Valeera and the 8.3 Cutscene

[ravenmoon]

I see that, she sided with the horde, but is it just me or does she blend in/look better alongside horde characters in orgimmar compared to when in stormwind amongst alliance characters? I watched both cutscenes and she looks like more natural/believable in horde territory amongst horde characters but looks so out of place and odd in Stormwind.

In that very vibrant red, she looks completely out of place, you couldn't be more red and slutty the way they paint her.. I am still in the Anduin <3 Valeera team, I don't understand why people would want Anduin <3 Wrathion, I mean Jaina <3 Kalecgos is weird enough. Wow doesn't have the depth build up to make that seem a cool thing like perhaps in Dragon novels.

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She is very out of place in Stormwind, and the people there are very prejudiced against her. She is however very loyal to Anduin due to her close connection to his father, and serves as a secret courier (and spy) of his in Horde territories.

What sources show they are very prejudiced against her? It's got to be somewhere right.

[Haloswin]

Wow you have a huge fanfic going on here.

That's the same vibe I got... Total fanboy/fanfic feel to it. Anytime someone professes to know how someone feel of what they think without there actually being actual references to those thoughts, actions, I just kinda lol a little. I mean, she's totally about one faction while actively working against it ... She's at best loyal the bed own agenda above everything else.

[Combatbutler]

What sources show they are very prejudiced against her? It's got to be somewhere right.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Valeera_Sanguinar

I heard the Horde is amassing its own army to head to Northrend. HOPEFULLY your Alliance and the Horde can focus their aggression on the real threat. You know, instead of each other?
Somehow I think that's unlikely to happen, if my experience here is any indication. Your people have been SO welcoming to me.
<Valeera mutters angrily to herself.>

[Ardenaso]

Also, Horde has human pirates on their side.

Alteraci Humans confirmed?

And Jaina's forces reignited the faction war at the start of the Cataclysm by invading the Barrens.

Garrosh ordered no such thing because at no point in his life did he give a damn about human civilians.

At no point did Sylvanas care about any of the things you talked about here. There was no opportunity to assassinate Arthas as he had a swarm of undead around him at all times and the Farstriders barely slowed the Scourge down.

Just because Kael changed their name doesn't magically make them not their people. Lor'themar was her second in command.

That canon Arthas book says absolutely nothing about that girl being innocent or even a farmer. For all you know she could have been a Scarlet Crusade zealot because, you know, that was the main human population the Forsaken had access too. Or even the Queen of England for that matter. Just because you invoke the canon status of the book doesn't mean you can then make whatever you want up. It means the opposite for that matter.

Well what were you expecting her to do? Sit down and have some tea with Thrall as Garrosh invades Ashenvale?

Tal'darath Grove

imgur(.)com/a/0NMJdt6 (I'm not yet allowed to post links)

Oh yes, the Alliance Bootlicking High Elves chose to not join their fel sucking and light enslaving ways and so they decided to have nothing to do with the Blood Elves and took the mana crystals they hoarded from the Blood Elves after they were exiled by Lor'themar

[ravenmoon]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Valeera_Sanguinar

I heard the Horde is amassing its own army to head to Northrend. HOPEFULLY your Alliance and the Horde can focus their aggression on the real threat. You know, instead of each other?
Somehow I think that's unlikely to happen, if my experience here is any indication. Your people have been SO welcoming to me.
<Valeera mutters angrily to herself.>

OKAY, thanks, while funny, is it the only source?

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so why is valeera in horde embassy in 8.3 cutscene? She helping both factions?

Valeera is a neutral character, people assume she is horde because she is blood elf. Like every blood elf runs a the command of the horde warchief.. pfft.. like every person is 100% loyal to their leader.

As she says when you interact with her - "My loyalties are my own"

[elbleuet]

Valeera is more Alliance than Horde.

She's loyal to the main leader of the Alliance. Her friends are Alliance, and maybe she has an Alliance boyfriend now aka Shaw

[Mehrunes]

Well what were you expecting her to do? Sit down and have some tea with Thrall as Garrosh invades Ashenvale?

Except Northwatch invasion of the Barrens predates that. Which was quite clearly conveyed by the statement that her forces reignited it. Because it would have been hard for them to do so had the fires of war already engulfed Ashenvale.

Tal'darath Grove

You specifically said that Garrosh ordered Sylvanas personally not to harm civilians (in context of invasion of Gilneas no less). Neither Sylvanas nor Gilneas had anything to do with Tal'darath. This example does nothing to support your actual claim.

EDIT: Also, Tal'darath happened after the Invasion of Gilneas.

imgur(.)com/a/0NMJdt6 (I'm not yet allowed to post links)

That imgur page shows nothing.

Oh yes, the Alliance Bootlicking High Elves chose to not join their fel sucking and light enslaving ways and so they decided to have nothing to do with the Blood Elves and took the mana crystals they hoarded from the Blood Elves after they were exiled by Lor'themar

There was no Fel sucking and Blizzard has confirmed that numerous times. Rommath and few others used Fel to rebuild Quel'Thalas quickly. The rest simply drained vermin of mana and didn't even know about what Rommath did. Not that I know what you pointing out High Elves being rebellious scum disobeying the will of their sovereign and endangering everyone around them in the process has to do with your claim.

Did you just respond to the entire board in this post?

No. And it's utterly besides the point anyway.

Frankly I didn't read that much into their post, but I read enough. "Jaina is worse than Sylvanas" and then a post to defend that claim when they are utterly rebuked well past a defensible position... they can claim whatever they want, but only a fanatic would keep arguing at that point.

You pointing out your "rebuke" was built upon you not even bothering to read what you were "replying" to (which consequently led to your blatant straw-man) doesn't validate said blatant straw-man one iota. Likewise, if you don't actually know what you were replying to, your assurances above that the post you were replying to despite not knowing what it was has been utterly rebuked is built on nothing but wishful thinking and dreams as you just admitted you haven't made the slightest effort of following the discussion for you to know that. So I'm not sure what you tried to achieve here other than advertising your argumentative indolency.

PS: I don't have any interest in "arguing" with fanatics. And I remember what it was like the last time we had a discussion. So this is a hard pass from me.

This validates your position even less. Especially since I also remember what it was like the last time we had a "discussion". I.e. how I could always support my arguments with canon sources at moment's notice while you essentially threw in the towel and just flinged meaningless remarks about "fanatics" and whatnot in lieu of real arguments, because creating an alternate reality where people correcting your inaccurate claims about Sylvanas are totes legit saying that she's a misunderstood innocent flower is more convenient that actually reviewing those claims when confronted with sources contradicting you.

Which is further corroborated by how you put me on ignore before me even writing this post. I.e. you put me on ignore for merely pointing out the fact - that you just confirmed - that you blatantly and willfully (through willful ignorance as per the content of your own aforementioned admission) misrepresented @mickybrighteyes' post.

Which plays straight into the part about argumentative indolency and why I put "discussion" in question marks. Because you're not actually interested in one. What you want is to peddle your blatantly wrong claims about Sylvanas unabated, dishonestly dismissing anyone that disagrees with your falsehoods with "So you're saying Sylvanas is InNoCeNt" straw-man the size of a small planet. So try to save face with your remarks about hard pass from you because you decided to project the "fanaticism" of Micky's claim about Jaina that I didn't even actually agree with on me all you want, but this is all so very transparent.

[Daevelian]

She strikes me as the kind of character who does what is best for herself and maybe those she grows to truly care about, not giving a rats ass about some retarded factional boundaries. To be fair, brokering peace between those two retarded factions would be in her best interests as she's less likely to die during times of peace.

This validates your position even less. Especially since I also remember what it was like the last time we had a discussion. I.e. how I could always support my arguments with canon sources at moment's notice while you essentially threw in the towel and just flinged meaningless remarks about "fanatics" and whatnot in lieu of real arguments, because creating an alternate reality where people correcting your inaccurate claims about Sylvanas are totes legit saying that she's a misunderstood innocent flower is more convenient that actually reviewing those claims when confronted with sources contradicting you.

Or it could just be that you have such a reputation on these forums that people would rather throw the argument than put up with your presence, regardless of how correct you might be?

Food for thought.

Edit: I also expect some reply like "ironic" or whatever. Don't disappoint.

[Mehrunes]

As has been stated many times already. The faction war restarted the moment Garrosh decided that Kalimdor is pure Horde territory. Jaina reacted to the massive threat he presented. Everyone knew that after he was done with the Night Elves he would turn to Theramore.

Stated by whom? Not that it matters because Jaina isn't a mind reader and didn't know of Garrosh's mental instability before he actually decided to invade the Ashenvale. And Garrosh's position evolving to Kalimdor being ancestral Horde territory came much, much later on top of that.

And I quote from the Horde's Blood Oath which has been used by you and others many times over to call Saurfang and Baine traitors:
"I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command."

Strangely it does not anywhere state that "I do only what my Warchief says if I like it." So if Garrosh decided to waste the Forsaken on this, that is his right and disobeying and secretly scheming to subvert his will is the act of a traitor. Strangely though Sylvanas is not getting remotely as much flak for this as Baine did.

Strangely enough, Sylvanas broke his orders to save her people from a deliberately wasteful campaign. So her getting less flak than Baine who went out of his way to betray the Horde to the benefit of the Alliance on more than once occasion is rather obvious.

Besides, Garrosh uses them because they are already dead, do not feel pain and are very hard to kill (outside of game mechanics), plus their pure appearance as rotting corpses can help break the spirit of the Gilneans, especially after the whole Lich King time. It's a very sound choice.
In a siege if you managed to breach the wall you will have to charge it at some point, if starving out the besieged is not an option your boss wants to take, you have to get past the walls somehow. This always costs a lot of lifes.

You're conflating his reasons for the invasion of Gilneas as a whole with his reasons for throwing the Forsaken at the Gilnean gate (and, more specifically, the reasons for throwing the Forsaken at the gate he gave them, because he obviously wouldn't tell them he wants to bleed them to death through the Gilnean war). Which isn't exactly an effective argument. Especially since the whole Blighting bit happened way after Garrosh conceded on the gate and gave Sylvanas free reign to perform an invasion from the sea.

Oh she won the war quite handily. The Nelfs were beaten, Darkshore hers, the tree and Darnassus being in her hand. She had won a nice piece of lush territory for the Horde (only to blight and destroy it later, but hey) and effectively removed the Alliance from Kalimdor.
That is already more then Garrosh ever managed. In a next step she could have taken the people in the tree hostage and traded them favourably to the Alliance for other consessions. We both know Anduin does not have it in him to let her execute these innocents, so he would have caved on any demand. That was what a smart winner would have done.

Except as per Saurfang's own draft of the campaign, the holding of the Night Elven territory relied on them being compliant with the occupation, which in turn rested on Malfurion eating dirt. Again, Saurfang conceded on that when confronted by Nathanos. And then accepted Sylvanas' explanation for burning Teldrassil in light of his failure as logically valid. And I'm not sure why you're invoking Garrosh here. Achieving more than Garrosh in Night Elven territory is a bar so low it probably doesn't even exist.

No, the difference is that Jaina allowed herself to be stopped, when no one had the power to stop her by force alone. If someone is completely unwaveringly convinced of doing something horrible, you can just as well talk to a wall, you won't stop them with words, but Jaina was not, deep down she knew she was wrong and Thrall and Kalec allowed her the moment of clarity to realize this.

Except Thrall was holding her back even before Kalec arrived to help him. Had Kalec actually helped him out and acted against Jaina instead of just talking about how she's acting like Arthas she'd be toast. And the only reason why Jaina didn't commit genocide is because Thrall was there to stop him. Because she already deployed the attack. I.e. she already attempted it but was stopped by someone else. Which already makes her a genocidal maniac.

As Kalec tells her, it is the same thing that happened with Arthas in front of Stratholme. He was unwaveringly convinced to purge the city and neither Uther nor Jaina's words could reach him, because of that. Jaina in the same situation chose not to go down that path.

The difference is that their words couldn't reach him before he actually did anything. She already attempted her genocide. The other difference is that Arthas' plan came from a place of compassion (albeit warped as he was not exactly well in the head) as he couldn't bear idly watching his people become undead and there was nothing to stop this from happening (which would then spiral out of control across the country) and all Jaina and Uther provided him were empty platitudes. Jaina launched her wave to kill all Orcs because she simply wanted a world without Orcs. So Kalec was wrong. Jaina was much, much worse than Arthas at Stratholme.

This is the big difference between Jaina and Sylvanas:

Jaina actually cares about the lives of people (even her enemies), she doesn't want to kill anyone, she does not kill for the fun of it, but only when she is forced to and many times over the Horde has done exactly that.

Yes, Jaina was truly forced to drown Orc orphans or to kill Aethas' guards before she even laid any charges against the Sunreavers. Garrosh put a Gorehowl to her head at both occasions. Which is quite a feat as he wasn't physically present on either occasion. I guess he projected his spirit across the Twisting Nether or something.

Sylvanas on the other hand cares for nothing and no one except herself and murders without a shred of remorse, she believes her own fate gives her the right to be this way, because she is cursed and all that. Booo Hoooo.

Both have been through tragedies, but one chose to not be dragged down by it, while the other wallows in it and makes every effort to drag down everyone else.

Except Jaina wallows in it every second expansion. She's a yo-yo of a character in that regard. Though that is indeed a difference between the two.


Also, what happened to that canonical innocent farmer?

Or it could just be that you have such a reputation on these forums that people would rather throw the argument than put up with your presence, regardless of how correct you might be?

Food for thought.

Yes, that's precisely where that nonsense about "so you're saying Sylvanas is innocent??!!?!1?" comes in Or what the accusation of fanaticism was made in this particular case to walk out of the argument for that matter. It all sticks together so well.

Yet, weirdly enough, it's only the kind of posters that are habitually wrong - so wrong in some cases that they prove themselves wrong with their own sources (about Barrens for example, though this example is purely hypothetical) - that make some asinine remarks about my "reputation". And only after said wrongness is pointed out and confronted with canon sources.

It's almost as if that remark served the same kind of purpose as the fantasy of people arguing Sylvanas is a paragon of justice that pops up whenever blatant fanfiction about her is confronted and exposed for what it is, i.e. trying to discredit someone because real arguments are hard. Food for thought.

[gurutikka]

She strikes me as the kind of character who does what is best for herself and maybe those she grows to truly care about, not giving a rats ass about some retarded factional boundaries. To be fair, brokering peace between those two retarded factions would be in her best interests as she's less likely to die during times of peace.



Or it could just be that you have such a reputation on these forums that people would rather throw the argument than put up with your presence, regardless of how correct you might be?

Food for thought.

Edit: I also expect some reply like "ironic" or whatever. Don't disappoint.

it's more like the horde lacks good characters and valeera would be an awesome character on the horde side

[Daevelian]

it's more like the horde lacks good characters and valeera would be an awesome character on the horde side

Wouldn't it be better to make new characters instead of poaching them from others though?

[Specialka]

it's more like the horde lacks good characters and valeera would be an awesome character on the horde side

I fail to see how she would be awesome on Horde site. She already is interesting as an oathsworn on Anduin's side.

[Quaade]

Baine is in the Stormwind throne room as well.

[Rendark]

Valeera used to be cool. Not wanting to be horde because of Varian and not wanting to be alliance because of her people. Now tho she is just a alliance spy with no character.

[Raelbo]

Another thing I do not understand is that she is an uncrowned champion and shadow, yet she is without a bodyguard, why didn't she bring Vanessa Vancleef along with her for personal protection while travelling to Orgrimmar?

Who is to say she didn't? You know, rogue stealth and all that...

[gurutikka]

she's neutral though so it wouldn't be stealing from alliance lol

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Who is to say she didn't? You know, rogue stealth and all that...

does she have the power to appoint an underling like vanessa to be her bodyguard?

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pretty much yeah lol, you're right 100%

[greeeed]

Yes she is prejudiced there (god knows why she still sticks around there still) r?

You do remember that she used to live as a gladiator slave in the horde, right?
From her point of view, there is no different between the Alliance or the Horde.

And High elf already live in StormWind, the problem with blood elf is that one traitor who used dalaran portal to nuke theramore and screw up Varian plan to have the blood elf rejoin the Alliance.

After the nuke, blood elf would be kill if he sniff near one of the survivors.
And that is Why Jaina didn't trust her without Si7 Master Spy Trust (She ignored Anduin Trust)

[Raisei]

I shouldn't even have replied in the first place... no idea why I bothered, last post here and last answer to you, since again you are just desperately trying to be right by taking isolated points while ignoring context and things that are obvious.

Stated by whom? Not that it matters because Jaina isn't a mind reader and didn't know of Garrosh's mental instability before he actually decided to invade the Ashenvale. And Garrosh's position evolving to Kalimdor being ancestral Horde territory came much, much later on top of that.

Garrosh's problems with the Alliance are OBVIOUS during WotLK easily. Jaina was very much present when Garrosh charged Varian and she heard all his talk in the Argent Tournament Arena. He is one of those people that you do not need to mind read to realize they are dangerous when put in power. Everyone knew that, except that fool Thrall. Even in the Horde, people were convinced he'd create problems, but sure stick to what is expressly stated when it is convenient to your argument.

Strangely enough, Sylvanas broke his orders to save her people from a deliberately wasteful campaign. So her getting less flak than Baine who went out of his way to betray the Horde to the benefit of the Alliance on more than once occasion is rather obvious.

Sylvanas "saved" "her people" because she wanted them as "ankers to immortality". Basically her plot shield made flesh, so it was not to the benefit of the Horde, but her own, basically like anything she did. It is cute how you make it sound like she has any interest in either the Horde's or the Forsaken's wellbeing, when she even recently demonstrated that she does not care.

Besides I do not see the Blood Oath mentioning that reasons matter. You either obey or you are a traitor. By using the Blight behind his back Sylvanas did nothing less then Baine did, with the small (and for you obviously unimportant) difference that she went behind his back to inflict terrible death and cruelty on people, while Baine tried to save lifes on both sides.

And of course you would say that Baine did everything for the benefit of the Alliance, because that is the Meme we all need to repeat endlessly after all, isn't it? He is Anduin's pet and all. So cute.
But the actual fact is that all he ever did was to protect the Horde from itself. Something it desperately needed. To make this abundantly clear, because this point seems very hard for Hordes to understand: SYLVANAS WOULD HAVE KILLED YOU ALL.
By going against Sylvanas Baine protected the Horde. Very clearly. Anyone that is not blinded by hatred for this character sees it. So did he go against the Blood Oath? Hell yeah. Did he betray the Horde? No.

You're conflating his reasons for the invasion of Gilneas as a whole with his reasons for throwing the Forsaken at the Gilnean gate (and, more specifically, the reasons for throwing the Forsaken at the gate he gave them, because he obviously wouldn't tell them he wants to bleed them to death through the Gilnean war). Which isn't exactly an effective argument. Especially since the whole Blighting bit happened way after Garrosh conceded on the gate and gave Sylvanas free reign to perform an invasion from the sea.

Now this is weird. If he did not state this reason clearly, how do you know? Sounds almost like Sylvanas read his mind and prevented his plans. Huh. I admit since she is now the mostest powahful being on Azeroth and rolfstomps the Lich King, it is very possible that she can read minds now as well, but then?

Nope. You can't have it both ways.

One time you say Jaina is wrong in doing what she did, because she could not read his mind, now you say Sylvanas is right because she knew he was wasting the Forsaken deliberately, without him stating such.
Ergo Sylvanas can only have deduced from his demeaner of hatred towards the Forsaken that he planned to do this. But if she could do that, then Jaina surely could do the same considering his hatred of the Alliance and his threat potential for any Alliance member on Kalimdor.
Either Garrosh can be seen through or he cannot and then it goes for both sides. You can't make a point out of saying at one time he can (because it is a Horde doing it) and on another time he cannot (because it is an Alliance member doing it).

In short, your entire argument is biased. Blaming Jaina for things that you praise Sylvanas for. No Alliance character can ever do anything right for you and even loyal Horde members will immediatedly be relegated to Alliance lapdogs when they dare question the genocidal plans of their Warchiefs.

This is why one cannot have a discussion with you and I am just wasting my life time here.

Yes, Jaina was truly forced to drown Orc orphans or to kill Aethas' guards before she even laid any charges against the Sunreavers. Garrosh put a Gorehowl to her head at both occasions. Which is quite a feat as he wasn't physically present on either occasion. I guess he projected his spirit across the Twisting Nether or something.

Since when do you have to be physically present to force someone to do something? By your own words, Garrosh forced Aethas into silence by threatening the other Belfs. He wasn't in Dalaran the entire time to make sure he kept his mouth shut, was he? Or was he sitting in Silvermoon watching a group of little elves play while he sharpened Gorehowl? Didn't think so.

Jaina felt forced to act against the Horde because she had just seen the madness that guides them, by destroying the Horde she was going to prevent further Theramores, that was how Garrosh forced her to act and drop her wishes for peace between the factions. He quite nearly broke her and drove her insane. The fact she was abled to claw herself out of that hole AT ALL shows how strong Jaina is.

But yeah, I get it. Jaina is basically worse then Sylavanas and Garrosh mixed together with a bit of Sargeras on top. No matter what the Horde does to her, she is to simply lie down and accept that. If she, or any other Alliance member to be exact, dares to fight back, they are ALWAYS wrong. Whatever the Horde does is right.
That is what you want to say, no?

[Alanar]

her 'unique' aspects are all stuff she can easily change, she can wear a rug and comb her hair different, done, she looks like average belf
and no i'm not joking, i even used in-game reference for that, each race can't distinguish (easily at least) between ppl from other races

Right, what about the part we now know all she went with anduin through a portal? Her eyes are differnt as well idk if intentional. Anyway the point is: the horde knows who she is and where her alliance is at. Her role for the horde is kinda vague cus obviously she acts like a spy.. , but for both factions?? I would say: baine and your council pick your sides. I mean any information can be used in a bad way if things go to shit and its warcraft so things go to shit.

I smell trouble with her.. altho she looks cool.

[Ielenia]

She fought Daelin's forces for good reason. Should I remind you that Thrall's Horde literally just saved the world?

Excuse me? When did that happen?