claim that you meant nothing of it come across as disingenuous tbh.



This isn't about whether or not I am mediocre or not. I was simply pointing out that by resorting to ad hominem you're undermining your own credibility.



That is NOT an argument. It's just two unsubstantiated assertions. Without warrants or backing for your claims they're basically worthless.



1) Titanforging makes more content relevant for longer.

It addresses the problem of players avoiding content from which they derive no potential benefit on the basis that it wastes time that could spent on content with benefit. For example, if your friend asks you to join him doing a normal raid run, without titanforging there would be zero chance of getting anything useful for you. As a progression raider, you don't feel comfortable spending time that could be spend productively. With titanforging, the fact that there is a chance of getting a useful piece of gear that will help your mythic progression gives you enough justification to spend the time. Not because you feel you should be doing the content, but simply because there is no longer a compelling reason not to consider doing it.

2) Titanforging extends the gear progression curve which has multiple benefits/addresses multiple problems:

i) No one needs to feel that it is pointless to continue farming once you have a full set of gear. Because you will continue to gain gear upgrades pretty much forever, you're free to decide to stop raiding when you want to rather than because it feels pointless.

ii) For guilds that are struggling/stuck with progression, it ensures that gear progression continues beyond the point where, in the past, no more potential gear upgrades exist, thus helping those guilds to eventually progress

iii) Because of the fact that guilds which continue to put in effort continue to gradually increase in power, this serves as an automatic nerfing mechanism over time. This is a much better mechanism than, for example, straight up % buffs/nerfs that we've seen in the past, firstly because the power creep is earned through persistence/determination/grit rather than being handed on a platter, and also it's a much smoother increase rather than a big step.


All in all, if you consider the way in which the system affects gear over time, it straight up makes content accessible to a much broader spectrum of players without the need for introducing additional difficulty settings.



Given the lack of substantion you've provided for this assertion, I feel that it's appropriate for me to tell you you're completely wrong. But hey, because I am not the sort of guy who is content to make mediocre arguments, I'll go one step further and warrant my claim:

With TF, a more committed heroic raider will land up with better gear than a less committed heroic raider. And since effort deserves to be rewarded, that is 100% deserved!

I hear you my man.

I still think what I said before is an argument for why Titanforging should be removed even though you don't agree. Titanforge should be removed because a Mythic raider always should get better gear than a heroic raider with no exceptions. The only way a heroic raider should be able to get higher level of gear should be by becoming a mythic raider (or do a +15 key of course :P).

Heroic raids is very very very easy content. If you cant beat it you need to learn and get better. Giving better gear is just a form of cheat codes. Doing heroic EP in 440+ gear for example is a complete joke. Players will not learn anything this way.

I don't like your arguments because I think they a based on a weak loser mentality. You get the reward you deserve and that's it. Kill a heroic boss and you get heroic gear. Good thing that Blizzard have realized this is the right way.

[Kaver]

Titanforging gave non-zero replay value to raids and M+. When you are running the same dungeon over and over again, you have slim chance of getting at least anything worthwhile. Or when you are clearing raid for N-th time.

Nobody should care about what heroic or mythic raiders gets, your argument is pure jealousy which - is not even a proper argument.
Simply because heroic raider has no chance to outgear mythic raider.

I'm sorry that all your welfare gear have been taken for you, but that is the way it should be.

You shouldn't keep doing heroic raids. When you have cleared it multiple times, it is time for you to progress to mythic. If you are too scared to do that, then too bad.

Heroic raiders get heroic gear and it is just the way it should be. No exceptions. If you cannot do the content, then you don't get the gear. Simple as that.

Change your loser mentality instead of trying to pull down winners.

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Why would you miss the objectively worst system ever put into WoW?

It's cannot be objectively worst my dude. I think you mean statistically worst if you base it on the number of people who dislike it

[Lollis]

Yes I'm trolling because it's annoying I have to do last two mythic bosses for weapons so I can do the content I actually want to do which is m± and as a melee dps weapon is quite important and I'll be lucky to get one last boss mythic kill let alone enough to farm it. And I bet 99% of players will be in the same boat. Ffs man don't be so lame. They could at least make mythic bosses loot the same ilvl so I can do first 3 bosses that are under tuned. Get my weapon and not have to go back like most "mythic" raiders/guilds do and then claim thier a mythic guild

I'm in the exact opposite camp. I want to raid and not feel beholden to the mythic+ content that I just find boring and repetitive. I have zero interest in mythic plus but I am forced to go there to supplement my gear for raiding.

[Black Goat]

Yes I'm trolling because it's annoying I have to do last two mythic bosses for weapons so I can do the content I actually want to do which is m± and as a melee dps weapon is quite important and I'll be lucky to get one last boss mythic kill let alone enough to farm it. And I bet 99% of players will be in the same boat. Ffs man don't be so lame. They could at least make mythic bosses loot the same ilvl so I can do first 3 bosses that are under tuned. Get my weapon and not have to go back like most "mythic" raiders/guilds do and then claim thier a mythic guild

Wow. This is the most entitled thing I may have ever read on these forums, and that's saying A LOT.

Welcome to World of Warcraft: Normal Mode. Where everything ISN'T handed to you, and you can't get a stupid dungeon weapon to mysteriously upgrade to Mythic Final Boss levels of power. This is the Warcraft we deserve!

[Zka]

The whole point of wow is to obtain BIS gear and top the charts and destroy people. Titanforging only makes things worse.

I fail to understand how TF makes it harder to top the charts. Do TF drop for other people only? And if your gameplay is all about topping the charts, you're doing it wrong.

[Hctaz]

Doubtful that even one single person ever quit over Titanforging. It was one of the better things they added to WoW, and without it we're just going to go back to WoD levels of logging in, running the relevant raid once, logging out until next week. I'll be getting less for my sub because there will be zero reason to run anything beyond my weekly Mythic raid clear. They'll likely lose people's sub money for months at a time as we cap out on gear and unsub until the next content release, just like in WoD.

Doubtless when this change bites them in the ass they'll pull a quick 180 and re-add Titanforging or something very similar.

Plebs getting a single niece piece of gear per tier on average has never negatively impacted my gameplay, so being emotional about that is just bizarre. The only people who freak out about getting a base tier item are people who are just OCD about those things.

Uh... I quit because of titanforging LOL I hated it in Legion. I got incredibly burnt out farming for the same exact item but with more stats on it.

The way it worked in MoP was fine.

Honestly what they need to do is just keep dungeon and raid loot separate. Dungeons before M+ were introduced were just ways for raiders to get a starting baseline of max level gear. That's an outdated concept now. I think mythic plus and raids should be two entirely separate forms of PvE progression.

IMO both pieces of content should drop whatever the max ilvl gear is for the season, but they should have a reduction in ilvl if used in each other. M+ 440 ilvl is like 415 or something in raids and the same for raid gear.

OR

give them special bonuses that only function while inside of specific areas. "Reduces dmg taken from AoE effects by 10% while inside of a dungeon" or something.


But the point for this is that the two systems are made for different people. Obviously you have M+ in this thread saying they can't commit to a mythic raid schedule. Alternatively, why should mythic raiders need to do Mythic plus content anyway?

[GreenJesus]

How presumptuous of you to checkmate without giving me a chance to retort first, arrogant.

I never said I don't care about gear, I said I view it not as a reward, but as tools I need to get actual rewards. I want to be able to kit out my character to the max, log out and only log in for mythic progress 2 days a week. And when mythic progress is done, I want to log out and come back for the next tier.

Titanforging makes me feel like I can always do more, can always run those extra M+, that normal or heroic run or, even LFR. I don't like that feeling.

But without titanforging (and corruption) the raid wont be balanced around players having access to it. And thunderforging with the 3 -6 item levels but still below next difficulty was good enough inspiration to keep farming. Its pants on head retarded you can get greater than or equal to mythic item level from heroic raid.

[Aliven]

Oh, I SHOULD, should I? Who made you an authority, exactly...?

Those are not my reasons for disliking it, don't be stubborn and refuse to listen to arguments please. Or continue with your reasoning at a 12-year olds level, no skin off my nose. I'm notorious for not giving a single fuck about what others have/don't have. I'm concerned with my own experience.

Titanforging and Corruption are bad, cynical features. One being less invasive than the other is like saying mustard gas doesn't have the same spread as plague.

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Common sense dictate that. Like, rules of conversation.

But you dont know them, proved this time and time again, therefore discussion with you is waste of time.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Common sense dictate that. Like, rules of conversation.

But you dont know them, proved this time and time again, therefore discussion with you is waste of time.

Common sense to one is idiocy to another.

I've given perfectly valid reasons for why I dislike both systems, you're simply too stubborn and stuck in ýour way of reasoning to accept them and move on. Which I should've guessed from your very first quote, really.

Have fun missing a shitty system, I know I won't. And I'll be equally glad when the current shitty system is gone too.

[Zantera]

It's a bit of a double sided coin for me. Having raided since TBC, I'm no stranger to the idea that raiding will give you the best gear and I also like the simple idea of harder content rewarding better gear which goes against Titanforging because you get people with a 450 inkpod with socket from heroic, which in a struck of pure luck will give them a better trinket from heroic than most of the mythic raiders who manage to kill that boss on mythic. Still, I don't think titanforging is necessarily a bad concept, just a poorly executed one. The idea of having a reason to do older content with a low chance of an upgrade OR simply the excitement of the weekly chest is all good and fun, and my main thought around it is what will be the main motivation to keep doing the weekly 10 when i'm all decked out in gear.

Ultimately I think a non-TF world is probably better and more satisfying but will take time getting used to again. However in a 'best of both worlds' scenario I still think a simple warforged would be neat. No rng sockets that are overpowered as hell, no crazy +30 ilvl on an item, but maybe something like a +5 ilvl if you are lucky (which is a cap) and maybe the tertiary stats like leech/avoidance etc.

[kaminaris]

I hear you my man.

I still think what I said before is an argument for why Titanforging should be removed even though you don't agree. Titanforge should be removed because a Mythic raider always should get better gear than a heroic raider with no exceptions. The only way a heroic raider should be able to get higher level of gear should be by becoming a mythic raider (or do a +15 key of course :P).

Heroic raids is very very very easy content. If you cant beat it you need to learn and get better. Giving better gear is just a form of cheat codes. Doing heroic EP in 440+ gear for example is a complete joke. Players will not learn anything this way.

I don't like your arguments because I think they a based on a weak loser mentality. You get the reward you deserve and that's it. Kill a heroic boss and you get heroic gear. Good thing that Blizzard have realized this is the right way.

No, gear should be based on skill + effort. If you put enough effort you SHOULD be able to catch up to mythic raiders ie, running hundreds of high M+ keys.

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I'm sorry that all your welfare gear have been taken for you, but that is the way it should be.

You shouldn't keep doing heroic raids. When you have cleared it multiple times, it is time for you to progress to mythic. If you are too scared to do that, then too bad.

Heroic raiders get heroic gear and it is just the way it should be. No exceptions. If you cannot do the content, then you don't get the gear. Simple as that.

Change your loser mentality instead of trying to pull down winners.

Sorry but your thinking is simply stupid. There is no better word for this.
Why? Because the only real problem in mythic raiding is time commitment and logistics.

There are tons of very good players not raiding because they cannot commit to a fixed schedule due to various reasons, 3-shift work is one of them, having child is another and there are tons of other valid reason.

Thus they should be able to get mythic level gear according to your logic because they are worth it. That is what titanforging gave.

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I fail to understand how TF makes it harder to top the charts. Do TF drop for other people only? And if your gameplay is all about topping the charts, you're doing it wrong.

Let me tell you, because BAD people blame their poor performance on gear. While good player keeps on pushing his limits, getting better each pull.

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It's a bit of a double sided coin for me. Having raided since TBC, I'm no stranger to the idea that raiding will give you the best gear and I also like the simple idea of harder content rewarding better gear which goes against Titanforging because you get people with a 450 inkpod with socket from heroic, which in a struck of pure luck will give them a better trinket from heroic than most of the mythic raiders who manage to kill that boss on mythic. Still, I don't think titanforging is necessarily a bad concept, just a poorly executed one. The idea of having a reason to do older content with a low chance of an upgrade OR simply the excitement of the weekly chest is all good and fun, and my main thought around it is what will be the main motivation to keep doing the weekly 10 when i'm all decked out in gear.

Ultimately I think a non-TF world is probably better and more satisfying but will take time getting used to again. However in a 'best of both worlds' scenario I still think a simple warforged would be neat. No rng sockets that are overpowered as hell, no crazy +30 ilvl on an item, but maybe something like a +5 ilvl if you are lucky (which is a cap) and maybe the tertiary stats like leech/avoidance etc.

+5 ilvl is negligible. It wouldn't make sense for such system to even exists as increase in dps would be so marginal that a single lag on boss pull could cost you more dps than this system.
+15ilvl is minimum to even feel it.

And it is fine because chances of it happening was so damn low. 450 inkpod on heroic raider wouldn't give him shit as his whole gear would be much lower ilvl anyways.

[Kaver]

No, gear should be based on skill + effort. If you put enough effort you SHOULD be able to catch up to mythic raiders ie, running hundreds of high M+ keys.

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Sorry but your thinking is simply stupid. There is no better word for this.
Why? Because the only real problem in mythic raiding is time commitment and logistics.

There are tons of very good players not raiding because they cannot commit to a fixed schedule due to various reasons, 3-shift work is one of them, having child is another and there are tons of other valid reason.

Thus they should be able to get mythic level gear according to your logic because they are worth it. That is what titanforging gave.

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Let me tell you, because BAD people blame their poor performance on gear. While good player keeps on pushing his limits, getting better each pull.

Keep telling yourself that bro. Losers always have bad excuses for why they are not winners.

Effort means nothing if you don't achieve anything. I don't care how many hours someone use on doing heroic raids because that content is piss easy and the reward should be given accordingly. If you keep doing heroic raid and never progress to mythic, then you're not putting in effort, you are just wasting time. If you don't do the hardest content then you don't get the best gear. It cannot be more logical. No more welfare gear for people who do easy content e.g. heroic raids.

Fortunately Blizzard is not going to design based on your loser mentality anymore.

[kaminaris]

Keep telling yourself that bro. Losers always have bad excuses for why they are not winners.

Effort means nothing if you don't achieve anything. I don't care how many hours someone use on doing heroic raids because that content is piss easy and the reward should be given accordingly. If you keep doing heroic raid and never progress to mythic, then you're not putting in effort, you are just wasting time. If you don't do the hardest content then you don't get the best gear. It cannot be more logical. No more welfare gear for people who do easy content e.g. heroic raids.

Fortunately Blizzard is not going to design based on your loser mentality anymore.

The only looser attitude is yours, seriously. They are winners as long as they can keep up their goals.
The only way to loose in this game is to start blaming and flaming then giving up.

But according to you, guys who do higher than +20 keys are loosers while reality is, hardly any mythic raider can go up this high even with better gear.

[therealstegblob]

Lol I knew this was coming.

WoW community: OMG <name of thing> sucks get rid of it

Blizz: okay we hear u, its gone in <insert patch>

WoW community: man I miss <name of thing Blizz just removed> so much

Lol yeah, a game with thousands of players has people with different opinions. It took a huge IQ to predict that.