Valeera Sanguinar vs. Vereesa Windrunner

[Wyrt]

If you can't handle people rolling their eyes at you when you make stupid posts on the internet, maybe you're the one who should take a step back?

Forums are for discussing things. Not going into a rage and insulting people when someone disagrees with you.

[therealstegblob]

Forums are for discussing things. Not going into a rage and insulting people when someone disagrees with you.

If you want to discuss, then make a real discussion. Trying to put words in my mouth and insist you know what you're talking about when you really don't (you just personally don't like Rhonin) is not a discussion, it's an invitation to be dismissed. You don't like Rhonin or Knaak's writing, that's fine. I get it. Like, whatever. I don't think he's necessarily a great author either, and he's written a couple of very bad books in the Warcraft novel canon. But to throw around labels and make baseless accusations is not only stupid, but pathetically unoriginal. You are not the first galaxy brain to make the blind suggestion that literally any random character is a self-insert of the author.

You sound like the kind of person who thinks fucking Harry Potter is J.K. Rowling's self-insert or something. It'd be funny if it wasn't so infernally repetitive.

[Wyrt]

If you want to discuss, then make a real discussion. Trying to put words in my mouth and insist you know what you're talking about when you really don't; you just personally don't like Rhonin. That's fine, like, whatever. But to throw around labels and make baseless accusations is not only stupid, but pathetically unoriginal. You are not the first galaxy brain to make the blind suggestion that literally any random character is a self-insert of the author.

You sound like the kind of person who thinks fucking Harry Potter is J.K. Rowling's self-insert or something. It'd be funny if it wasn't so infernally repetitive.

See, you say you want to discuss, but then immediately go back to having a rage fit and throwing insults.

[therealstegblob]

See, you say you want to discuss, but then immediately go back to having a rage fit and throwing insults.

I'd suggest you don't know what anger looks like, but we both know you do. You know you got roasted out for saying something dumb and now you're falling back on blaming it on imaginary anger. I'm not angry, you just make shitty posts.

[Wyrt]

I'd suggest you don't know what anger looks like, but we both know you do. You know you got roasted out for saying something dumb and now you're falling back on blaming it on imaginary anger. I'm not angry, you just make shitty posts.

Actually, no, I didn't get "roasted." Several people agreed with me and you're the only one insulting me for what I said.

[therealstegblob]

Actually, no, I didn't get "roasted." Several people agreed with me and you're the only one insulting me for what I said.

Wow a whole two people agreed with you, that must mean your objectively incorrect statement now has merit.

Anyways, we both know you lost this. I won't respond to you anymore since we're kind of just spamming the thread at this point but here's the takeaway you can walk off with: Mary Sues are not just characters you don't like. A main character is obviously going to have traits and story focus befitting a main character, you can't just say "but he's the main character... HE MUST BE A MARRY SUE1111". That's stupid. Mary Sues are wish fulfillment characters that don't necessarily need to be author self inserts. Knaak didn't just come up with Rhonin all on his own, he worked with Blizzard to create the character and got their okay to include him. Probably because they wanted more characters to carry more original non-MMO media, like books and manga; the Warcraft comics are rife with OC's. Is Valeera a fucking Mary Sue now, too? How about Broll Bearmantle? Fuck, let's just call Varian a Mary Sue too while we're at it. Everyone is a Mary Sue. They're all OC characters made up by an author, after all.

[Wyrt]

Wow a whole two people agreed with you, that must mean your objectively incorrect statement now has merit.

Wow, a whole one person flew into a wild rage and flung insults at me. Clearly that must mean his opinion is right and everyone else's opinion is "objectively" wrong!

I wish this forum would do more to police trolls like you who can't even hold a civil conversation.

[Ringthane]

I'd suggest you don't know what anger looks like, but we both know you do. You know you got roasted out for saying something dumb and now you're falling back on blaming it on imaginary anger. I'm not angry, you just make shitty posts.

It sure sounds like you know what anger is like, since you're getting so worked up over - GASP! - someone having a different opinion on the internet.

It sounds like you also know what pointlessness is like, but that's a separate discussion.

[Leyre]

Really? A rogue who fought for her life in gladiatoral pits vs a hunter who peaked at getting pregnant by a major lore figure?

[therealstegblob]

Wow, a whole one person flew into a wild rage and flung insults at me. Clearly that must mean his opinion is right and everyone else's opinion is "objectively" wrong!

I wish this forum would do more to police trolls like you who can't even hold a civil conversation.

"Rhonin is a bad character, I don't like him" is an opinion. "Rhonin is Knaak's self-insert and/or his Mary Sue" is an objectively incorrect statement. Make sense to you?

[Wyrt]

"Rhonin is a bad character, I don't like him" is an opinion. "Rhonin is Knaak's self-insert and/or his Mary Sue" is an objectively incorrect statement. Make sense to you?

It's not objectively incorrect.

Rhonin is either a self-insert or a pet character of Knaak. You can't argue otherwise. This character was then inserted as the central character of a story that had nothing to do with the character at all.

That makes him a Mary Sue. That's pretty much the literal definition of Mary Sue.

[therealstegblob]

It's not objectively incorrect.

It is absolutely objectively incorrect.

Rhonin is either a self-insert or a pet character of Knaak.

[citation needed]

You can't argue otherwise

Lol.

This character was then inserted as the central character of a story that had nothing to do with the character at all.

It's true that Rhonin, Krasus and Broxigar weren't originally related to the War of the Ancients and only appeared there due to time travel bullshit; but again, Knaak did not write the novels independently on his own. Blizzard worked with him to create and approve the synopsis and characters before he even began writing the product. Maybe Knaak liked his original creations and felt the story easier to write by utilizing them. Maybe Blizzard wanted them included because, again, they were trying to build a full literary universe and possibly wanted original characters to directly attribute to that. You can not say you know either way for sure, and at any rate none of the most likely reasons would make Rhonin a Mary Sue anyways.

Rhonin went so far as being physically placed in the game as a central NPC character with voice acting and presence in rendered cinematic trailers. Like, bitch and piss all you want but Rhonin was not some 'pet character' pushed by Knaak. Blizzard actively accepted and adopted the character themselves. You want to talk about things that can't be argued with? Here it is, big boi.

That makes him a Mary Sue. That's pretty much the literal definition of Mary Sue.

No, it's not. There's not even a 100% accepted definition of what a Mary Sue is, as most people recognize it as being one or several symptoms pulled from a list of recognized symptoms that normally comprise any given Mary Sue. The one thing that unifies all Mary Sues, however, is that they are wish fulfillment characters. I think this is the best definition you can have for the term, as every other definition ("self-insert", "too perfect", etc) are not things that make a Mary Sue by themselves. If I self-inserted myself into a story but I was just a random side character who did nothing noteworthy or important, did I write a Mary Sue? Is Goku a Mary Sue?

You're the literal definition of Dunning-Kruger. Oh, Wyrt. You make me cum.

Also, I'm ignoring you.
[Infraction]

[Wyrt]

Also, I'm ignoring you.

Yep, just as I thought. You're here to troll and nothing more. When I try to have a discussion with you it just devolves into insults and random ass strawmen arguments.

This forum really needs to clean up shit like this.

[Mehrunes]

It's true that Rhonin, Krasus and Broxigar weren't originally related to the War of the Ancients and only appeared there due to time travel bullshit; but again, Knaak did not write the novels independently on his own. Blizzard worked with him to create and approve the synopsis and characters before he even began writing the product. Maybe Knaak liked his original creations and felt the story easier to write by utilizing them. Maybe Blizzard wanted them included because, again, they were trying to build a full literary universe and possibly wanted original characters to directly attribute to that. You can not say you know either way for sure, and at any rate none of the most likely reasons would make Rhonin a Mary Sue anyways.

Weird how that does not apply to you and the topic of whether or not is Rhonin a self-insert, because there you have "objective truths" as if you were Knaak yourself.

Rhonin went so far as being physically placed in the game as a central NPC character with voice acting and presence in rendered cinematic trailers. Like, bitch and piss all you want but Rhonin was not some 'pet character' pushed by Knaak. Blizzard actively accepted and adopted the character themselves. You want to talk about things that can't be argued with? Here it is, big boi.

Putting aside how shortly after that Blizzard went through a phase of violently killing almost all of Knaak's regulars, what does this have anything to do with whether or not Rhonin is self-insert? If Blizzard put Golden's self-admitted self-insert Warlock from War Crimes in the game would that make that character not a self-insert? If so, through what process exactly would that happen?

No, it's not. There's not even a 100% accepted definition of what a Mary Sue is, as most people recognize it as being one or several symptoms pulled from a list of recognized symptoms that normally comprise any given Mary Sue. The one thing that unifies all Mary Sues, however, is that they are wish fulfillment characters. I think this is the best definition you can have for the term, as every other definition ("self-insert", "too perfect", etc) are not things that make a Mary Sue by themselves. If I self-inserted myself into a story but I was just a random side character who did nothing noteworthy or important, did I write a Mary Sue? Is Goku a Mary Sue?

You're the literal definition of Dunning-Kruger. Oh, Wyrt. You make me cum.

But @Wyrt wasn't talking about self-insterting characters in general. Their actual claim was that Rhonin "was then inserted as the central character of a story". The word "central" is, well, central to that claim here. You leaving that out just because and talking about general situations and cases of self-inserts just standing by as the story passes next to them doesn't actually counter things here as much as you think. Because it's a non-sequitur.

Especially since a self-insert that is central to the story is the very namesake of the term Mary Sue. So @Wyrt's claims that self-insert that is central to the story is the literal definition of a Mary Sue is much more accurate that you gave it credit (putting aside how you randomly dropped the "central" part out of the equation).

And once you realize that, you realize that your counterargument doesn't actually counter anything here. Because making your self-insert central to the story is done for wish-fulfillment reasons and you yourself argued that wish-fulfillment is what makes a Mary Sue. Essentially playing straight into Wyrt's claim that you tried to counter... Which puts your remark about the Dunning-Kruger effect in quite an interesting light.

[Rozz]

Calm it down. Discussion should never devolve into insults towards each other.

[Mehrunes]

Really? A rogue who fought for her life in gladiatoral pits vs a hunter who peaked at getting pregnant by a major lore figure?

Judging by what that pregnancy resulted in I'm not sure I'd call it a peak.

Actually, looking for that image made me find her actual peak (i.e. the best part of her plot in War Crimes).

[Villager720]

While i agree Rhonin is a "mary sue" he is nowhere near Med'an, that guy is lightyears ahead of anyone else, even green jesus pales in comparison.
I mean, the whole Med'an bit reads like a 12 year olds fanfiction.

Sure - but did Med'an, nominally just a humble mage/shaman/paladin, manage to build himself an army or raptors to free a dragon?

[Soon-TM]

Really? A rogue who fought for her life in gladiatoral pits vs a hunter who peaked at getting pregnant by a major lore figure?

At least, Valeera's background is passable, and she's definitely had an important (even if... stealthy) role since Stormrage - whereas poor Vereesa has been chick-ified just to provide one of the worst written characters in the entire franchise with a hot !@#$toy.

[Broken Fox]

Who the hell are these characters?

[Wyrt]

Who the hell are these characters?

Generic elves that thirst for human potential.