Valeera and the 8.3 Cutscene

[Lochton]

so why is valeera in horde embassy in 8.3 cutscene? She helping both factions?

She is Horde but was honored by Varian, as well as Anduin. Seemingly respected by Shaw as well, and thus permitted to venture to Stormwind too.

[Maxilian]

She is Horde but was honored by Varian, as well as Anduin. Seemingly respected by Shaw as well, and thus permitted to venture to Stormwind too.

Why you say she's Horde?

She clearly stated:

"I am neither Horde nor Alliance. What has either faction ever done for me?"

and

"My loyalties are personal-- To King Varian and to his son!"

[Lochton]

Why you say she's Horde?

She clearly stated:

"I am neither Horde nor Alliance. What has either faction ever done for me?"

and

"My loyalties are personal-- To King Varian and to his son!"

Was then, but I would say she's still considered Horde. For even when they snide at neutrality, she's still walking around.

[mickybrighteyes]

Garrosh also ordered Sylvanas not to harm civilians

As well as ordering the forsaken to fight in manners that was gross waste of what they did have on grounds that it was what they were good for. He wanted pointless blood shed because

Also, she may have had Warden Stillwater killed, but the fact that he's alive again in Legion and BFA shows that the questline is non-canon. Unless it's an oversight perhaps?

a number of dead npc from past questlines somehow died and came back. Devs not paying attention is the most likely suspect.

The fall of Quel'thalas is 90% Sylvanas' fault.

I've heard some interesting claims here... this isn't top of the list (Someone calling Stormheim an unprovoked ambush of the horde on Alliance who were test firing cannons holds that spot)... but I'm going to press X to doubt on this logic here.

She had all the opportunities to assassinate Arthas but she refused because she wanted the glory and honor of being the hero who took down Arthas in a glorious battle, and so she sent in her Farstriders to their deaths.

Really? seemed like Arthas and his endless tide of undead marching almost unhindered and laying waste to everything in their path seemed rather untouchable. slowing him down was all she was apparently able to do.

Also, the Blood Elves aren't technically her own people. Also, the ones who did most of the dirty work were the High Elves, their own people; though Jaina can die, for all I care.

residents of the city she was now taking charge of as a leading member of the council of six, and Jaina going overboard to become judge jury and executor for some of them while passing the additional duties to Vareesa and the SC.

Her city, her residents, her people. The event started with her teleporting to the scene and starting with some killing.

- - - Updated - - -

Was then, but I would say she's still considered Horde. For even when they snide at neutrality, she's still walking around.

only if people are going "well Blood elves are horde and she's a blood elf..."

She has no real ties to Quel'thalas beyond her race and less ties to the horde itself.

[Raisei]

Note I said before Teldrassil...

And I explained how Sylvanas commited various heinous crimes way before that.

You can say "but Gilneas!" and yeah... Garrosh held the Underctiy hostage with his personal guards and commaned GIlneas to be invded and to secure a port with a road of destroyed forsaken paving the way to it. You can also argue that Sylvanas was complicate in the plague/blight production.

He also ordered NOT to use the Blight. We all know how that ended.

Attempting to wipe out a nation is still on Jaina's resume, the fact that she failed isn't because she chose not to succeed but that she was forcibly stopped by others. Jaina purging her own city before Garrosh or Sylvanas start up their evil tropes, she's like the prequel to both the horde leaders going bad!

Uh... the Purge happened AFTER Theramore... and is heavily influenced by Theramore AND it happened after the Bell was stolen. So much about Jaina being the prequel to anything Garrosh did.
And as I said, Sylvanas was bad news years before she became Warchief, basically the moment she got her freedom back, she started scheming her revenge and murdered dozens of people without a shred of remorse. Jaina on the other hand was haunted for years when she allowed her father to die.

in the Cata campaign it was Garrosh who ordered those cities taken with the highest body count possible for BOTH sides. As for the conflict leading up to Teldrassil... the main mind behind the campaign is resting with honors as the hero who stood against Sylvanas.

Sure Saurfang planned it, because Sylvanas always makes sure to have a scapegoat to blame. Why did you think she wanted him to kill Malfurion? Because she suddenly cares about his honor? Come on.
And Saurfang planned a war, he won the war. Sylvanas decided to go genocidal AFTER she won. No one knew this was gonna happen, least of all Saurfang. He even helps evacuating civilians during the pre-patch.

'enjoyed' taking some liberty with the fact that random apothecaries had their methods?

Well, the canon Arthas book shows how she observes the Apothecaries testing the blight on an innocent farm girl and one of her own Forsaken. She appreciates the effects (i.e. the girl bleeding to death from all orificies) quite a bit.

Well that attempt to WIPE OUT ORGRIMMAR is on the same level. and 2 counts of allowing people under her care in her cities[/i] is pretty damn atrocious.

It is not dishonest to point out that Jaina has done some hella shady shit and only dodged a larger body count because other characters intervened. But good girl Jaina has some legendary grade plot armor to still be a hero in everyone's eyes. Shows up to wipe out the Undercity alone, with no plan, just so happens it's already under attack by Anduin so she can Deus ex Jaina a way to "not defeat"

Bolded for emphasis. There is a big difference between attempted mass murder and commited mass murder. The difference between Jaina and Sylvanas in other words. Also you surely realize that Jaina stopped because she saw reason and snapped out of her near insane state, it was not that Thrall could have stopped her if she had been hell-bent on wiping out the city. She stopped because she wanted to stop, because she - different from Sylvanas - did not actually want to kill people, but she wasn't thinking clearly.

[mickybrighteyes]

Uh... the Purge happened AFTER Theramore... and is heavily influenced by Theramore AND it happened after the Bell was stolen. So much about Jaina being the prequel to anything Garrosh did.

She was kin slaying and turning on her subordinates before Garrosh ever did.

Or maybe you want a refresher on why Kul tiras wasn't among the remaining human kingdoms in the alliance? There's also the fact that dalaran's purge still takes place prior to Garrosh trying to purify his horde...

Bolded for emphasis. There is a big difference between attempted mass murder and commited mass murder.

Intent is still there. Jaina has been pretty piss poor at carrying out anything largely because someone else has been there to hold her off... but you can argue that attempt might not matter vs results, I still hold intent in high regard. Something I notice you do for another character despite evidence to back your claims ^.^

Also you surely realize that Jaina stopped because she saw reason and snapped out of her near insane state, it was not that Thrall could have stopped her if she had been hell-bent on wiping out the city. She stopped because she wanted to stop, because she - different from Sylvanas - did not actually want to kill people, but she wasn't thinking clearly.

So it wasn't Thrall and her boy toy talking her down that stopped her? it was all her own desire? still doesn't change that she stole the gun, aimed and cocked the gun and then fired it.... Good thing Thrall was there to keep it from actually striking the target and allow you that saving grace to say she didn't do anything... despite the fact she did

Oh please, stuff it with that "She stopped because she wanted to stop,"... she stopped because multiple other parties intervened and all but beat the sense back into her.

[Sorshen]

It's pretty obvious she serves as a nod to the 'red telephone hotline' concept, in this case between the leaders of the Horde and the Alliance. She sees past factions, as she has friends and personal debts on both sides.

[Ardenaso]

He even helps evacuating civilians during the pre-patch.

Where can I see this?

[Gestopft]

It's pretty obvious she serves as a nod to the 'red telephone hotline' concept, in this case between the leaders of the Horde and the Alliance. She sees past factions, as she has friends and personal debts on both sides.

Never thought of it that way, but now I can't NOT think of it that way.

Also, her new model is wonderful I must say. My blood elves feel inadequate.

[sam86]

Lmao you can leave the secret part out of it.

she is belf, for most horde races she can easily blend as typical belf and they won't notice
like irl, for most races in wow, ppl outside their race look similar, most orcs can't tell between different belfs, heck most horde races don't tell between male and female belfs at first glance, check the quest welcome to the machine for reference

[Wyrt]

Actually it makes complete sense. She was a very close friend of Varian during his time as Lo'gosh and stayed that way even after he became king. Because of this she considers Anduin basically a part of her family, a nephew, much like Jaina does. But she is and remains a Blood Elf (hence why she has trouble being accepted by the Alliance hierachy in general) and is also a member of the Uncrowned which consists of criminals mainly (Tess being very secretive about it, not even telling her dad).

And because she is a Blood Elf she can move in Horde circles a lot easier then any other Alliance spy, thus she works for the House of Wrynn (not necessarily the Alliance) in secret. She also shares Anduin's wish for peace though, since she is of course stuck between two chairs. Apparently only very select people on the Horde side know of her true allegiance, people that Anduin trusts, so Valeera was also the one to ask Jaina to meet with Baine.

Her loyalty to the Wrynns in particular makes no sense.

They had 1 arena fight together, she got sold off to another slave master, broke free on her own, hunted down assassins sent after Varian, and then somehow becomes the Wrynn's loyal pet.

It's not like Varian freed her or saved her life or anything. Quite the opposite actually.

[Specialka]

She was kin slaying and turning on her subordinates before Garrosh ever did.

Or maybe you want a refresher on why Kul tiras wasn't among the remaining human kingdoms in the alliance? There's also the fact that dalaran's purge still takes place prior to Garrosh trying to purify his horde...

Intent is still there. Jaina has been pretty piss poor at carrying out anything largely because someone else has been there to hold her off... but you can argue that attempt might not matter vs results, I still hold intent in high regard. Something I notice you do for another character despite evidence to back your claims ^.^




So it wasn't Thrall and her boy toy talking her down that stopped her? it was all her own desire? still doesn't change that she stole the gun, aimed and cocked the gun and then fired it.... Good thing Thrall was there to keep it from actually striking the target and allow you that saving grace to say she didn't do anything... despite the fact she did

Oh please, stuff it with that "She stopped because she wanted to stop,"... she stopped because multiple other parties intervened and all but beat the sense back into her.

She fought Daelin's forces for good reason. Should I remind you that Thrall's Horde literally just saved the world?

[Kiri]

Her loyalty to the Wrynns in particular makes no sense.

They had 1 arena fight together, she got sold off to another slave master, broke free on her own, hunted down assassins sent after Varian, and then somehow becomes the Wrynn's loyal pet.

It's not like Varian freed her or saved her life or anything. Quite the opposite actually.

Two, and in the first one he did actually save her life from a troll, then saved the life of the one other person she kinda cared for. He had her back, she had his. That's a good situation for loyalty to arise, to be honest. In an environment where she had no one she could really trust, he proved to be a pretty stable anchor, especially after both factions had failed her. Afterwards, she was treated fairly well by the Wrynns, even being given a position where she was comfortable and didn't need to take crap from others.

[Feanoro]

She fought Daelin's forces for good reason. Should I remind you that Thrall's Horde literally just saved the world?

Nope, that'd be the Night Elves, Alliance, and Horde. She fought Daelin because she was an idealistic fool who thought Thrall was the norm, when the rest of the Horde at Hyjal were only there to save their own asses/get revenge on the Legion.

[Specialka]

Nope, that'd be the Night Elves, Alliance, and Horde. She fought Daelin because she was an idealistic fool who thought Thrall was the norm, when the rest of the Horde at Hyjal were only there to save their own asses/get revenge on the Legion.

We could say the same for most Alliance that was there.

And dare I remind you that in the early day of Wow, it was Alliance that was more or less considered the "aggressor" while The Horde was seen as the scapegoat trying to survive. All this shifted at Wotlk.

[Alanar]

she is belf, for most horde races she can easily blend as typical belf and they won't notice
like irl, for most races in wow, ppl outside their race look similar, most orcs can't tell between different belfs, heck most horde races don't tell between male and female belfs at first glance, check the quest welcome to the machine for reference

I hope you are joking right now.. because everyone and their moms know she is with the Alliance(You missed the part when she walked with anduin through the portal in OG? where also all horde was), also she has glowing green eyes and super unique full on sexy red suit. and unique hairstyle. Blending in won't help or work at all.

Unless she stealths out which isnt the best option, because interacting with people or items will break it.

[Feanoro]

We could say the same for most Alliance that was there.

Just pointing out your statement was a bit exaggerated. The Night Elves stopped the Legion.

And dare I remind you that in the early day of Wow, it was Alliance that was more or less considered the "aggressor" while The Horde was seen as the scapegoat trying to survive. All this shifted at Wotlk.

Considered by whom? Horde players? Alliance viewpoint in vanilla (and we now have Classic so anyone can verify) was barely concerned with the Horde beyond making sure they didn't become a threat again. The problem back then is there was almost no Horde story beyond "Zug zug me kill puny Alliance!" and Horde fans weren't interested in anything else.

[Specialka]

Just pointing out your statement was a bit exaggerated. The Night Elves stopped the Legion.

Considered by whom? Horde players? Alliance viewpoint in vanilla (and we now have Classic so anyone can verify) was barely concerned with the Horde beyond making sure they didn't become a threat again. The problem back then is there was almost no Horde story beyond "Zug zug me kill puny Alliance!" and Horde fans weren't interested in anything else.

Not really, the Horde and The Alliance gave enough time to the NE to prepare the wisp bomb.

[therealbowser]

Note I said before Teldrassil...

You can say "but Gilneas!" and yeah... Garrosh held the Underctiy hostage with his personal guards and commaned GIlneas to be invded and to secure a port with a road of destroyed forsaken paving the way to it. You can also argue that Sylvanas was complicate in the plague/blight production.

Lets recap on Jaina, however...

In on her father's and the Kul Tirans deaths because she wanted to maintain ties with Orgrimmar, the deaths were done with her blessing and help. Fine and dandy, just a minor issue that's only KIND of kinslaying/betrayal. Attempting to wipe out a nation is still on Jaina's resume, the fact that she failed isn't because she chose not to succeed but that she was forcibly stopped by others. Jaina purging her own city before Garrosh or Sylvanas start up their evil tropes, she's like the prequel to both the horde leaders going bad!

Sure, you can call back and be all Sylvanas blighted Gilneas... But fact remains Jaina had more betrayals on people in her own cities... How many cities she gotta run AND kill her subjects in before people take notice? third times the charm? Look out Boralus!

in the Cata campaign it was Garrosh who ordered those cities taken with the highest body count possible for BOTH sides. As for the conflict leading up to Teldrassil... the main mind behind the campaign is resting with honors as the hero who stood against Sylvanas.


'enjoyed' taking some liberty with the fact that random apothecaries had their methods?


Well that attempt to WIPE OUT ORGRIMMAR is on the same level. and 2 counts of allowing people under her care in her cities[/i] is pretty damn atrocious.

It is not dishonest to point out that Jaina has done some hella shady shit and only dodged a larger body count because other characters intervened. But good girl Jaina has some legendary grade plot armor to still be a hero in everyone's eyes. Shows up to wipe out the Undercity alone, with no plan, just so happens it's already under attack by Anduin so she can Deus ex Jaina a way to "not defeat"

Again, the comparison to Sylvanas gets blown out of the water by the time BFA rolls around and Teldrassil burned...

Geez, the moral gymnastics in this post is impressive.

Please don't feel the need to respond to this, as your arguments are flawed to the core and there is no point in me going in detail why this is wrong. I am just genuinely impressed that there is anyone this obsessively dedicated to Sylvanas still.

Accept that she's a monster that is in no way innocent and doesn't apologize for her actions. That's why people like her, not because she's a 'victim' or whatever you have in your mind that she is. Assuming these kinds of things ruins the only thing people actually like (liked?) about her character.

There is no morally grey here, lol.

[Venziir]

She is Horde but was honored by Varian, as well as Anduin. Seemingly respected by Shaw as well, and thus permitted to venture to Stormwind too.

She's a Blood Elf; not Horde. Hell, the Horde didn't even interact with her until Legion, unlike the Alliance which have interacted with her since Wotlk.