Too many writers = story suffers?

[Kyphael]

The more of the story they give to Golden, and the less inpact Danuser has - the better for the story

And I dunno if Metzen is back doing story, but he should be

He's fully retired. He only does voice over work, particularly for Thrall anymore.

[ro9ue]

To me a better way to write an expansion is to keep the main arc simple and straightforward and then litter the content with a lot of small stories, some of which relate to the main theme and others not-so-much.

I definitely agree with this and why I liked Legion so much. Each zone had a story. Those stories all ended with a piece of a puzzle needed for the meta-story of Legion (titan artifacts like Tidestone, etc). And then there were a bunch of mini stories related / not related to the main theme but held their own: Runas, Artifact stories, Class Hall Stories, Illidan's story, etc.

[Kyphael]

That's a shame, I hoped with Thrall coming back he might have an impact on the game again - I've always liked his writing

You're preaching to the choir, I'd love to have Metzen back as writer and replace with D'uhsner and Golden.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I definitely agree with this and why I liked Legion so much. Each zone had a story. Those stories all ended with a piece of a puzzle needed for the meta-story of Legion (titan artifacts like Tidestone, etc). And then there were a bunch of mini stories related / not related to the main theme but held their own: Runas, Artifact stories, Class Hall Stories, Illidan's story, etc.

That's precisely why I disliked Legion's story. There are dozens of storylines but they hardly tie into each other. For example, the story of Azsuna feels like it takes place within its own bubble and doesn't interact with any of the other storylines in the game. It feels like it has no impact outside of itself, like it is an inconsequential filler arc. None of the class storylines have anything to do with any of the other storylines in the game.

Contrast that with Mists of Pandaria, where every storyline in the expansion flowed into the next, forming a coherent overall narrative.

• Your faction war brings you to the Jade Forest, where your eyes are opened to how pathetic your squabbling is. You meet... totally normal people, living totally normal lives in peace. You learn to care for these people. You learn about the Mogu, the August Celestials, and Emperor Shaohao. The stubbornness of your faction results in disaster as you release the Sha back into Pandaria and the remaining forces of the expedition are slaughtered.

• You then travel to the Valley of the Four Winds, leaving behind the devastation you had wrought to live as a normie. You get to know these people, and for once there are actual stakes in WoW. You care what happens to these people. Then the Mantid break through the Wall, and for once you actually give a damn. You want to save these people. This kickstarts your journey to save Pandaria.

• You travel to Krassarng Wilds, where you begin to learn more about the Mogu who were introduced in the Jade Forest. Turns out, the Mogu are still around, and they are reforming. You also help Dezco lead his tribe to the promised land.

• You travel through the Veiled Stair to Kun-Lai. From that point onward, the story begins to escalate. Yaungol barbarians are pouring into Pandaria from the steppes and the Zandalari are raiding the coasts. You are introduced to the Shado-Pan and Xuen the White Tiger. More Mogu setup. Foreshadowing that the Zandalari aren't just here to raid villages, but that they are here for someone...

• All out war has broken out on the Townlong Steppes. You join the Shado-Pan in the counteroffensive against the Yaungol. Many of your comrades perish in the struggle, but for once you felt like it was worth it.

• You return to the wall to find the Mantid assaulting the gate. Again, you and the Shado-Pan repel the invaders. You descend into the Dread Wastes and becomes acquaintances with the Paragons of the Klaaxi, and find out about the tragedy that has befallen the Mantid Empire, a grim warning to what could befall your factions.

• Dezco's character arc pays off as you are allowed into the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. You become friends with the Golden Lotus, and just as the Mogu launch their first offensive, you and the Golden Lotus put and end to their plans.

• The Blacktalon agents who you had seen traveling through Pandaria bring you to Wrathion. By this point, your eyes have been opened to what is really going on, and you begin working with Wrathion to save the world. You find out more about ancient Pandaria with Cho. You fulfill the Paragon's mission and put an end to the decrepit Mantid Empire.

• The faction armies arrive and the war begins kicking back up. You go along with the factions in order to try to minimize the damage they cause and see what a farce they are. The factions are on the verge of becoming just like the Mantid Empire you had just destroyed. Varian begins to develop and see the truth.

• We find out what the Zandalari were really doing: resurrecting that big scary Lei-Shen dude who was being built up previously. You once again reunite with the Shado-Pan to put an end to the threat. More opening the eyes of your faction to the truth.

• Everything begins to come together as we trace the root of Pandaria's woes to Y'shaarj, whose impact in the story comes to the forefront as he begins to take over the Horde.

• 5.4 is the culmination of the entire MoP saga. Your Golden Lotus friends are horrifically murdered. Dezco finds peace. Pandaria's millennia long struggle with the impact of Y'shaarj comes to an end. The farcical faction war comes to an end. Wrathion gets called out.

Look at how every storyline in MoP flowed into each other, how the story of MoP was continually built up from one storyline to the next.

Legion doesn't have that. It's a collection of short stories that have nothing to do with each other, and don't build up to any memorable conclusion. At most, you have the short questline of finding Xe'ra fragments -> finding Illidan -> going to Argus. That's it.

[Tripzzz]

They still have a lead, if I'm not mistaken. I think the guy is even self-inserting as Nathanos.

Yep. Steve "the Blightcaller" Danuser. He's lead narrative designer and he is responsible for alot of the trash story.

This guy literally thinks N'zoth "won".


“In a way, N’Zoth wins, because he’s gotten the whole team to tell his story,” - Danuser

https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-wa...-nzoth-design?

If N'zoth "won" why did they hide the trash 8.3 ending cinematic??

- - - Updated - - -

Here's some more quotes from Steve "the Blightcaller" Danuser about 8.3's "story".

https://www.wowhead.com/news=304485/...e-danuser#lore

"The Old Gods are very interesting beings that are tied into the history of World of Warcraft and made their presence on Azeroth felt for a long period of time. N'Zoth is the last of the original Old Gods who infect the world and so this does address this storyline and bring it to what we feel is a very good conclusion."


Vey good conclusion? The end cinematic was unlisted and has 12k dislikes. ROFL!!

[Th3Scourge]

No, I firmly believe that much of this is the fault of Steve "twinky fingers" Danuser.

Listen to his interviews, he sounds as if he thinks he is smarter than he is.

He doesn't understand the lore, so he tries to come up with some overly complex explanations for what are simple fantasy stories.

I'm terribly worried for Shadowlands

[Luxeley]

Can never really have to many writers in a collaborative effort. The real issue here is a significant lack of overall vision - aka Chris Metzen's absence or someone like him with a wealth of lore knowledge. Its more a lack of chiefs rather than too many Indians.

[Th3Scourge]

That's precisely why I disliked Legion's story. There are dozens of storylines but they hardly tie into each other. For example, the story of Azsuna feels like it takes place within its own bubble and doesn't interact with any of the other storylines in the game. It feels like it has no impact outside of itself, like it is an inconsequential filler arc. None of the class storylines have anything to do with any of the other storylines in the game.

Contrast that with Mists of Pandaria, where every storyline in the expansion flowed into the next, forming a coherent overall narrative.

• Your faction war brings you to the Jade Forest, where your eyes are opened to how pathetic your squabbling is. You meet... totally normal people, living totally normal lives in peace. You learn to care for these people. You learn about the Mogu, the August Celestials, and Emperor Shaohao. The stubbornness of your faction results in disaster as you release the Sha back into Pandaria and the remaining forces of the expedition are slaughtered.

• You then travel to the Valley of the Four Winds, leaving behind the devastation you had wrought to live as a normie. You get to know these people, and for once there are actual stakes in WoW. You care what happens to these people. Then the Mantid break through the Wall, and for once you actually give a damn. You want to save these people. This kickstarts your journey to save Pandaria.

• You travel to Krassarng Wilds, where you begin to learn more about the Mogu who were introduced in the Jade Forest. Turns out, the Mogu are still around, and they are reforming. You also help Dezco lead his tribe to the promised land.

• You travel through the Veiled Stair to Kun-Lai. From that point onward, the story begins to escalate. Yaungol barbarians are pouring into Pandaria from the steppes and the Zandalari are raiding the coasts. You are introduced to the Shado-Pan and Xuen the White Tiger. More Mogu setup. Foreshadowing that the Zandalari aren't just here to raid villages, but that they are here for someone...

• All out war has broken out on the Townlong Steppes. You join the Shado-Pan in the counteroffensive against the Yaungol. Many of your comrades perish in the struggle, but for once you felt like it was worth it.

• You return to the wall to find the Mantid assaulting the gate. Again, you and the Shado-Pan repel the invaders. You descend into the Dread Wastes and becomes acquaintances with the Paragons of the Klaaxi, and find out about the tragedy that has befallen the Mantid Empire, a grim warning to what could befall your factions.

• Dezco's character arc pays off as you are allowed into the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. You become friends with the Golden Lotus, and just as the Mogu launch their first offensive, you and the Golden Lotus put and end to their plans.

• The Blacktalon agents who you had seen traveling through Pandaria bring you to Wrathion. By this point, your eyes have been opened to what is really going on, and you begin working with Wrathion to save the world. You find out more about ancient Pandaria with Cho. You fulfill the Paragon's mission and put an end to the decrepit Mantid Empire.

• The faction armies arrive and the war begins kicking back up. You go along with the factions in order to try to minimize the damage they cause and see what a farce they are. The factions are on the verge of becoming just like the Mantid Empire you had just destroyed. Varian begins to develop and see the truth.

• We find out what the Zandalari were really doing: resurrecting that big scary Lei-Shen dude who was being built up previously. You once again reunite with the Shado-Pan to put an end to the threat. More opening the eyes of your faction to the truth.

• Everything begins to come together as we trace the root of Pandaria's woes to Y'shaarj, whose impact in the story comes to the forefront as he begins to take over the Horde.

• 5.4 is the culmination of the entire MoP saga. Your Golden Lotus friends are horrifically murdered. Dezco finds peace. Pandaria's millennia long struggle with the impact of Y'shaarj comes to an end. The farcical faction war comes to an end. Wrathion gets called out.

Look at how every storyline in MoP flowed into each other, how the story of MoP was continually built up from one storyline to the next.

Legion doesn't have that. It's a collection of short stories that have nothing to do with each other, and don't build up to any memorable conclusion. At most, you have the short questline of finding Xe'ra fragments -> finding Illidan -> going to Argus. That's it.

Absolutely yes, if 8.3 has reminded me of anything, it's how amazing the zones are in Pandaria.

[Monster Hunter]

That's the thing, in one interview with Afrasiabi he said if someone has x plot with x character nobody will oppose it which is a very bad move since if you've very biased writers, then things goes to a very weird and bizarre point that others has to suck it up. For example I know 100% Danuser has pushed every plot to make Sylvanas smart despite his very flawed writing and Golden loves too much Jaina and Anduin "they do no wrong"

I think and this is just my opinion. But it sounds similar to what I witnessed once with girl I was seeing in college. She was of the artsy type, you know the ones who fit the personality type of the creative, and I noticed a few things over the course when it came to group projects, so art by commity or at least group art each with a bit. Rarely did they give critisim of each others work. Which I thought strange as I was used to rather more confrontational group work in my engineering degree, we even had lessons on things like fagan inspecting each others work.

Now I know she didn't take critisim well, having sat and listened to her ranting about her tutor feedback, nor did her freinds for that matter when it came to there art, which makes me wonder if the creative team is letting bad writing through without the right criticing in the interest of keeping a friendly work environment, I have my self felt hesitance when I've had to basicly give the feedback that politely says "sorry this isn't going into the master branch your code is shit" when I work closely with that person or have a work freindship with them. Now in the end I've always had to bite the bullet software dev and any engineering is alot more binary than arts, a shit product is measurably shit there's not much opinion as you can simply point to the test results and stats. Art is more subjective, and what's good and bad really comes down to the consumers taste and opinion more, now there are rules in art, but there's also a culture of pushing boindrys and breaking rules so I've often wondered how creative teams of writers or other artists go about measuring quality of there work in pre-prod before deployment to the customer. Easentialy mlwja I'm wondering is what is an arts or writing departments QA and what is blizzards.

- - - Updated - - -

Can never really have to many writers in a collaborative effort. The real issue here is a significant lack of overall vision - aka Chris Metzen's absence or someone like him with a wealth of lore knowledge. Its more a lack of chiefs rather than too many Indians.

That's my opinion. Lack of over all creative control by an individual to QA the other writers work to make sure it fits there vision. Like how lovecraft would vet the work of writers who made story's in his worlds befor giving them the OK to publish. Similarly after his death the quality of work based on his material did diminish. That's the only kind of QA I can think of for collaborative artistic work. Out side of basic mistake checking

[Wyrt]

Characters seem like they are relatively consistent

lol, no they aren't.

Just look at Rexxar, Voss, or Garona in BfA.

Fuck, Jaina didn't even get consistent story WITHIN the BfA story, going from hated by Kul Tirans to Lord Admiral with 0 story in between.


Blizzard's writers operate for 1 single thing: The Rule of Cool. If they think something is cool, they will do it and it does not matter at all how nonsensical or stupid it is.

[Dylamoo]

The old adage of 'too many cooks in the kitchen'. Does it matter here?

Maybe the bar is set too high. We often compare WoW's narrative to a fantasy novel where it's just 1 person's cohesive vision. This game has (ballpark guess) a dozen writers, if you're counting the outside books, comics, etc. WoW is much closer to the MCU storytelling than a Lord of the Rings.

Characters seem like they are relatively consistent, but over time it's hard to understand their motives in certain cases. Sometimes it's just because there's a new writer taking over the character for that story.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I do think this is quite fair. I do see relative consistency, however a lot of the time we see huge gaps in character development and they are often enriched by things outside the game. Which is a huge detriment, it's like star wars. If you watch the tv series, read the comics, and watch the movies. Most of it will make sense for you. If you just watch the movie, you're left feeling like you learned almost nothing. Too many chief's not enough Indians can really distort the strategy board.

[Bae]

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

[Doomchicken]

[/list]

just want to make ONE correction on this list.

for this point here: After having resolved the faction war storyline to everyone's satisfaction in MoP.

Because that's incorrect. Almost everyone hated the faction war resolution to MoP. It was not well received, nor was it well done, especially with the now empty promise from Varian that the horde would be ended if they tried anything like that again. Garrosh despite trying to murder literally everyone also gets off way too early and gets killed in a questline in WoD by everyones least favourite spotlight stealing orc Thrall, continuing a 3 expansions in a row trend of Thrall being a glory hog.

[Ophenia]

I think the HvA thing is also narrowing the possibilities...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSYG7bjitn4

[Niwes]

The old adage of 'too many cooks in the kitchen'. Does it matter here?

Maybe the bar is set too high. We often compare WoW's narrative to a fantasy novel where it's just 1 person's cohesive vision. This game has (ballpark guess) a dozen writers, if you're counting the outside books, comics, etc. WoW is much closer to the MCU storytelling than a Lord of the Rings.

Characters seem like they are relatively consistent, but over time it's hard to understand their motives in certain cases. Sometimes it's just because there's a new writer taking over the character for that story.

Thoughts?

i correct this for you: Too many shitty writers = story suffers.

[Tarba]

Well if none of them has talent who cares how many they are?

[Rexosaurus]

I think that there are a lot of problems with WoW's story, and it at least seems that having too many people handling the direction of the story is one of their problems. That said, it's hard to fully say without knowing how their internal operations work.

Personally, I think that a big problem is that the amount of story that takes place in-game is just too sparse and fragmented to tell a fulfilling story. Too much of it is either told in outside material, like books/tweets, or is left up to the players to fill in the blanks. It really shows in how poorly the story usually flows from patch to patch.