[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Oh man, that's a real cool story. So did you want to give the Basics of Project scope speech now?

You think Bill Gates was SCRUM certified? LoL you talk about big projects yet you dont know what a SCRUM team is or never opened the Project Manager Book of Knowledge? Kid, you don't even know what a 'BIG PROJECT" entails.

Stay in your lane.

Someone is has a bit of an ego here.

[MrAnderson]

Good for CIG then. But if they never had to rebuild the engine, why were there so many delays supposedly related to switching the engine...when they never actually switched the engine, just the license?

Or am I missing something?

There's been not "many delays supposedly related to switching the engine". There's been delays because due to the increase in scope and features they have been developing the engine with tech that allows for the gameplay they want for the game without compromising on it's main pilars. No loading screens, seamless planetary landings, multiple physics grids and maximum graphical fidelity all in an online environment.

[Aliven]

Still it can lead to some good, when it's targeted into something positive. A lot of personal biography's from top athletes and performers in general mention an obsession to win or to just be the best. Sure there's also the downsides, physical and psychological. That's why it's special and people care. If it was easy anyone could do it and no one would care.



Are you ashamed to admit you have a hard time seeing Star Citizen getting juicy updates while waiting for Elite updates?

I guess it's hard to understand a post about a video-game when you don't play video-games.

Being drug addict is easy and people care.

Also, doing professional sport is also very unhealthy and destructive.

its not special, ist negative traid. You can steal and give to the poor but you are still a thief, stealing is negative.

[1001]

Well considering that if you spent half the time you spent shitposting about Star Citizen into Elite you would probably be Tripple-Elite by now i'd say it shows what kinda hobbies you have.

I don't like Elite that much and I prefer playing a variety of games instead of locking myself into a single one. It seems to me that because you are a diehard fanboi you expect everyone else to be diehard fanbois as well, that's not reality though.

Besides the faulty generalisation that's peachy coming from a fanboy of Elite, a game known by catering to a more antiquated player base aka forum-dads with the game design decisions to match.

And there you go proving my point. Thanks for that.

[Katchii]

There's been not "many delays supposedly related to switching the engine". There's been delays because due to the increase in scope and features they have been developing the engine with tech that allows for the gameplay they want for the game without compromising on it's main pilars. No loading screens, seamless planetary landings, multiple physics grids and maximum graphical fidelity all in an online environment.

My mistake then, I thought I remembered hearing/seeing that some of the delays back in ~2015-2016 were due to the engine switch. not to work being done on the engine.

[Liftinmammals]

Except your full of laughable shit right now.

I work at KPMG, maybe you've heard of us
And have been working on multi billion dollar SAP and Peoplesoft integration and interfacing applications. My title is Sr Enterprise Developer Mgt. . .

You don't miss deadlines and push back development, and you sure as fuck dont increase the project scope of a large project at any fucking point during the development phase. Thats how you get fired. Do you have any idea how fucking stupid you sound right now? Im literally holding my hands up asking myself "what the fuck did I just read?".

But please kid, tell me more about the "Basics of project scope". As I'm PMBOK and SCRUM certified, I cant wait to read your explanation.

Thanks for proving to us all that you're not a real developer.

Regardless of anything, it's unfortunate you're even in the position you're in given how you speak to people and conduct yourself. I'd straighten up fast and learn to be a stronger leader, son. The people under you deserve someone of better integrity. Get after it.

[Wilian]

Its a bit late in the game now to complain about how long its taken, we have a playable version of the game and sometime its a little buggy after a new patch but the game is coming along.

Ah so we are back to Schrödinger's Citizen; It's released whenever it's convenient for the argument.

[Mister K]

Oh man, that's a real cool story. So did you want to give the Basics of Project scope speech now?

You think Bill Gates was SCRUM certified? LoL you talk about big projects and 'scope' yet you dont know what a SCRUM team is or never opened the Project Manager Book of Knowledge? Kid, you don't even know what a 'BIG PROJECT" entails.

Stay in your lane.

You didn't understand the "Bill Gates" analogy, straight over your head. SCRUM?? is that like SCRIM or skirmishing where you fight for conquest with your keyboard and mice? Sorry confused.

DM me your LinkedIn or maybe a Git account (most self respected devs will have one), this is getting rather interesting. If you really wanna flex the "I am so superior than you". With that attitude you are not Senior Mgr of fuck all unless you part of a self gratified dev firm who tells their junior staff that they are all managers of their section so it seems they are important to clients. Lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah so we are back to Schrödinger's Citizen; It's released whenever it's convenient for the argument.

Publicly funded tech demo/project. It's keeping people employed, gamers (apparently happy), potentially improving the industry as a whole and moving the industry forward. If it flops, it will be a major fuckup but the tech produced will HOPEFULLY (if CR is sane) be made open source or used in other future games/licensed.

3 years on and the same conversion in this thread goes round in circles. Guess people love to beat round the bush.

- - - Updated - - -

My mistake then, I thought I remembered hearing/seeing that some of the delays back in ~2015-2016 were due to the engine switch. not to work being done on the engine.

I thought that too.

[Beazy]

You didn't understand the "Bill Gates" analogy, straight over your head. SCRUM?? is that like SCRIM or skirmishing where you fight for conquest with your keyboard and mice? Sorry confused.

DM me your LinkedIn or maybe a Git account (most self respected devs will have one), this is getting rather interesting. If you really wanna flex the "I am so superior than you". With that attitude you are not Senior Mgr of fuck all unless you part of a self gratified dev firm who tells their junior staff that they are all managers of their section so it seems they are important to clients. Lol.

LoL LinkedIn. Even more funny that you think financial institutions use a public git repository. You really are a Jr developer aren't you. LoL
/facepalm

Dude are you going to school me on Project Scopes or are you going to continue to type like a bumbling moron?

Please keep typing. its making much more easy to identify you as an absolute bullshit artist.

[CogsNCocks]

My mistake then, I thought I remembered hearing/seeing that some of the delays back in ~2015-2016 were due to the engine switch. not to work being done on the engine.

Early delays were due to converting the engine to support 64 bit.

[Edge-]

Early delays were due to converting the engine to support 64 bit.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/c...m-The-Chairman

Sauce for context, this is from July 2015.

[Majestic12]

Except your full of laughable shit right now.

I work at KPMG, maybe you've heard of us
And have been working on multi billion dollar SAP and Peoplesoft integration and interfacing applications. My title is Sr Enterprise Developer Mgt. . .

You don't miss deadlines and push back development, and you sure as fuck dont increase the project scope of a large project at any fucking point during the development phase. Thats how you get fired. Do you have any idea how fucking stupid you sound right now? Im literally holding my hands up asking myself "what the fuck did I just read?".

But please kid, tell me more about the "Basics of project scope". As I'm PMBOK and SCRUM certified, I cant wait to read your explanation.

Thanks for proving to us all that you're not a real developer.

Normally, I'd agree with your notion that you do not miss deadlines and push back development too much. In a traditional organization heads would roll for it. I've seen many project leads get fired for messing things up in my time. Star Citizen isn't a normal project though. When Chris fucks up dates, nothing happens. He doesn't answer to anybody. That's basically the whole point with the crowdfunding. No publisher, no restrictions.

When CIG fails dates or promises, worst you get is a shitton of rage. The whales keep buying shit as usual and the drama blows over.

Bottom line is: Yes, SC has been mismanaged as a project. No, nothing will be done about it.

- - - Updated - - -

DM me your LinkedIn or maybe a Git account (most self respected devs will have one), this is getting rather interesting. If you really wanna flex the "I am so superior than you". With that attitude you are not Senior Mgr of fuck all unless you part of a self gratified dev firm who tells their junior staff that they are all managers of their section so it seems they are important to clients. Lol.

He sounds like a traditional manager at a traditional organization. CIG is not that and Chris doesn't answer to anybody.

That said, you do come across as a bit cocky in that post for a junior front end dev. Nobody is going to throw around GIT repos or their personal LI-pages on an anonymous forum.

[MrAnderson]

Doesn't necessarily mean there's mismanagement. Normal game development is known for missed deadlines and push backs. There's many documented IRL examples.
The bigger and complex the project is the harder it is to predict how long it will take.
It's only natural that a crowdfunded games will go through the same problems normal studios face and then some.

[Mister K]

LoL LinkedIn. Even more funny that you think financial institutions use a public git repository. You really are a Jr developer aren't you. LoL
/facepalm

Dude are you going to school me on Project Scopes or are you going to continue to type like a bumbling moron?

Please keep typing. its making much more easy to identify you as an absolute bullshit artist.

I wouldn't of though your firm would, obviously not. I am talking about personal projects or contributions to communities, surely you would have some unless you clock of at the end of the day.

No actually, a senior and probably stuck there for a long while (leads code less but work more).

That said, you do come across as a bit cocky in that post for a junior front end dev. Nobody is going to throw around GIT repos or their personal LI-pages on an anonymous forum.

With startups, deadlines are often missed when scope is changed and game development especially.


ON TOPIC:

That is the whole argument here. Star Citizen had many holdups that could have been prevented, but regardless of that, the game is always adding new technologies. Obviously, they didn't have the whole roadmap layed out from start, or at least not completely and as time went on, changes had to occur. It's way more complex than any web app which is usually fairly simple as most likely, it has been done before so the problems can be foreseen.

It's not like they are making just another MMO, so framework has been done before. I think they should have certainly been more pessimistic about their release dates early on, but they probably don't even know.

It's like WoW, but instead of finalising certain core and expanding from there, it seems they want the "perfect most complete" game released straight away.

The server tech is obviously no joke to work seamlessly with XXX amount of players in one zone. Unfortunately no real game devs circulate these forums, otherwise they would be able to comment.

Anywhich way. All that matters is that every few months game grows bigger and bigger. However, the Verse will be a very dead/boring place without any activities/missions and if all it relies is on player to player interaction we have a problem.

-----------

Outcome 1: Game "succeeds" and has 15,000 to 100,000 monthly players, more studios will take the risk and overall the whole industry has been pushed forward as the "AAA" is a lot more to live up to (inc Cyberpunk 2077, hopefully they do well too).

Outcome 2: The game is in dev hell and never actually releases. The player count will be low and eventually funds may start decreasing. They could still develop the game with limited funds depending how much server expenses are and how many devs are required to keep general patching and development alive (see SWTOR). I doubt they will need 3D artists, designers, marketing forever and once "most" of the game is completed, team size might reduce. Fewer updates, less and less people.

Outcome 3: It fails, but Chris Roberts has full control over the IP and releases it to X company or public so that other studios can be pickup their tech OR CR will license the tech. This is a relatively good scenario.

[Edge-]

Folks, let's keep the personal, off-topic, debates out of this thread please. Thanks.

[Mister K]

Doesn't necessarily mean there's mismanagement. Normal game development is known for missed deadlines and push backs. There's many documented IRL examples.
The bigger and complex the project is the harder it is to predict how long it will take.
It's only natural that a crowdfunded games will go through the same problems normal studios face and then some.

Mismanagement could have been due to:

1) Working on worthless features such as animations of entering ships. While adding to realism, it could have been added at a later stage.
2) The whole engine switch.
3) God knows what else, I don't follow the drama closely. Most of it is in this sub which I check every X months (and it's the same debate since this thread has been created LOL).

and yeah basically. You can't have both unless the vision is small. Major studios who have dependants will have release deadlines and even if missed, aren't going to go into years but at most months. However, those deadlines can be HUGELY detrimental to the overall quality of the game.

The crowdfunded "public" projects will face the opposite. While no deadlines the finance could be lower and or getting carried away with never ending feature list for the "betterment" of the gamer.

[Odeezee]

Is SC any good? I've played the X-series of games and Elite Dangerous. Will I enjoy it?

that depends on what you are looking for in a game. Star Citizen has some gameloops and things to spend your currency on, but you have to remember that the game is still in alpha so bugs and instability can be abound. if you have not already backed the game i would wait until they have a Free-Fly Weekend where you can try the game for free and see if your system can run it and if you like it. let me know if you have more specific questions.

I like option "D":
Get what you have working into a releasable solid product and all those scrapped ideas you mention gets moved to an expansion for later release.

no thank-you. i am so thankful that CR did not go the E: D route, it's very hard to add systems to already established code with crazy dependencies, hence why E: D still does not have ship interiors, space legs, atmo planets, etc, a lot of work has to go into reworking the code to even begin to get that all to work. i am here to let them take the time they need to get it right, i want a great game at release, i can dabble in the alpha if i just want to experience something now, which when the server tick rate is high and the bug god smiles on you is an amazing gaming experience.

about dates, CR used to publicize his goals, but stopped as tech changed and people took a goal as a release date or promise. they have learned from that and switched to the roadmap system so things are more within reach. so to still complain about it is up to you, but it's disingenuous and silly as they did offer a refund if you felt slighted until 3.0 dropped, so now it is rather childish imo, but do you.

Again, that's not a blanket excuse. That's, at best, sloppy project management. Again, you scope out your game and work on that. It can change over time, but drastic changes like this are generally uncommon specifically because of how much they can disrupt existing plans.

this is wrong and literally disproven by any major AAA title; The Witcher 3, Cyberpunk 2077, RDR2, etc, so please let's not act like what is occurring with Star Citizen is somehow an aberration.

So...CIG was giving unreasonable dates they knew they couldn't hit from the get-go? Because that's the argument you're making, and it's not really doing CIG any favors...

CR himself said he was being optomistic with the windows as they hit some tech hurdles like OCS and Bind Culling, so to say they knew from the get-go...actually never-mind keeping thinking whatever you want this shit is just tiring at this point.

I hear a LOT of you fans say this, please do elaborate.

there is no game that i know of that offers what Star Citizen is offering. just to point out a few; fps combat, space sim flight, fully traversable celestial bodies (with and without atmospheres some with simple weather, more systemic weather coming in 2 months), physicalized cargo hauling, bounty hunting of PC and NPCs with fps/space combat, mining ship and 1st-person, seamless transitions through the game world without loading screens, high fidelity of objects and interactions, there is more but you get the picture. lmk if you have a specific question about it.

There is no proof Crytek is lying either. You simply don't have the information to state a claim as fact.

Ben Parry, an employee of CIG, drew a diagram when the switch allegedly happened showing what was CE, where Lumberyard started and what CIG was using.

Here's the image



So what we can see is that LY is using 3.8 and CIG is branching off 3.7, so they are not using the LY based branch at all, in other words they are not using LY.

sorry, but this very diagram proves you wrong or have you failed to read it properly? the fork that Star Citizen took is the same under Cryengine and Lumberyard, see how the Cryengine green line is the mirror of the Lumberyard red line and they include all the same versions? and since Amazon licensed the entire Lumberyard engine, including the previous versions of Cryengine, Star Citizen basically just needed to change a few things which took one dev 2 days to get Star Citizen Lumberyard compatible. so yeah Crytek lied after having found out (1.5 years into the suit) from Amazon that they licensed it to CIG, Crytek then chose to continue the suit for another 7 months and also Crytek did not do their due diligence before bringing the suit forward to see if their claim even had merit.

my guy in 3.8 on Microtech:

[Edge-]

this is wrong and literally disproven by any major AAA title; The Witcher 3,

From what I can see, that was delayed from February to May, 2015. That's a 3 month delay, not 4+ years.

Cyberpunk 2077

Also a single announced delay, from April to September. 5 months, not 4+ years.

RDR2

Best I can tell is that's a yearlong delay, from a "Fall 2017" date pushed to "Spring 2018", then locked down on October 26 2018. So roughly a year, which is still a far cry from 4+ years with still no launch date, or even window.

etc, so please let's not act like what is occurring with Star Citizen is somehow an aberration.

Given the examples you provided, it is an "aberration".

CR himself said he was being optomistic with the windows as they hit some tech hurdles like OCS and Bind Culling, so to say they knew from the get-go...actually never-mind keeping thinking whatever you want this shit is just tiring at this point.

Optimism is one thing. This wasn't just "optimism" given how far off he was, and the fact that a part of what caused these delays was the increased scale and scope of SC that they intentionally decided to do. This was under their control, they chose to let it get out of hand for too long.

[quras]

SNIP...
no thank-you. i am so thankful that CR did not go the E: D route, it's very hard to add systems to already established code with crazy dependencies, hence why E: D still does not have ship interiors, space legs, atmo planets, etc, a lot of work has to go into reworking the code to even begin to get that all to work. i am here to let them take the time they need to get it right, i want a great game at release, i can dabble in the alpha if i just want to experience something now, which when the server tick rate is high and the bug god smiles on you is an amazing gaming experience.

about dates, CR used to publicize his goals, but stopped as tech changed and people took a goal as a release date or promise. they have learned from that and switched to the roadmap system so things are more within reach. so to still complain about it is up to you, but it's disingenuous and silly as they did offer a refund if you felt slighted until 3.0 dropped, so now it is rather childish imo, but do you.

I'd still take option D given nearly every game company in the history of game companies that plans to expand their game does so in the manner of expansions and they do it quite nicely and have done so for years and years.

SC would have no more issues than any other game company in getting an expansion out nor have any more hurdles added on then vs the plethora of game companies that produce expansions and add to their existing code for new features as well as changing existing features.

Thats a lazy mans excuse to legitimize poor management.

[Aliven]

I'd still take option D given nearly every game company in the history of game companies that plans to expand their game does so in the manner of expansions and they do it quite nicely and have done so for years and years.

SC would have no more issues than any other game company in getting an expansion out nor have any more hurdles added on then vs the plethora of game companies that produce expansions and add to their existing code for new features as well as changing existing features.

Thats a lazy mans excuse to legitimize poor management.

Actually, the way they are doing things, imagine the clusterfuck which would be them trying to add expansion to a "finished" product? It would be hilarious and epic in all the wrong way :P