Happy 25th birthday Star Trek Voyager

[Kokolums]

Interesting chart of all Trek series from TNG to ENT



Represents exactly how I feel. TNG was excellent. The rest were trash. Ratings just dropping relentlessly.

[Biomega]

Interesting chart of all Trek series from TNG to ENT

Represents exactly how I feel. TNG was excellent. The rest were trash. Ratings just dropping relentlessly.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the overall sentiment, ratings are a very tricky metric to go by. First, because they measure popularity rather than quality (which in itself is a vague thing in the first place). Second, because they measure it relative to what else was on TV at the time; which is especially problematic when comparing over long stretches of time. Now, that doesn't of course mean that it's not a good reflection of certain characteristics of quality (it is, because a lot factors out over time/sample size) but it also doesn't mean it's free from skew and bias (it very much isn't).

In particular, I suspect the drop from TNG to DS9 is because of two things: age of target audience, and change of vision. The people who started with TOS had a particular idea about what Star Trek is, and DS9 didn't work too well with that. The TOS + TNG crowd and the TNG + DS9 crowd have an overlap (TNG), but usually have very different appreciation for very different things in Star Trek - and they're usually from different generations [I fought hard not to say "from the next generation", please be proud of me].

The problem, really, is that the momentum they gathered with DS9's new direction didn't properly carry over to VOY for various reasons. VOY is in many respects a half-baked project, put together quickly in an attempt to recoup some of the noticeable losses for the franchise - you'll notice it came out shortly after TNG ended, and after it was clear that DS9 suffered a precipitous drop in ratings, but the time between that realization and VOY's release is very short, suggesting a rush job. VOY had no clear vision and no long-term strategy - which is exactly what J. Michael Straczynski identified as a core problem of SF shows at the time, and subsequently used to pitch Babylon 5 (which, allegedly, led Paramount to develop DS9 based off his pitch). VOY is a very good showcase of why this is important, and what can go wrong if you don't plan ahead. They admit as much in interviews and supplementary materials, the villain problem etc. that resulted from the premise are issues that they simply should have spent more time working out.

...there's no excuse for ENT, though.

[Kokolums]

While I don't necessarily disagree with the overall sentiment, ratings are a very tricky metric to go by. First, because they measure popularity rather than quality (which in itself is a vague thing in the first place). Second, because they measure it relative to what else was on TV at the time; which is especially problematic when comparing over long stretches of time. Now, that doesn't of course mean that it's not a good reflection of certain characteristics of quality (it is, because a lot factors out over time/sample size) but it also doesn't mean it's free from skew and bias (it very much isn't).

In particular, I suspect the drop from TNG to DS9 is because of two things: age of target audience, and change of vision. The people who started with TOS had a particular idea about what Star Trek is, and DS9 didn't work too well with that. The TOS + TNG crowd and the TNG + DS9 crowd have an overlap (TNG), but usually have very different appreciation for very different things in Star Trek - and they're usually from different generations [I fought hard not to say "from the next generation", please be proud of me].

The problem, really, is that the momentum they gathered with DS9's new direction didn't properly carry over to VOY for various reasons. VOY is in many respects a half-baked project, put together quickly in an attempt to recoup some of the noticeable losses for the franchise - you'll notice it came out shortly after TNG ended, and after it was clear that DS9 suffered a precipitous drop in ratings, but the time between that realization and VOY's release is very short, suggesting a rush job. VOY had no clear vision and no long-term strategy - which is exactly what J. Michael Straczynski identified as a core problem of SF shows at the time, and subsequently used to pitch Babylon 5 (which, allegedly, led Paramount to develop DS9 based off his pitch). VOY is a very good showcase of why this is important, and what can go wrong if you don't plan ahead. They admit as much in interviews and supplementary materials, the villain problem etc. that resulted from the premise are issues that they simply should have spent more time working out.

...there's no excuse for ENT, though.

Like I say, honestly, for me, the characters in DS9, VOY and ENT were terrible. I was bored with them. Didn't care if they lived or died. The actors were miscast across the board. The stark difference becomes very obvious in the Q episodes as John DeLancie is an amazing actor. He dominates every scene he is in. He takes the most boring, pedantic lines and knows how to juice it.

[Skizzit]

Interesting chart of all Trek series from TNG to ENT

[IMG]http://www.madmind.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/startreknielsenratingaverage2.jpg/IMG]

Represents exactly how I feel. TNG was excellent. The rest were trash. Ratings just dropping relentlessly.

A big part of that is because DS9 really isn't a very good Trek show, especially if you look at it compared to what Roddenberry envisioned the series as. He wanted a utopian series where everyone gets along in order to build a better future and DS9 is a series about conflict. I can easily see why the TNG audience didn't follow it over. Also, the first season or so of DS9 is quite poor. They really had no idea what to do with Sisko at first and he felt too much like just a lesser Piccard. They seemed to have ideas, like the fact Sisko was a man forged by war while Piccard was a man forged by peace, but didn't really put it together at first. And then they had Sisko just punch Q in the face. I think that moment really began to so the difference between the two and they built on that.

DS9 is the Trek series that I think has really grown the most in popularity since it's release. Everyone knew TOS and TNG were both great even while they were airing and both VOY and ENT have their fans, but many people, like myself, now view DS9 as the best written series in hindsight. Not the best version of Trek per say, but the best written series as a whole package.

P.S. Chief O'Brien is the best character in the entire franchise.

[jakeic]

Voyager was god awful, it’s surprising that it’s ratings were comparable to DS9.

[Rendark]

Voyager is the only star trek show i've ever watched. Hard to believe it's been 25 years.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

A big part of that is because DS9 really isn't a very good Trek show, especially if you look at it compared to what Roddenberry envisioned the series as. He wanted a utopian series where everyone gets along in order to build a better future and DS9 is a series about conflict. I can easily see why the TNG audience didn't follow it over.

DS9 also suffered from continuity lockout, during a time when it was difficult to stay caught up on serialized television. You didn't have DVRs back then which automatically recorded shows for you. If you missed an episode, you had no idea if you missed a major plot development in the saga.

If you tune into the later episodes of DS9, it's hard to care about what's happening, especially as the overall plot supersedes episodic stories. Sure, you can figure out that the protagonists are part of a Federation and that the antagonists are the Dominion, but you context of the story isn't really defined. If the Federation is at war with the Dominion and the Maquis are fighting the Dominion, why are the protagonists hunting down the Maquis? Shouldn't they be allies now? (Admittedly, that didn't make sense even in context and was just straight up bad writing). Why is it such a big deal that Kasidy is secretly giving them relief supplies? Wait a minute, wasn't Cardassia supposed to be its own nation? Why is it under this "Dominion" now? Wait a minute, didn't Odo want to find out about where he came from? Why does he hate his own species now? Why is it so bad if they are apart of the enemy faction? Wait a minute, how did the Federation lose DS9? Oh cool, they have a ship called the Defiant now. Wait a minute, why can't they use the Defiant? Did they lose it in an episode I missed?

You can tune into pretty much any episode of TOS and TNG and have a fun time. They are episodic stories with no overall plotline to follow.

[Raelyn]

DS9 for me was the best series. While you gotta love TNG, there were too many dull "filler" episodes in my eyes, although the cast always carried them off well.

I think the ratings graph for me doesn't really give the full picture, as back when TNG was current, there was no Netflix or other such services (at the very most they were in their infancy). After that, people had way more choice over what to watch and TV in general lost ratings hand over foot.

[Skizzit]

I think the ratings graph for me doesn't really give the full picture, as back when TNG was current, there was no Netflix or other such services (at the very most they were in their infancy). After that, people had way more choice over what to watch and TV in general lost ratings hand over foot.

None of the series existed when Netflix was a thing. The only one that was even around when DVRs were available was ENT and just barely. Tivo was not released until March of 1999, the same year DS9 ended. VOY ended in 2001 and ENT ran from 2001-2005. It wasn't really until the late 2000's that they started to become popular. Yes, Netflix as a company was founded in '97 but that was only for DVD rentals. Netflix's streaming began the same year as Hulu, 2007. None of that would have had much of an impact on any Trek show's ratings.

[the game]

DS9 also suffered from continuity lockout, during a time when it was difficult to stay caught up on serialized television. You didn't have DVRs back then which automatically recorded shows for you. If you missed an episode, you had no idea if you missed a major plot development in the saga.

If you tune into the later episodes of DS9, it's hard to care about what's happening, especially as the overall plot supersedes episodic stories. Sure, you can figure out that the protagonists are part of a Federation and that the antagonists are the Dominion, but you context of the story isn't really defined. If the Federation is at war with the Dominion and the Maquis are fighting the Dominion, why are the protagonists hunting down the Maquis? Shouldn't they be allies now? (Admittedly, that didn't make sense even in context and was just straight up bad writing). Why is it such a big deal that Kasidy is secretly giving them relief supplies? Wait a minute, wasn't Cardassia supposed to be its own nation? Why is it under this "Dominion" now? Wait a minute, didn't Odo want to find out about where he came from? Why does he hate his own species now? Why is it so bad if they are apart of the enemy faction? Wait a minute, how did the Federation lose DS9? Oh cool, they have a ship called the Defiant now. Wait a minute, why can't they use the Defiant? Did they lose it in an episode I missed?

You can tune into pretty much any episode of TOS and TNG and have a fun time. They are episodic stories with no overall plotline to follow.

The dominion war was brilliant story line.

[Daevelian]

Oh hey, Voyager, i remember that one, didn't mind it. Definitely my second favourite Star Trek series, second only to TNG.

I remember being glad that they went back to being actual Star Trek after that abomination called Deep Space Nine. (Seriously, it's a god damned soap opera in space, who cares?)

[De Lupe]

Voyager will always be my favorite.

Love the premise.
Love Neelix.
Love Tuvok.
Love the Doctor.
Love 7 of 9.
And, most importantly, love Janeway.

It's got flaws aplenty, but it's still my go-to when I think ST with TNG being the only other contender.

[Kokolums]

DS9 for me was the best series. While you gotta love TNG, there were too many dull "filler" episodes in my eyes, although the cast always carried them off well.

I think the ratings graph for me doesn't really give the full picture, as back when TNG was current, there was no Netflix or other such services (at the very most they were in their infancy). After that, people had way more choice over what to watch and TV in general lost ratings hand over foot.

Streaming wasn't even a thing until the maybe the late 2000s or early 2010s. By then all Trek was off the air.

What DID start showing up was rival syndicated TV shows like Baywatch in 1989, Babylon 5 in 1993, Farscape in 1993, Buffy the Vampire Slayer in 1994, Hercules in 1995, Xena in 1995, Sliders in 1995, Mystery Science Theater 3000 in 1997 and Stargate in 1997 which fragmented the market.

Syndicated TV sci-fi / fantasy drama seemed to die right about when Who Wants to be a Millionaire debuted as a mammoth ratings smash in 1999 hosted by Regis Philbin. Game shows as VASTLY cheaper to make, and suddenly production houses were peddling different game shows in syndication all over the place. American Idol blasted onto the scene in 2002 and it was all over. Except for Battlestar Galactica as a smash hit in 2003.

A revival arrived with LOST in 2004, but that was network TV. Pretty soon, networks were copying the LOST formula with shows like The Event, Fringe, etc. but none of them caught on.

Currently there is a second wave of Syndicated TV sci-fi / fantasy drama on cable spurred by the success of Eureka in 2006 on the SYFY network. We then got Warehouse 13 on cable in 2009. Then the supermassive success of the Walking Dead hit AMC. This era also had shows like Outlander in 2014, the 100 in 2014, 12 monkeys in 2015, Colony in 2015 and the Expanse in 2015, Westworld in 2016.

Streaming started getting into it with Jessica Jones in 2016 on Netflix and the Handmaid's Tale in 2017 on Hulu and Lost in Space in 2018 on Netflix and the Mandalorian on Disney+.

Network TV got back in the game with Gotham in 2014 which completed 5 years and 100 episodes on network TV. Then there is Lucifer in 2016. Star Trek Discovery in 2017 and The Orville in 2018.

Also fitting in here is the entire DC comics universe on the WB starting with Arrow in 2012.

2020 sees Star Trek: Picard, Snowpiecer, War of the Worlds, and Avenue 5 among others.

That's a lot (whew) and I'm sure I'm missing many which will undoubtedly be posted after me. (just don't say Jack of All Trades and Cleopatra 2525!)

I should start a thread asking people to rank all of these sci-fi shows, but the list is too long lol.

[Kokolums]

Here's something for the Voyager fans

[deepr]

Alright, just another opinion..... a very uneven show, with half of the cast being close to terrible, while the other half was pretty great... lots of stinker episodes and average ones but also a number of great episodes. VOY is considerably inferior to both DS9 and TNG, but still way better than any Trek that came after it.

[Jetstream]

I loved everything about Voyager except for the writing.

Interesting chart of all Trek series from TNG to ENT



Represents exactly how I feel. TNG was excellent. The rest were trash. Ratings just dropping relentlessly.

Bugger that noise. All of those shows had their good points, and not one of them was as bad as season 1 and 2 of TNG. TNG has some of the best and some of the worst parts of Trek history.

[Ivanstone]

What DID start showing up was rival syndicated TV shows like Baywatch in 1989, Babylon 5 in 1993, Farscape in 1993, Buffy the Vampire Slayer in 1994, Hercules in 1995, Xena in 1995, Sliders in 1995, Mystery Science Theater 3000 in 1997 and Stargate in 1997 which fragmented the market.

So is it because they were bad shows (as you implied in a previous post) or is it because of increased competition from other shows?

Star Trek's decline really happened for two reasons. Competition from other shows and over-saturation. Having a better Trek show helps but you won't have to look very hard to find weak shows that last a long time. Having two Trek shows at the same time? Not such a

Jack of All Trades

Was excellent and Bruce Campbell is fantastic.

[Redwyrm]

While Voyager is my third favorite Star Trek series (behind TNG and DS9) it had some great episodes.

In particular the "Year of Hell" and "Timeless"

[Val the Moofia Boss]

So is it because they were bad shows (as you implied in a previous post) or is it because of increased competition from other shows?

Star Trek's decline really happened for two reasons. Competition from other shows and over-saturation. Having a better Trek show helps but you won't have to look very hard to find weak shows that last a long time. Having two Trek shows at the same time? Not such a


Was excellent and Bruce Campbell is fantastic.

The problem began around season 7 of TNG. It was at that point the writing quality of Star Trek episodes began to decline. After 250 something episodes, the writers began running out of ideas, and the episodes started becoming formulaic and repetitive. Early DS9, which was heavy on episodic episodes, showed symptoms of this. It's why I mostly stick to the latter half, when they focus on the serialized story. Voyager and ENT suffered heavily from this, as almost all of the episodes were retreading material already covered in TOS and TNG, just with different coats of paints.

It's a problem all long running series run into. Eventually, you just run out of natural material to explore. Sure, there is the odd great episode here and there, but it can't make up for the rest of the season as a whole. NuBSG became repetitive by the end of the first season, and there is nothing worth watching after season 2. SG1 became repetitive after season 5, and SGA began running into a rut after season 2.

Had Firefly not been cancelled when it was, it almost certainly would have fallen victim to the same problems faced by its contemporaries and wouldn't have been hailed as a cult classic today.

[Kokolums]

So is it because they were bad shows (as you implied in a previous post) or is it because of increased competition from other shows?

I spoke from my own experience that the rest were trash. But the reason the ratings dropped could be for other reasons, sure. I didn't even mention timeslot. I just said the ratings drop aligned with my own experience.