Now that we have five months of parses, any surprises in DPS?

[jackofwind]

For the record, I understood your joke.

There's just a lot of overlooked details in Vanilla/Classic. Like Feral not benefiting from weapon dps or procs, causing a BiS be a lvl 38 blue. Just a lot of dumb stuff here an there.

Overlooked ... or intended?

[Akka]

why are you looking at such low percentiles? i dont care what dps the shitters are doing.

Actually that should be the opposite. The whole top DPS parses are due mainly to
1) Stacking buffs (which has nothing to do with gameplay).
2) Extremely short fights that heavily favor any kind of burst.
It completely skew numbers, which means that all what you call "non-shit" basically means nothing.
Especially for someone who aims to lead PuG, where just having a warrior forgetting to refresh regularly his shout (very common occurence in such situation) can completely tank the DPS of the rogues in his group.

[Roxyfoxy]

Warlocks are a bit low because they can't use their DoTs, need a spec that sucks outside of raids for top MC damage so most won't bother, and they have to keep curses up on the enemies, which might get resisted a few times as well. The amount they boost all those other specs damage is impressive, however. Still crucial to have.

Dots are a minor dps increase only, a corruption is worth just a little more than a shadowbolt every 20 seconds(+ the chance at nightfall proc if you are SM/ruin), and curse of agony is worth around 1,5 shadowbolt every 30 seconds. Shiphon life and immolate is a dps loss over just casting a shadowbolt.

Reason warlocks are bad right now, is because the lack of both hit and crit. both these stats scale incredible with spellpower, and the more crit you get, the uptime of improved shadowbolt goes up, which buffs your damage a lot.

With current gear levels, and boss kill timers, with 5ish warlocks, you are lucky if you get a shadowbolt to land with the improved shadowbolt debuff on the target, but once you get into BWL, AQ and Naxx gear, the uptime on that buff increases dramatically, causing the damage to explode.

If you add a shadowpriest, a warlock will be right there at the top with mages and warriors when you are in AQ and Naxx quality gear, due to the warlocks insane scaling

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Overlooked ... or intended?

I don't think it was intended, they just didn't care about dps that weren't pures or warriors.

"Hey, did we make a decent damage dealing weapon for druid?"

"Why is a druid trying to do damage?"

[arkanon]

?"

"Why is a druid trying to do damage?"

Had a good chuckle at this, could totally imagine that happening.

[jackofwind]

I don't think it was intended, they just didn't care about dps that weren't pures or warriors.

"Hey, did we make a decent damage dealing weapon for druid?"

"Why is a druid trying to do damage?"

I mean they made the Feral AP weapons specifically for a reason, so there is that. They knew Druids were trying to DPS they just intended them to be lesser because of the hybrid tax.

[Kagthul]

Dots are a minor dps increase only, a corruption is worth just a little more than a shadowbolt every 20 seconds(+ the chance at nightfall proc if you are SM/ruin), and curse of agony is worth around 1,5 shadowbolt every 30 seconds. Shiphon life and immolate is a dps loss over just casting a shadowbolt.

No they aren't. Immolate is ALWAYS worth casting (if we're talking about things in a vacuum/debuff slots not being an issue) even if half or more of your +damage is shadow. If you have Bane, the DPCT of Immolate is about 40% higher than Shadowbolt... even if it crits. Its higher if the Shadowbolt doesn't crit (and the up-front portion of Immolate can crit, too) Sipon Life is always worth casting, as well. Its DPCT (1.5 seconds and its 100% coefficient (actually 200% cut in half because it heals) is amazing. In a setting where you CAN use them, they are ALWAYS worth casting over a Shadowbolt (ALL of your DoTs are). This was true - even as Affliction, Immolate was ALWAYS worth casting until it was removed as a spell Affliction could get - until well into Cata, which is the last time i paid attention to that kind of thing.

Combined, all 4 DoTs tick for roughly the damage of a non-crit Shadowbolt every 3 seconds, and, combined, only cost you about 3 shadowbolts per DoT cycle (mostly because of Immolates shorter duration). Theyre always a decent dps increase. Particularly since 3 of them gain from ISB and Shadow Weaving. And that doesn't include the possibility of Nightfall procs.

Reason warlocks are bad right now, is because the lack of both hit and crit. both these stats scale incredible with spellpower, and the more crit you get, the uptime of improved shadowbolt goes up, which buffs your damage a lot.

With current gear levels, and boss kill timers, with 5ish warlocks, you are lucky if you get a shadowbolt to land with the improved shadowbolt debuff on the target, but once you get into BWL, AQ and Naxx gear, the uptime on that buff increases dramatically, causing the damage to explode.

If you add a shadowpriest, a warlock will be right there at the top with mages and warriors when you are in AQ and Naxx quality gear, due to the warlocks insane scaling

Even in current gear, Warlocks (particularly Shadowbolt spamming SM/Ruin or DS/Riun) are threat limited. There's no inherent threat reduction of any kind, unlike literally every other DPS (and dont even start on "well you could run Imp with MD" - yeah, then, not only are you "gaining" the benefit of the threat reduction from the imp.. you're ALSO self-gimping your DPS by 15%, lowering your threat even more.)

Warlocks will be threat limited pretty much forever. Im not sure tank TPS can ever really deal with a warlock going balls-out, even in Naxx, though in Naxx, said Warlock would have to be very well geared and very skilled (97% percentile) to regularly pull of the tanks, and most people aren't that good, and the tank doesn't have to be "great" to do tha tlevel of TPS (which is relatively passive if the tank is doing his rotation right).

[Jurwi]

All 11 million people that play classic.

Wait, what? On what do you base that number?

[Gref]

I am surprised at the fact that fury warriors are accepted to raids. Back in the day, you either tank or you had no chance to play as fury. But now we have 2-3 warriors dpssing. And they are doing good. Wish I could have been one back 15 years ago.

[Numiro]

I am surprised at the fact that fury warriors are accepted to raids. Back in the day, you either tank or you had no chance to play as fury. But now we have 2-3 warriors dpssing. And they are doing good. Wish I could have been one back 15 years ago.

Warriors received buffs in late vanilla, they weren't really competitive before that, especially not with the best dps spec being arms which put up mortal strike to do it.

[Tekkommo]

Oh my god that twisted logic. First off, no, dont oversimplify the issue, this just isnt accurate. And secondly, just buff the Fury warrior and destroy the feral. This is EXACTLY the same logic as the clowns pre launch saying Ret would be highly competitive, because of some video of a fully buffed and meme specd ret in BIS gear doing more damage than some fresh 60 in greens with no buffs.

Compare like for like, or dont compare at all.

Ferals do very good DPS on short fights. All fights are short in MC.

Feral DPS drops off in AQ40 and Naxx (as fights should last longer than 30 secs), but they will be very good in MC and BWL. Ret won't, Ret will never be good in Classic.

[OriginalName]

Well technically if the majority of spriests went full out they'd be competing with top dps.

Absolutely not.

Like, physically no way.

[Kuja]

DPS rogue? Are there other kinds of rogues too? Tank rogue?

[Noxina]

Oh dear......surely you understand how strange this comment is.

Most people don't care about making an effort, parsing 95+ can be a bit tough. But 90+ is for sure easy as shit, if you spend a little bit of time getting World Buffs before raid, and have a semi-decent raid group (so the kills are quick).

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Actually that should be the opposite. The whole top DPS parses are due mainly to
1) Stacking buffs (which has nothing to do with gameplay).
2) Extremely short fights that heavily favor any kind of burst.
It completely skew numbers, which means that all what you call "non-shit" basically means nothing.
Especially for someone who aims to lead PuG, where just having a warrior forgetting to refresh regularly his shout (very common occurence in such situation) can completely tank the DPS of the rogues in his group.

DPSing in Classic is ALL about preparation though, so #1 there should be taken into consideration. NO SPEC/CLASS is hard to play in Classic, they are all literally braindead to play. What takes an effort is preparing for the raid.

[Niwes]

With a modicum of effort you can get a 95% parse easily, go try it. There are plenty of, for instance, Hunters who do nothing but autoshot in MC, or don't use a shot timer, etc. The same goes for any class.

It's vastly easier to get a 95% parse over anything lower than it is to get a 96% parse over a 95% one. There's only so optimally that you can prep yourself and perform in Classic, and the top parses are all very close together so it mostly comes down to luck for 95%+.

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Which takes into account a ton of people that do MC with no world buffs, songflowers, DM buffs, etc. It also takes into account fresh 60's with no gear who obviously can't compete (of which there are a ton) and just happen to get into a MC PUG or are invited along on a guild run, fresh alts, etc. Not to mention taking into account parses by people who AFK on bosses, zone out and don't try for whatever reason, die early, or get hosed by stuff like getting multiple Baron bombs.

The point being that the difference between hitting 95% parses routinely and hitting 75% parses routinely comes down to some very simple things most of the time: swing/shot timers, gear, and buffs/consumes. None of these three things require any real increase in skill, just prep and time invested.

You get gear just by raiding so there's no actual improvement in gameplay to be made. You can download a swing/shot timer and immediately see an increase in DPS by not clipping AA's. You can see a massive increase in DPS by doing buff prep pre-raid. Just because most people don't do them doesn't mean that these aren't easy things to do.

Then there's also the point that most decently geared raid groups are now doing high parse strats that aren't hard to perform but are only possible with a certain amount of raid gear.

the only question i asked myself here is:

lets say its super easy to get 95% percentile, and cause of that fact, 9 (fictionally) million players of 11 million players total reach that number. is 95% percentile then still 95% percentile ? or, as more and more ppl getting that because its so easy, 95 become 83 then 72 then 50% percentile ?

i do not know out of my head how warcraft logs calcs stuff. but it seeeeems very dubios to me , when someone say (you) „a 95% thing is so easy everyone can easily reach“. instantly there is a question in my mind: „if so, why is it a 95% thingy instead a everyone-and-their-mother thingy“ ???

somehow this makes zero sense to me, what you say.

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Wait, what? On what do you base that number?

ask myself the same here

[Noxina]

the only question i asked myself here is:

lets say its super easy to get 95% percentile, and cause of that fact, 9 (fictionally) million players of 11 million players total reach that number. is 95% percentile then still 95% percentile ? or, as more and more ppl getting that because its so easy, 95 become 83 then 72 then 50% percentile ?

i do not know out of my head how warcraft logs calcs stuff. but it seeeeems very dubios to me , when someone say (you) „a 95% thing is so easy everyone can easily reach“. instantly there is a question in my mind: „if so, why is it a 95% thingy instead a everyone-and-their-mother thingy“ ???

somehow this makes zero sense to me, what you say.

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ask myself the same here

Because to reach it, you have to put in an effort. But everyone can do it, they just chose not to. Literally go DM trib, get Songflower, log in for Ony buff and you're good to go. Oh and consumes of course.
If you can't get atleast 90+ with that, you're absolute trash and need to delete the game, because there isn't any hard rotations or anything in Classic that makes it hard to parse good.

[Niwes]

Because to reach it, you have to put in an effort. But everyone can do it, they just chose not to. Literally go DM trib, get Songflower, log in for Ony buff and you're good to go. Oh and consumes of course.
If you can't get atleast 90+ with that, you're absolute trash and need to delete the game, because there isn't any hard rotations or anything in Classic that makes it hard to parse good.

you missed my question:

what DEFINES 95% percentile ?

if wclogs go and take all parses in account and compare them and define 95% percentile on the 5% that reached the highest performance value, well... then, when everybody and his mother reach this value, it will no longer be 95% percentile. it will become 50% percentile.

so the whole argument is complete bull shit. WHEN wclogs calc it that way.

when it is a „total number setted in stone“ then its another thing...

[Caperfin]

DPS rogue? Are there other kinds of rogues too? Tank rogue?

Yes, tank rogue is a thing. They can even tank raid if given the proper amount of effort.

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Absolutely not.

Like, physically no way.

Yes. If you account for contribution dps and a competent spriest.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Hunters scale extremely shit with gear, sadly, and reach their "slow growth" very fast because attackpower and ranged weapons scale remarkably badly.
Example:
MC 1h weapons have around 50-56 dps and climb to 70+ in Naxx 40, meaning a combined MH+OH increase of 30-40 dps.
For hunters they go from P2 Rhok’delar with 44 dps to Nerubian crossbow in Naxx with a dps of 57, a growth of only 13 dps.
Hubters do get higher dps once Survival Agility build becomes viable after AQ gear, byt that means no trueshot aura for your group.


For Paladins... well check out Spelladin build in P2 and onwards, it becomes superior to "warrior" rets and never look back.

[Segus1992]

Well technically if the majority of spriests went full out they'd be competing with top dps.

Haha, nope. I know you want to believe this horseshit, but it's wrong.

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Yes, tank rogue is a thing. They can even tank raid if given the proper amount of effort.

Yes. If you account for contribution dps and a competent spriest.

This delusion is on the same level as a Trump supporter.