Lich King Bolvar vs Mannoroth

[darkoms]

Manual was never descriped the wrong nor stated.
But we statements which say wow novel aim to be canon but somethings are less canon and only characters are canon.

Chronicles doesn't descripe every event from wc3 manual but they don't contradict each other means both can be canon.

And official blizzard stance on novel from then and before is ""Yeah, the novels are pretty much considered canon, um, the funny thing is some things are less canon. We shoot for canon... typically the characters in novels are canon." – Chris Metzen[

So typical character are canon in novels abd they shoot for canon.

How convenient it is, what exactly you decide what to consider canon and what not

[naeblis495]

So Gul'dan beats cenarius and Grommash beats any druid as chronicles 3 heavily imblied Grommash killed cenarius 1v1.

Placing Grommash above what sylvanas was in bfa pre-events as Cenarius is in every way stronger than malfurion and malfuriom wc3 manual fought azshara on equal ground as an appretince druid(WotA original timeline) meaning Grommash is stronger than azshara.

This grommash was amped two time from demon blood to beat cenarius . And i can believe that little more than him one shotting manno while having no amp whatsoever.

[funcik]

We can't say Gorehowl is stronger either.

If you want to deconstruct things, here's something to thing about:
1 - Remember how Saurfang vs Sylvanas wasn't even a fight?
Saurfang only even touched her because she was greatly underestimating him after she landed a bunch of cuts without a fight, and even then he only grazed her.

2 - Think about Grommash & Gorehowl vs Varok Saurfang & Shalamayne

3 - Now think about Grommash vs Sylvanas

4 - Finally, think again about Grommash vs Bolvar

It's silly to think Gorehowl changes anything in these kinds of fights.
Gorehowl was useful against Mannoroth because Mannoroth is a living target dummy.
It was simply a question of whether the attack & weapon being used against him is powerful enough to hurt him or not.

However, when considering fights between humanoids, it goes differently because they don't simply stand there taking the hits like a champ and instead dodge, block or parry attacks.

In W3, Mannoroth nevertheless tried to fend off Grommash's attack, but the blow of this orc was too strong to repel even such a demon. I agree that a lot depends on the fighter himself, but you should not think that the level of strength of the weapon itself gives the fighter nothing.
Then Broxigar would not have wounded Sargeras with his usual hammer.
And as an example, the same Broxigar fight against Captain Varo'then (novel The War of the Ancients) in which the elf cleverly (like Sylvanas against Varok) cut the orc, who almost beheaded the elf later with the Cenarius axe. But could he hurt Sargeras without that enchanted ax. The question is open. It all depends on the fighter and on the weapon. And Bolvar will defeat Mannoroth due to the better use of magic)).

[Terongor]

This grommash was amped two time from demon blood to beat cenarius . And i can believe that little more than him one shotting manno while having no amp whatsoever.

First time amped once but as we see from same orcs in outland or even furher onces in wod hfc it really doesn't make them that much powerful and the amping only gave Grommash more strenght and as you previosly talked strenght really couldn't counter magic.

Also wc3 dialogue mannoroth said he would love face cenarius again and knowing mannoroths personality he is either stronger or the same level and during WotA mannoroths was pierced by one of strongest and enchanted elven blades (varo'thens sword) and it only caused mannoroth to sufer more damage and it still took malfurion, illidan and alliance heroes to take him out and Illidan enchanted the alliance heroes with powers from well of eternity.

[naeblis495]

First time amped once but as we see from same orcs in outland or even furher onces in wod hfc it really doesn't make them that much powerful and the amping only gave Grommash more strenght and as you previosly talked strenght really couldn't counter magic.

Also wc3 dialogue mannoroth said he would love face cenarius again and knowing mannoroths personality he is either stronger or the same level and during WotA mannoroths was pierced by one of strongest and enchanted elven blades (varo'thens sword) and it only caused mannoroth to sufer more damage and it still took malfurion, illidan and alliance heroes to take him out and Illidan enchanted the alliance heroes with powers from well of eternity.

And yet he got fodderized two time by a non amped orc warrior. As long as those anti feats exist , i can't take manno seriously .

[Nurvus]

In W3, Mannoroth nevertheless tried to fend off Grommash's attack, but the blow of this orc was too strong to repel even such a demon. I agree that a lot depends on the fighter himself, but you should not think that the level of strength of the weapon itself gives the fighter nothing.
Then Broxigar would not have wounded Sargeras with his usual hammer.
And as an example, the same Broxigar fight against Captain Varo'then (novel The War of the Ancients) in which the elf cleverly (like Sylvanas against Varok) cut the orc, who almost beheaded the elf later with the Cenarius axe. But could he hurt Sargeras without that enchanted ax. The question is open. It all depends on the fighter and on the weapon. And Bolvar will defeat Mannoroth due to the better use of magic)).

My point is precicely that it depends on the fighter.

Grommash was super strong, and the weapon was good enough to make use of his strength, enough to penetrate mannoroth's defenses.

However, Sylvanas and Bolvar do not simply "tank" attacks like big foes such as Mannoroth do (or did), which is why a better weapon doesn't mean much in terms of offense.
It just needs to be good enough not to break in an exchange of blows.

[Terongor]

And yet he got fodderized two time by a non amped orc warrior. As long as those anti feats exist , i can't take manno seriously .

Well thats your oppinion but its not backed by facts. Thrall in wc3 managed to hurt archimonde but mannoroth blocked thralls attack like it was nothing and Grom was amped he had the red glow in his eyes.

Heck everyone has antifeats arthas was supposed to be a master sword man but arthas was losing 1v1 sword fight to a mage.