Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[BrioWoW]

My guild got CE Ghuun and Jaina and felt burnt out after Zaquul so we didn't even do a single pull on Azshara (except my ninja pull after we killed Zaquul ). I ultimately quit because I am tired of the grind. I love raiding but I don't like AP and having to do stupid busy work in a game where half my gaming time is doing stuff I'm not even having fun doing just so I can be competitive in the part of the game I do enjoy.

Hell, I'm here just because I've been looking into the new raid because I mean I still like raiding, but not willing to go through the tedium of everything else.

[Nitros14]

My guild got CE Ghuun and Jaina and felt burnt out after Zaquul so we didn't even do a single pull on Azshara (except my ninja pull after we killed Zaquul ). I ultimately quit because I am tired of the grind. I love raiding but I don't like AP and having to do stupid busy work in a game where half my gaming time is doing stuff I'm not even having fun doing just so I can be competitive in the part of the game I do enjoy.

Hell, I'm here just because I've been looking into the new raid because I mean I still like raiding, but not willing to go through the tedium of everything else.

That's why I went to raid classic.

[Hewtski]

Smaller guilds need to bond together

[swatsonqt]

Killing it? I am sorry to break it down to you but people who yearn for early nerfs and such aren't going to be good potential recruits. The very first thought of improving themselves, checking through warcraftlogs and ADMITTING their mistakes that lead to a wipe or something of that kind will scare them off. Most of the time they will not do anything about it in the first place, thus becoming a burden to the raid comp.

Does any good raid want such potentinal recruits? The answer is no.

P.S. That is why most people sit at top 1000 and whine instead of doing something to improve their standings or skill, about 90% of the time. I've been there, seen that stuff when i started to raid many many years ago. And let those people be and whine, some guilds will break down, new guilds will appear.

they are not good recruits in the environment that mythic raiding guilds created.

There are probably thousands of people out there who would like to engage in that content but are just denied the opportunity to do so.
And you are obviously on the side of people that support this behavior.

But in the end you're probably just going to run out of "good recruits" because nobody wants to to al the shit that a mythic raid team requires.
Call me out for this but everyone who wants to set a food inside the mythic raid should be able to do so by just hitting up the search tool and apply to a mythic raid that forms intime. "MMO" doesnt work if youre just playing in your small circle.

I remember times in wrath, in cata in mop, where we had hundreds upon hundreds of raids that did the raid in hc mode. They were fully aware that they probably wouldn't kill the endboss but there was alot more engagement than in todays mythic raiding.

All in all truth be told. Maybe most people in top 1000 guilds whine and dont want to improve. Maybe there is a reason why they dont want to do it - or maybe there is a reason why the overall majority of people dont want to do it.

Wait a make up a tldr for you because you're probalby wont really read what i said and continue with your mythic raider elitism bullshit:

tldr

you are wrong

[Osmeric]

Game is not dying is making more money then ever. Look at the earnings all its all there wow is more then fine.

No, YOU look at the earnings. What you are claiming there is not true.

[Popastique]

they are not good recruits in the environment that mythic raiding guilds created.

There are probably thousands of people out there who would like to engage in that content but are just denied the opportunity to do so.
And you are obviously on the side of people that support this behavior.

But in the end you're probably just going to run out of "good recruits" because nobody wants to to al the shit that a mythic raid team requires.
Call me out for this but everyone who wants to set a food inside the mythic raid should be able to do so by just hitting up the search tool and apply to a mythic raid that forms intime. "MMO" doesnt work if youre just playing in your small circle.

I remember times in wrath, in cata in mop, where we had hundreds upon hundreds of raids that did the raid in hc mode. They were fully aware that they probably wouldn't kill the endboss but there was alot more engagement than in todays mythic raiding.

All in all truth be told. Maybe most people in top 1000 guilds whine and dont want to improve. Maybe there is a reason why they dont want to do it - or maybe there is a reason why the overall majority of people dont want to do it.

Wait a make up a tldr for you because you're probalby wont really read what i said and continue with your mythic raider elitism bullshit:

tldr

you are wrong

There are tons of guilds out there, those who do entry mythic bosses ( 1-3 bosses which are even puggable ) and are ok with it, there are those who struggle and want more, and so goes the list. Point here is - there is no *small circle*, there are tons of them. So a good player who gets tired of his dead-brain comrades wiping on boss number 4 - leaves the guild and joins stronger guild, improves his progress, etc etc.
Those entry level guilds die, new ones are created - been like that for a long time. We haven't reached a point where 99% of people flat out say no to mythic raids, even at entry level.
So, should the bosses be nerfed for the entry crowd to see more and feel superiors? If you ask that crowd - peopel will say yes, but my answer is - no. You beat entry bosses, you get a taste, you want more - get better, you do not want to get better - feed on those entry bosses until nerfs come down raining, at the end or near the end of expansion.

tldr - learn to view the things at different angles.

P.S. There is a reason a recruit has to go through at least a few guilds and gain experience, or be in a guild which constantly improves (rare, but possible). What's the point of having mythic content that is doable by anyone anywhere? That is what i call killing MYTHIC raid scene.

[swatsonqt]

There are tons of guilds out there, those who do entry mythic bosses ( 1-3 bosses which are even puggable ) and are ok with it, there are those who struggle and want more, and so goes the list. Point here is - there is no *small circle*, there are tons of them. So a good player who gets tired of his dead-brain comrades wiping on boss number 4 - leaves the guild and joins stronger guild, improves his progress, etc etc.
Those entry level guilds die, new ones are created - been like that for a long time. We haven't reached a point where 99% of people flat out say no to mythic raids, even at entry level.
So, should the bosses be nerfed for the entry crowd to see more and feel superiors? If you ask that crowd - peopel will say yes, but my answer is - no. You beat entry bosses, you get a taste, you want more - get better, you do not want to get better - feed on those entry bosses until nerfs come down raining, at the end or near the end of expansion.

tldr - learn to view the things at different angles.

P.S. There is a reason a recruit has to go through at least a few guilds and gain experience, or be in a guild which constantly improves (rare, but possible). What's the point of having mythic content that is doable by anyone anywhere? That is what i call killing MYTHIC raid scene.

Ok, so we promote guild hopping over bonding with friends.
Funnel into toxic behaviour when your mates aren't that good and cater towards just letting entire groups die because "it has always been like that and should stay that way" just so that the tiniest part of the community can feel comfortable in thier playstyle?

Yeah sounds about right and absolutely like someone who played cutting edge from the get go.

Unfortunately there are about 0 players who want to rise. Yur playerbase is shrinking and you dont want to accept it.
I dont think that this person was very clever but someone once said " learn to view things at a different angle".

I dont want to argue that your approach is bad or good. It's just not what the playerbase is like in 2020.

People don't want to rise. This is an MMO. That'S kind of everything you need to know to see that about 75% of the endcontent should be available for the overwhelming majority and not for the tiniest few %. It simple makes no sense to develop for 5 persons. Just look around where we got with that mindset. Everyone is given increadibly ilvl because that was the only way blizzard could keep the majority playing. We have to massively outgear content because the playerbase simple doesn't want to learn.

If the signs are so clear you can't just close your eyes and keep going with your elitism raider bullshit. If it is too hard people will just leave. If you continuisly piss people off with your attitude they will leave. If mythic raiding stays the same it is for a decade now people will still (as they have been doing for a while now) leave.

With every tier it gets harder to fill rosters. There is no rising to be good. The sooner people like you accept it the faster we could get a change for the better.

So yeah. Nerf it. Nerf it into the ground. Apply weekly try counts to streatch out the grind and progress that can be made. In its current iteration raiding is nothing but a farce and you and your kind are the greatest problem of it because you want to sit at the top and be privileged.

tldr - you are stil wrong and proofed yourself and you're probably a [isnert word that would get me banned] to

[Popastique]

Ok, so we promote guild hopping over bonding with friends.
Funnel into toxic behaviour when your mates aren't that good and cater towards just letting entire groups die because "it has always been like that and should stay that way" just so that the tiniest part of the community can feel comfortable in thier playstyle?

Yeah sounds about right and absolutely like someone who played cutting edge from the get go.

Unfortunately there are about 0 players who want to rise. Yur playerbase is shrinking and you dont want to accept it.
I dont think that this person was very clever but someone once said " learn to view things at a different angle".

I dont want to argue that your approach is bad or good. It's just not what the playerbase is like in 2020.

People don't want to rise. This is an MMO. That'S kind of everything you need to know to see that about 75% of the endcontent should be available for the overwhelming majority and not for the tiniest few %. It simple makes no sense to develop for 5 persons. Just look around where we got with that mindset. Everyone is given increadibly ilvl because that was the only way blizzard could keep the majority playing. We have to massively outgear content because the playerbase simple doesn't want to learn.

If the signs are so clear you can't just close your eyes and keep going with your elitism raider bullshit. If it is too hard people will just leave. If you continuisly piss people off with your attitude they will leave. If mythic raiding stays the same it is for a decade now people will still (as they have been doing for a while now) leave.

With every tier it gets harder to fill rosters. There is no rising to be good. The sooner people like you accept it the faster we could get a change for the better.

So yeah. Nerf it. Nerf it into the ground. Apply weekly try counts to streatch out the grind and progress that can be made. In its current iteration raiding is nothing but a farce and you and your kind are the greatest problem of it because you want to sit at the top and be privileged.

tldr - you are stil wrong and proofed yourself and you're probably a [isnert word that would get me banned] to

Promote guild hopping over bonding with friends? Lolz. If you and your friends have a common goal - be it clearing heroic raids, running mythic dungeons or kissing squirrels - that's great. No one is forcing you to do anything. If you and your friends like to do mythic raids at your own pace - great, do it, go for it. But when your motivation differs, and you decide you want more/better progression while your friends are ok with things how they are - things will go differently. It goes for real life as well, work, sports, almost any aspect there is.

75% of the end content is available for the majority, you can do mythic dungeons, raids of heroic/normal/lfr difficulty, pvp. We are talking about a specific TINY portion of that endgame content which is supposed to be the most difficult one.

What signs are you talking about? Amount of guilds having killed bosses got lower? Yes it did. Do we know why? Nope. For all i know most of them had some irl issues and couldn't contribute to raiding often. And unless someone does a pretty big survey - we won't know the real reason why.

Harder to fill rosters? On low populated servers - yes, as it always been. I've been on low populated server till Cataclysm and it was a sh*t show when it came to recruiting even then.On high-populated servers recruiting is pretty ok.

It will be a farce when you start nerfing it to the ground, making the whole mythic raiding pointless. And i am pretty glad Blizzard do not nerf it until the end of expansion or close to it.

P.S. You can call me all you want, like i care if someone insults me over the internet lolz

[Relapses]

Promote guild hopping over bonding with friends? Lolz. If you and your friends have a common goal - be it clearing heroic raids, running mythic dungeons or kissing squirrels - that's great. No one is forcing you to do anything. If you and your friends like to do mythic raids at your own pace - great, do it, go for it. But when your motivation differs, and you decide you want more/better progression while your friends are ok with things how they are - things will go differently. It goes for real life as well, work, sports, almost any aspect there is.

75% of the end content is available for the majority, you can do mythic dungeons, raids of heroic/normal/lfr difficulty, pvp. We are talking about a specific TINY portion of that endgame content which is supposed to be the most difficult one.

What signs are you talking about? Amount of guilds having killed bosses got lower? Yes it did. Do we know why? Nope. For all i know most of them had some irl issues and couldn't contribute to raiding often. And unless someone does a pretty big survey - we won't know the real reason why.

Harder to fill rosters? On low populated servers - yes, as it always been. I've been on low populated server till Cataclysm and it was a sh*t show when it came to recruiting even then.On high-populated servers recruiting is pretty ok.

It will be a farce when you start nerfing it to the ground, making the whole mythic raiding pointless. And i am pretty glad Blizzard do not nerf it until the end of expansion or close to it.

P.S. You can call me all you want, like i care if someone insults me over the internet lolz

Blizzard typically takes into consideration the viewpoints of the people actually in the trenches doing the content as apposed to those sitting on the sidelines complaining that recruiting is "too hard" or that "not enough people are interested in Mythic raiding anymore." This is purely anecdotal but Mythic raiding, to me, doesn't seem to be in a much worse place than it has been at any other point in the last few years. People have been predicting Mythic to die since they switched to 20M back in WoD. Completion rates have diminished but it doesn't seem to me that there is a massive decline in the number of people interested in doing the content.

That said, the purpose of this thread has largely played itself out since we're about to begin a fresh raid tier. Only time will tell how this tier will play out. But personally I'm hoping for a difficulty curve similar to that of HFC. (Easy entry bosses, roadblock boss at 6 or 7, then a few more easy bosses with a couple roadblocks sprinkled between. This is capped off by a difficult penultimate and final boss.)

[swatsonqt]

Promote guild hopping over bonding with friends? Lolz. If you and your friends have a common goal - be it clearing heroic raids, running mythic dungeons or kissing squirrels - that's great. No one is forcing you to do anything. If you and your friends like to do mythic raids at your own pace - great, do it, go for it. But when your motivation differs, and you decide you want more/better progression while your friends are ok with things how they are - things will go differently. It goes for real life as well, work, sports, almost any aspect there is.

75% of the end content is available for the majority, you can do mythic dungeons, raids of heroic/normal/lfr difficulty, pvp. We are talking about a specific TINY portion of that endgame content which is supposed to be the most difficult one.

What signs are you talking about? Amount of guilds having killed bosses got lower? Yes it did. Do we know why? Nope. For all i know most of them had some irl issues and couldn't contribute to raiding often. And unless someone does a pretty big survey - we won't know the real reason why.

Harder to fill rosters? On low populated servers - yes, as it always been. I've been on low populated server till Cataclysm and it was a sh*t show when it came to recruiting even then.On high-populated servers recruiting is pretty ok.

It will be a farce when you start nerfing it to the ground, making the whole mythic raiding pointless. And i am pretty glad Blizzard do not nerf it until the end of expansion or close to it.

P.S. You can call me all you want, like i care if someone insults me over the internet lolz

you sure sound like someone who doesnt care m8

[Popastique]

you sure sound like someone who doesnt care m8

That's quite an argument you made there

[Deztru]

Forced 20man and the grind to be competitive are the main reasons why mythic is dying. Mythic (before Heroic) were always really difficult but the management wasn't complete ass back then. 25man was never popular among the majority of raiders.

WoD introduced 20man, Legion introduced the senseless grind to stay at the top and titanforging. ShockedPikachuFace people can't commit to raiding when the commitment required has increased tenfold.

[Riistov]

Because of raiding participation rates. Way less people overall.

Far more to do outside of raiding than there used to be. Many people, myself included, do m+ as their primary game mode. Raiding is just an activity to supplement that.

[kernel-wow]

Forced 20man and the grind to be competitive are the main reasons why mythic is dying. Mythic (before Heroic) were always really difficult but the management wasn't complete ass back then. 25man was never popular among the majority of raiders.

WoD introduced 20man, Legion introduced the senseless grind to stay at the top and titanforging. ShockedPikachuFace people can't commit to raiding when the commitment required has increased tenfold.

MoP's pre-patch introduced 20-man.

Titanforging was a thing since ToT, under a different name, called Thunderforging, then Warforging, same nonsense all of it.

Of all you said, the real argument is the grind.

Legion did indeed introduce the burnout inducing grind that now seems to be blown to 11 with every new patch, just to keep up on the curve.

Blizzard should dearly take a look back at what they've done and 180 that pile, because if it goes on longer, they will start seeing their customer-base dwindling.

Weebs will stay but if the raider quits, then soon the rest follow. It's just the way it is.


Also, yeah, bring back 10-man. Idc that it made it harder to balance, it was fun and more-over, easier to put together!

[Gorsameth]

MoP's pre-patch introduced 20-man.

Titanforging was a thing since ToT, under a different name, called Thunderforging, then Warforging, same nonsense all of it.

Of all you said, the real argument is the grind.

Legion did indeed introduce the burnout inducing grind that now seems to be blown to 11 with every new patch, just to keep up on the curve.

Blizzard should dearly take a look back at what they've done and 180 that pile, because if it goes on longer, they will start seeing their customer-base dwindling.

Weebs will stay but if the raider quits, then soon the rest follow. It's just the way it is.


Also, yeah, bring back 10-man. Idc that it made it harder to balance, it was fun and more-over, easier to put together!

Thunder and Warforging were limited to +5 Ilvl's which is a big deal because then its just a little fun bonus you can get and not something you grind for over and over because some dungeon trinket is BiS if it procs Titanforging multiple times.

[docterfreeze]

Tuning gets even more tight this tier. Bad corruption luck = no boss kills.

[asil]

Tuning gets even more tight this tier. Bad corruption luck = no boss kills.

It's not corruptions lol. Those guilds have basically perfect corrupts from BOEs and the tuning is still this tight.

[docterfreeze]

It's not corruptions lol. Those guilds have basically perfect corrupts from BOEs and the tuning is still this tight.

I'm talking about my own experience. One and a half raid nights spent on wrathion this week and the best pull is a 17% enrage. We get aotc week 1 but can't pass the dps check on the first mythic boss. Got a corrupted gun from nzoth and my sim dps went up 13k. Now we have to wait for other players to get lucky too.

[Polarthief]

MoP's pre-patch introduced 20-man.

Warlord's pre-patch introduced it. It was 6.0, which was the pre-expansion patch for WoD. This is why there's a Mythic SoO because they introduced a new "between LFR and Normal" difficulty which was kinda unnamed but unofficially named "Flex". This became the new Normal. Normal became the new Heroic. Heroic became the new Mythic. We already had 4 difficulties in SoO, they just changed the names and made Mythic (the old Heroic) locked to 20.

Titanforging was a thing since ToT, under a different name, called Thunderforging, then Warforging, same nonsense all of it.

False. Thunderforging was an ALWAYS LOCKED +6(?) iLvl increase. It would never go higher than that. This became Warforged in SoO, then stuck throughout WoD. The equivalent to today would be a socket rolling on gear vs not rolling on a gear: Nice if you get it, but not mandatory (except in the case of rings/bracers/boots).

the real argument is the grind.

For sure. Legion just obliterated the paltry amount you had to do to stay up to date. M+ is a godsend, but raiders shouldn't feel pressured to spam it. M+ players also shouldn't feel pressured to raid. In addition, Legiondary grinding was so abysmal, on top of needing to keep up-to-date on all your characters' multiple specs of AP.

Also, yeah, bring back 10-man. Idc that it made it harder to balance, it was fun and more-over, easier to put together!

Sad but true. Majority of raiders would kill to have 10-player come back. Or, at the very least, they should have made Mythic 15-player would mean 10-player teams had to add +5 players, and 25-player guilds get a bigger bench of +10. Forcing 10-player teams to double in size is another huge part of what ruined the Mythic community. Hell it consumed both my guilds I've been with through the end of SoO to NH, and another guild I joined shortly after which lasted from NH to end of EP. We simply had too much burnout trying to do Mythic with 20 and would have easily been able to continue if 10 (or even 15) player Mythic was a thing.

[asil]

I'm talking about my own experience. One and a half raid nights spent on wrathion this week and the best pull is a 17% enrage. We get aotc week 1 but can't pass the dps check on the first mythic boss. Got a corrupted gun from nzoth and my sim dps went up 13k. Now we have to wait for other players to get lucky too.

If you're hitting the enrage timer on wrathion you've got way bigger problems than corrupts my man. That's some straight up awful play across the board. You're doing something very wrong if you enrage on that boss, corrupts or no corrupts.

Guilds kill that boss with 3-4 dead dps. I didn't even know that boss had an enrage timer. I am honestly baffled as to how that even happens, you guys have to be afking for most of the fight.