Should Mastery be removed as a stat?

[Tradu]

It would? How so? Assuming we're reducing all CDs, not just stuff like Avenging Wrath, it should be pretty intuitive. Especially given the fact that haste already has CDR, as you say.

And haste's CDR isn't really an issue I feel, might become a problem when they double dip and stuff like Fists of Fury as the only Chi spender becomes possible, but that can just be solved by FoF's (and similar) CDs starting when the channel ends.

Haste: auto attacks, spell casts, GCDs, some CDs (unintuitive, tbh) as current
CDR: all ability cooldowns, nothing else, probably more % per rating to balance

Hasted CDs typically mean that the overall ability ratios stay similar, because you just get to press everything faster thanks to shorter CDs and more resources. CDR could end up pushing out abilities because you simply don't have the time to press then anymore, because more important abilities come off CD faster. In the extreme case you end up with something like your FoF example. It would also very easily become very breakpoint-y, which Blizzard doesn't like.

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You could always play with diminishing returns. Yes that would make the way the stat works even less transparent.

Yeah, that's the issue. The stat in itself wouldn't be too bad(outside of breakpoints), it's the things they'd likely need to do to balance it that'd be confusing.

[Tziva]

I definitely like the concept of mastery as a stat, but some classes need their specific mastery redesigned or at least retuned. I'd rather see it fixed so that mastery is a relevant stat to every spec (not necessarily the best secondary but at least fewer who don't care about it) than have the stat removed.

[Kanegasi]

Mastery should be replaced with...

Multistrike.

[Segus1992]

Hasted CDs typically mean that the overall ability ratios stay similar, because you just get to press everything faster thanks to shorter CDs and more resources. CDR could end up pushing out abilities because you simply don't have the time to press then anymore, because more important abilities come off CD faster. In the extreme case you end up with something like your FoF example. It would also very easily become very breakpoint-y, which Blizzard doesn't like.

I understand and agree that it wouldn't not change how some classes are played - I imagine it'd potentially push Crusader Strike out of the rotation for Retribution for example, I just don't see it as a problem. Having stats that change how classes are played at extreme values should be encouraged, I feel.

We already do have stats like that currently, mainly crit - for example as Fire Mage you wouldn't use Fireball if you had 100% crit, you'd just use Scorch and Pyro (and Fire Blast). Extreme case for sure, but that's the only one I could think of.

I agree breakpoints are bad, but it wouldn't be as heavy breakpoints as haste was for DoTs in the past, as every bit of extra CDR would still help your DPS by lowering the CD of your "big" CD. Still yes, I realize that that might be enough for Blizzard to refuse to implement it.

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Mastery should be replaced with...

Multistrike.

Nah dude multistrike was a mistake, terrible stat (and I don't mean for DPS) for almost every spec.

[Balbuto]

When Mastery was first introduced it was going to be the "tuning knob" for classes. The stat that Blizzard could adjust up and down easily to quickly tweak damage, healing and defensive numbers to quickly balance classes and specs, at one point in time Mastery was a really cool stat for a lot of classes too.

The stat failed at the intended goal of being that tuning knob though and instead Blizzard introduced the incredibly boring stat of Versatility to the game and made pretty much all the masteries "do X more damage of Y type or during Z." Which wouldn't be so bad except that the damage type was either so rare that it didn't really matter to the rotation or the amount of mastery required per point of damage increase was stupidly huge to the point of being irrelevant compared to other easier to obtain stats.

Meanwhile they added in straight class auras that handle damage and healing that all figure versatility into them and while the general rewards for stacking vers for most classes are like getting socks for Christmas there's no denying that practicality can win marathons.

So is there really any point in retaining Mastery at this juncture? I can't really think of any class that favors it over any of the other secondary stats and how most of the heavy lifting it used to do has been picked up by Versatility.

As a raiding Holy Priest, I want Crit and Mastery. thank you

[Blackmist]

Probably, but we need other stats to replace it. Adding splash AoE to your abilities (but not CC breaking). Harder crits. Shit like that.

In fact, fuck stats. We need effects. And decently balanced ones per class, not like this Infinite Stars bullshit where one choice is four times better than any other. Cobra shot leaves a dot. More spread on Multi-shot. Kill Command bites two targets.

Or have a gem system like PoE. I'm not keen on PoE gameplay, but the gem system seems pretty great.

[Kaesebrezen]

Mastery just is an overall poor stat. The unique mastery have been gutted over the years, and most of what remains are generic increases type of damage done/damage by abilities by x%.

At the same time mastery has always the biggest tuning problems. Different effect on single vs. multi-target. Different effect on talents, some talents in a row benefit from it, some don't, or even no talent does (while at least crit and versatility still make talents stronger). Doesn't affect trinkets at all.

Mastery, if it doesn't go, at least needs massive changes. It's overall a poorer versatility.

Nah, fuck multistrike. Give us cooldown reduction instead.

They tried CDR in WoD. It didn't work. A CDR stat, if it were to provide similar dps to the other stats, would need an excessive conversion (we're talking 1% crit equals to at least 10% CDR, and even more for classes with much weaker cooldowns - and cooldowns were signficantly stronger in WoD). It caps to fast, for too little gain.

[Azerate]

If any stat should go, it should be versatility. It's barely used by anyone except for maybe like 2 specs. Just get rid of it and bring back pvp power, or resilience, or whatever for pvp specifically.

[Shaiandra]

I think Mastery should generally be revisited, and I have no idea how it could be balanced for each spec, but there are some past examples which I think make a lot of sense and should be the basis of the idea..

I thought secondary stats were the most interesting when I was playing my Cat Druid in Cataclysm (4.1 and 4.2). Basically all stats were of very similar value with Mastery slightly ahead (with T11 set bonuses, anyway), but the thing is that Crit increased combo point generation, Haste increased energy regeneration, Hit/Expertise increased the reliability of attacks, and Mastery simply increased Bleed damage.

To play Feral well, the general basics include you have to keep your strong bleeds up at all times. Crit, Haste, and Hit/Exp made those easier, while Mastery did not make it easier, but provided the most damage if you did your job correctly. So it would make sense that you'd likely want some minimum amounts of crit/haste/hit/exp for your rotation to feel smooth/consistent, then pile on the Mastery if you're happy with the former.

I would say Legion Shadow is kinda similar. Haste does obvious things for keeping up Voidform, Crit helps a bit too with Auspicious Spirits generating Insanity or whatever, and then Mastery should've hypothetically provided the most damage if you stayed in Voidform the longest.

I don't know if it was correctly tuned so, but I think that's how I'd like to see the stats working where possible; haste/crit making your 'rotation' easier, while Mastery providing a bit more benefit once you have that down (and it would be more fitting to its name).

[Ielenia]

If there is a stat that should be removed, it's Versatility. "You deal slightly more damage/healing and take a teeny-tiny less damage."

Bring back the defense stat for tanks, and remove versatility, rolling its benefit into the existing stats. DPS and healers already have haste and crit for increased damage/healing output, and now tanks will have their defensive stat back. Don't even have to bring the 'parry/dodge' stats back, let them be affected by Defense.

[Temp name]

Mastery should be replaced with...

Multistrike.

Yeah, why don't we get another stat that does the same as Crit? That sounds fun
Because seriously, that's what Multistrike is. It's Crit with another flavour.

[Vampyrr]

Hell no, they should be ADDING back more of the removed stats... spirit, parry, dodge, mp5, etc.

Parry and dodge arent stats you really went for did you mean Hit and Expertise? If they readded stats they would need to bring back reforging to balance them. (Not that I minded reforging)

[Lora]

versatility should be removed before mastery if we are going to dumb the game down further.

[Lochton]

I'd rather see Versatility gone than Mastery.

[XorMalice]

The piece of mastery intended to be the tuning know wasn't the stat derived parts, it was the constant bonus, also called mastery. So say by being a combat rogue when this system came out, you'd get some flat chance at main gauche, and this was intended to be the tunable mastery, and then you would have a mastery stat which added to that.

This is not any smarter than if you gave every class a pool of critical strike, and then just threw the crit rating on top of that. It actually makes the gearing stupid; in the above example, assume that mastery is avoided by combat rogues in exchange for crit or haste or whatever is better. Further, assume that combat rogues are overperforming. So, you tune down the mastery base chance from, I dunno, 20% to 10%, or something. Except since this was always a multiplicatively stacking stat, suddenly your BiS might be a pile of mastery- the weighted response of a single point of mastery may have been 8, then crit and haste at 11 and 15, and now, post-nerf, mastery may be at 10, with crit and haste at 7 and 8, or something.

So if you use this as a dial, you run the real risk of punishing the players for gearing normally- and just as tearing up meters is not the fault of the players, assuredly gearing properly is not the fault of the players.

WoW's stats are overall interesting and good. I could imagine that they could be improved, but there's no model elsewhere in the industry to look at as regards this very specific gearing choice; WoW offers meaningful choices each tier, with each spec usually having an interesting set of gearing options. Additionally, the stats don't overlap too much: the only stat that increases your critical chance is crit, usually.

[Pony Soldier]

I think versatility should be removed. I always thought it was a stupid and boring stat. Increase to damage dealt and decrease to damage done to you...wow so cool. It feels so unrewarding whenever I get a gear piece with that stat on it.

I think mastery is the best stat in the game because it's different for every class and spec. I like how it's basically your main stat aside from str/agi/int but Blizzard doesn't like to use it that way because a lot of times it's the least important stat when it comes to stat priority which makes no sense to me.

[Onikaroshi]

Hell no. Those stats are stupid. Hit and Expertise were fucking useless after a certain threshold.

Not talking about cappable stats, though even those wouldn't be bad if they provided further use for them after cap

[callipygoustp]

Players wanting to remove things from the game for.... feelies. WTF.

Bad enough Blizzard plays the "less is more thing" but players as well....

[Trend]

As if this is an argument for why it shouldn't be removed. If there was a stat called "power" and it was the best for everyone while literally just giving % damage, would that be a good stat?

What? You high? The premise of the question was that nobody cares about mastery. If that's not true, which it isn't, the question is silly, which was my point. I'm not interested in your pedantic sidetrack.

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Players wanting to remove things from the game for.... feelies. WTF.

Bad enough Blizzard plays the "less is more thing" but players as well....

And yet dumb kids keep crying about how Blizzard needs to listen to the players.

[LordVargK]

Mastery has the potential to give you different playstyles and it has in the past. Most masteries were changed to a flat X% per point buff for many specs, but there are still some that concentrate about core mechanics of a spec and are interesting to use.

So no, make mastery interesting again, don't remove it.