So The No Major Class changes in a Patch thing....

[Bane-Thunder-God]

I feel like since they decided to no longer have any major class changes or overhauls during the big patches it feels like the patches lack any real significance outside of the additional content.

I think some of the class changes/overhauls made it exciting to come back in major patch and play your fave class or try a class you never played/put down before.

How do you guys feel about their decision to no longer make major class changes via these major patches?

[kranur]

Major class changes should only happen if certain classes don't actually work or are too far out of line. Otherwise why screw with them?
Why does class changes matter on classes you've never played before matter should you decide to try one?

[Kyphael]

You think that's bad? We're about to get expansions that don't get major selling features! Depending on how engaging Shadowlands' zones are, Shadowlands just looks like a big patch. And let's not kid ourselves on Covenants, that's just rep factions with backpacks.

[Amaterasu65]

I want them back if they are needed. Arcane mage needs major changes, an overhaul perhaps, and waiting for the next expansion for the issue to be addressed (or to be skipped again with just a raw % buff) sucks and it's like spitting on the customers' faces. We don't pay for half-assed content, especially when it's about classes, the medium through which we experience everything else. I'm sure there are other specs that suffer horribly from losing the Legion Artifacts and still haven't been fixed.

[Nfinitii]

I feel like since they decided to no longer have any major class changes or overhauls during the big patches it feels like the patches lack any real significance outside of the additional content.

I think some of the class changes/overhauls made it exciting to come back in major patch and play your fave class or try a class you never played/put down before.

How do you guys feel about their decision to no longer make major class changes via these major patches?

This really isn’t a new thing. But I can understand y, I’m sure many ppl would be upset if all of a sudden their class drastically changed between patches.

[Mozu]

This really isn’t a new thing. But I can understand y, I’m sure many ppl would be upset if all of a sudden their class drastically changed between patches.

People get upset if a mob's fingernails are a different color. At some point I wish they would stop walking on eggshells and make the game.

[Bellows]

Either way works for me. We have a week before raid content is released after a patch, so that feels like plenty of time to get accustomed to new playstyles if they want to do major overhauls. On the flip side, if the spec I'm playing isn't engaging, I can just switch specs/classes. We know well in advance what class changes are being planned for a patch, so you can get a different toon up to speed.

Now if you're a devotee to a particular spec, I don't know what to tell you. You've chosen a path that will see some ups and downs.

[Cracked]

This is so dumb, because there should be changes in classes, every time.

Just as food for thought, when Shadowlands drops, BfA will have been 2 years old, the Fire Mage talent tree features .. wait for it.. 7 talent choices that have never come close to being not just viable, but even useful! What the fuck is the point of even having those spells if they either don't work well at all with the spec or are severely undertuned for YEARS?

[Laqweeta]

This is so dumb, because there should be changes in classes, every time.

Just as food for thought, when Shadowlands drops, BfA will have been 2 years old, the Fire Mage talent tree features .. wait for it.. 7 talent choices that have never come close to being not just viable, but even useful! What the fuck is the point of even having those spells if they either don't work well at all with the spec or are severely undertuned for YEARS?

Time played metrics. Unaware players take the time to level it to 120 just to find out it's worthless

[CrawlFromThePit]

I feel like since they decided to no longer have any major class changes or overhauls during the big patches it feels like the patches lack any real significance outside of the additional content.

I think some of the class changes/overhauls made it exciting to come back in major patch and play your fave class or try a class you never played/put down before.

How do you guys feel about their decision to no longer make major class changes via these major patches?

I agree but that's something that lasted like a day or two anyway. You see the change then you just get back to playing as you normally would. Maybe it takes away from the hype before patch comes out but long term is changes nothing.

[Nynax]

I want them back if they are needed. Arcane mage needs major changes, an overhaul perhaps, and waiting for the next expansion for the issue to be addressed (or to be skipped again with just a raw % buff) sucks and it's like spitting on the customers' faces. We don't pay for half-assed content, especially when it's about classes, the medium through which we experience everything else. I'm sure there are other specs that suffer horribly from losing the Legion Artifacts and still haven't been fixed.

I think this is such a good point, and really says as to why BFA is so terribly received in-spite of its similarities to Legion.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

I think this is such a good point, and really says as to why BFA is so terribly received in-spite of its similarities to Legion.

So true. I think that's been my feeling with BFA as well. Not able to fully enjoy the classes I play thus not enjoying BFA...

[muto]

Yes the lowest 5 performing classes across the spectrum should get major updates every patch. Some classes need a complete redesign like Arcane Mage.

[Kelathos]

I think this is such a good point, and really says as to why BFA is so terribly received in-spite of its similarities to Legion.

Gutting our classes / gameplay with the removal of Artifact Weapons is a large issue.

[Amaterasu65]

Yes the lowest 5 performing classes across the spectrum should get major updates every patch. Some classes need a complete redesign like Arcane Mage.

Even if Arcane was topping the meters (some sims pinpoint to Arcane getting strong this patch), the gameplay is literally 1button spam. It's not fun.

[Amariw]

Its not what's important. What's important is if a given class design is fun. If it is, changing it is disheartening and kinda annoying, even if the alternative is alright (wod to legion afflock for instance) or really depressing if the alternative is bad (wod to legion demolock...).

Redesigns for sake of excitement is an unsustainable and generally disruptive design paradigm that does far more harm then good.

Edit:
And not redesigning during a really bad period might be bad, but i can understand their lack of ability to handle the resulting balance tuning during an ongoing expansion where pve and pvp are already happening.

[Krinf]

I don't think major overhauls are needed inbetween patches.
When a spec under- or overperforms, balance changes need to happen.

But major changes that significantly alter the playstyle of a spec, should be left to expansion reworks, unless all specs are balanced across the board (which is definitely asking for to much).

[Kalisandra]

I say "Yes", because while many of the really underperforming specs in early BfA (Elemental, for example) were fixed by introducing over-powered azerite traits (and a trait is over-powered when it makes an item better than one 15-30 ilevels higher that doesn't have it), that's kludgy and it doesn't always work. For example, as others have said, Arcane can't be fixed by bigger numbers from the azerite traits, or even from tweaking the tuning on its spells, because the rotation is fundamentally busted (and it's busted because they gutted the Legion version and ignored the beta feedback on the matter).

Back in Cata, Ret was broken to start, and they had to take Holy Power generation of Mastery and redo the Mastery and Holy Power generation completely. If Ghostcrawler (who I quite liked, for all ups and downs we had with him) and his team had had a rule of 'no major changes to classes', Retribution and Holy (to a lesser extent) Paladins, and Elemental and Resto Shamans would have blown for all of Cataclysm. As it was, by Firelands they were all at least functional, and by the end of Cata they were all quite good to excellent.

Their solution currently seems to be to simply forget about badly designed specs as long as a class has one that performs okay (whether it plays okay or not). There have always been players who would hold their nose and play whatever spec gave the best numbers, no matter how awful it was to play, and there have always been people who would only play specs they found fun, and to hell with performance. However, I don't think I've ever heard people complaining so much about having to do one or the other as they have been this expac.

- - - Updated - - -

Its not what's important. What's important is if a given class design is fun. If it is, changing it is disheartening and kinda annoying, even if the alternative is alright (wod to legion afflock for instance) or really depressing if the alternative is bad (wod to legion demolock...).

I vastly preferred the Legion afflock to the WoD one... The BfA one, OTOH, is awful.

[Kyphael]

No matter how many times people say Shadowlands doesn't have features, it simply doesn't make it true

It's too early to tell, but the bare bones preview we got compared to previous expansion announcements doesn't leave much room for optimism.

[Kyphael]

I'm very optimistic, I've wanted a fix everything expansion for a long time - it bodes well for the game's future that they want to bring it into the next decade as opposed to just adding the new shiny thing that will get boring for most people after 2 weeks

The problem with a "fix everything" scenario is, they've devoted time to it before, and there's never a permanent fix or even a guarantee it'll be fixed this time or for very long. In 15 years, there have been brief times when classes were at optimum play and universally enjoyed. They're always fine tuning and retooling but there's never a permanent fix. It's just the nature of the beast, but when you forsake new content to fix what's technically in the eyes of the fickle "always broken", then what are you sacrificing for over the long haul? A new class is a good hook and adds replay value. Most players who don't play like elitist jerks don't care about whether or not every mage spec has frostbolt, the ret paladin rotation or the state of the elemental shaman, but if they're going this route, than those advocating for a "fix everything" expansion better hold Blizzard accountable for it if classes aren't in the best state of play they've ever been in Shadolands because there will be no room for excuses then. We'll have nothing new, same shit, slightly tweaked, and egg on our faces.