Did the Trolls build Dazar'alor or did they meet it there?

[ravenmoon]

The old gods were defeated, they lost to the titans, a small chance of succes is better than none. The way they would see it, is sure, these guys might not choose to join us, but we have a chance of weakning the tiatns stranglehold and spreading corruption to the point we can be released and fulfil our mission.

And you have to say, it nearly worked. Even if not all of us became corrupt, enough followed the old gods -- think of Deathwing who got maddened, Azshara who chose to side with them, and the many cultists who paved teh way for their voices to get louder and the doors to be open to fulfil their mission and spread their corruption.

@Aucald Curse of flesh is only relevant to titan constructs. It has nothing to do with trolls and elves who develop from the life forms Freya seeds (although the elves get further developed by the Well of eternity possibly, the shape and make up likely guided by Elune), Quillboar, furbolg etc etc.

I would guess that the old gods probably notice organic beings are subject to their corruption, and use that as a means to both impair and even convert the titan constructs that successfully stopped them.

so it's not that flesh is evil, it was just a mechanism the old gods will use to weaken the constructs so they can take control of them. But the process also grants the constructs free will. Where did you get that from.. where does it specifically say the process grants the constructs freewill .. and is that to imply that the constructs don't have free will?

Stone beings seem to have free will though.

Also some of the keepers seem to get corrupted by Yogg-Saron anyway, and they're not flesh. I'm not entirely following. It doesn't seem that consistent. IS there another cause of the keeper's corruption that seems to work now when it didn't in the days of the black empire?

Also, can you successful prove that the constructs don't have free will.. so we must look at the Earthern of Northrend, the stone vrykul etc. Machines like M.O.T.H.E.R seem to work according to their programming.

Or are you saying sentience doesn't necessarily mean free will. i.e. the constructs can be sentient but are completely locked to mode of behaviour determined by their programming they can't deviate from. This ensures they cannot be corrupted. Keepers don't have that restriction with their high intelligence and morality, or they had the spirits of the titans in them , and it's only on losing that they became susceptible in Ulduar WotLK or they had total free will to begin with so in theory could be corrupted, they were just to wise/solid to be fooled by the old gods - so it took Yogg Saron much longer to eventually trick them. Such cannot happen with constructs because they don't have free will, but must work according to their parameters, but they can be re-programmed or reforged by the keepers with new instruction, which is what Loken is doing.

So while the curse of flesh on titans is one avenue used by the old god, the other is to turn the keepers too, and have them change the constructs.. Ofc, the old gods would try everything they can to get free. The whole plan of Deathwing, the Demon Soul, luring Sargeras, then using Azshara after that failed are all parts of the plans to achieve their end game of corrupting Azeroth.

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Ravemoon's capacity to turn any thread into elfposting is astounding

That's unfair, the elves are only a side topic that came about because of their connection to trolls, sinnce we were examining trolls and how they come to be. It is also natural part of the discussion drifts to old gods, titan constructs, as it deals with how thigns are the way they are and distinguishes the different forms of life. . But don't let my strong opinions on elves derail this thread. Usually I mention something about it, someone responds only to disagree with the elf portion I stated. I respond to them to show my view on the whole thing and then they respond back on that.. and it seems that it's gone into an elf thread without meaning it to do so.

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That, and the titans don't really seem to build for convenience.

Indeed, it was a bit odd that the titan stuff looked like that. WE already have titan architecture in Ulduar, (and we see that night elven architecture from the ruins and place like Suramar/Zin'azshari are influenced by that, matching the lore of their enhanced intelligence and learning titan words and things).

However I notice that the titan giants in Uldir an other places in Zandalar have troll tusks, rather than the human looking appearances the keepers have. The same goes for those in Tol'vir. Whiles I can understand the felsh race building their own stuff around the complex, why/how does it influence Uldir guardians they certainly didn't build.

[Kathranis]

Regarding troll origins, I think only one reference actually made it in-game, but the drogbar were called rock trolls earlier in development, and certainly look like primitive trolls. Ultimately Xal'atath identifies them as failed Titanic creations, likely linking them to the stone troggs.

And while they likewise didn't make it into the game, the Cataclysm concept art for dark trolls depicts them as primitive "cave troll" types, not unlike ogres.

My guess is that with the "rock trolls" and stone troggs, the Titans may have been trying to create Titanforged in the image of Azeroth's primitive sapient life. The proto-pygmy-goblins may have been part of the same line of experiments.


Unfortunately at this point I feel it's unlikely we'll get any concrete answers, since we've already had Chronicle and the Zandalar continent. Our last hope is probably Shadowlands, assuming it explores the ancient loa to at least some degree.

[Aucald]

@Auculd Curse of flesh is only relevant to titan constructs. It has nothing to do with trolls and elves who develop from the life forms Freya seeds (although the elves get further developed by the Well of eternity possibly, the shape and make up likely guided by Elune), Quillboar, furbolg etc etc.

I would guess that the old gods probably notice organic beings are subject to their corruption, and use that as a means to both impair and even convert the titan constructs that successfully stopped them.

so it's not that flesh is evil, it was just a mechanism the old gods will use to weaken the constructs so they can take control of them. But the process also grants the constructs free will. Where did you get that from.. where does it specifically say the process grants the constructs freewill .. and is that to imply that the constructs don't have free will?

Stone beings seem to have free will though.

Also some of the keepers seem to get corrupted by Yogg-Saron anyway, and they're not flesh. I'm not entirely following. It doesn't seem that consistent. IS there another cause of the keeper's corruption that seems to work now when it didn't in the days of the black empire?

Also, can you successful prove that the constructs don't have free will.. so we must look at the Earthern of Northrend, the stone vrykul etc. Machines like M.O.T.H.E.R seem to work according to their programming.

Or are you saying sentience doesn't necessarily mean free will. i.e. the constructs can be sentient but are completely locked to mode of behaviour determined by their programming they can't deviate from. This ensures they cannot be corrupted. Keepers don't have that restriction with their high intelligence and morality, or they had the spirits of the titans in them , and it's only on losing that they became susceptible in Ulduar WotLK or they had total free will to begin with so in theory could be corrupted, they were just to wise/solid to be fooled by the old gods - so it took Yogg Saron much longer to eventually trick them. Such cannot happen with constructs because they don't have free will, but must work according to their parameters, but they can be re-programmed or reforged by the keepers with new instruction, which is what Loken is doing.

So while the curse of flesh on titans is one avenue used by the old god, the other is to turn the keepers too, and have them change the constructs.. Ofc, the old gods would try everything they can to get free. The whole plan of Deathwing, the Demon Soul, luring Sargeras, then using Azshara after that failed are all parts of the plans to achieve their end game of corrupting Azeroth.

The Curse of Flesh was a more wide-ranging gambit - designed to throw the Titanforged into disarray as they gained wills of their own, which is exactly what it did to the Mogu (causing them to rebel against Ra and imprison him as they took control of their own destinies). The Keepers were highly resistant to the Old God's corruption, but not entirely immune - Yogg-Saron focused his will on them to suborn them, succeeding in actually corrupting Loken to some degree and using him as his agent. But even after eons of being suborned we find the Keepers are relatively easy to free from his control - we basically beat it out of Thorim and Hodir, and help Freya and Mimiron throw it off for themselves. Tyr proved entirely resistant, and Odyn of course was imprisoned in his Halls of Valor and so avoided the fate of his peers.

The Titanforged's "programming" can evolve with time, but they don't have true free will as the are bound to their purpose as defined by their creators - the Earthen still maintain Azeroth's geological systems, the true Mechagnomes like those in Ulduar preserve knowledge and experiment, and the Stone Vrykul still defend the Titan installations (although few of them remain). As you can see with beings like MOTHER, isolation limits this kind of gradual development, as MOTHER is still completely robotic whereas the Keepers have defined personalities and converse like organic beings would - they have more experiences, and thus more individuality. There's also the fact that the primary Keepers and Highkeeper also received a "spark" from the Titans on the occasion of their defeat at Nihilum, and this could've further changed the Keepers and made them more individual (just like it afflicted Ra with existential despair and made him basically stop doing anything). The Keepers we see and interact with today would likely be nothing like they were when the Titans first constructed them.

Sentience and free will aren't quite the same thing, no. One can be intelligent and able to think around corners while still being locked into a specific pattern of behaviors. Mimiron himself says that Yogg-Saron was actually effecting his primary programming through his will, changing how Mimiron operated and causing him to make engines of war and so forth - although when we finally defeat his "masterpiece" it causes him to effectively have a BSOD and reboot himself, purging the corruption from his systems. Similar too when we defeat the corrupted lifeforms in Freya's sanctum, which frees her of Yogg-Saron's control as well (though she doesn't refer to this as her programming, the net-effect is the same).

The Curse of Flesh was only one element of the salvo fired against the Titanforged and the Keepers - the Curse was more about eliminating the Titanforged armies' effectiveness, whereas the Old Gods used more direct means of influence on the Keepers themselves.

[Powerogue]

I'd assume they built their cities on top of them. "I don't know mon, dis place feels special, and sure looks cool. Good place for troll capital."

[ravenmoon]

I'd assume they built their cities on top of them. "I don't know mon, dis place feels special, and sure looks cool. Good place for troll capital."

You mean Capitol mon!

[Aucald]

Regarding troll origins, I think only one reference actually made it in-game, but the drogbar were called rock trolls earlier in development, and certainly look like primitive trolls. Ultimately Xal'atath identifies them as failed Titanic creations, likely linking them to the stone troggs.

And while they likewise didn't make it into the game, the Cataclysm concept art for dark trolls depicts them as primitive "cave troll" types, not unlike ogres.

My guess is that with the "rock trolls" and stone troggs, the Titans may have been trying to create Titanforged in the image of Azeroth's primitive sapient life. The proto-pygmy-goblins may have been part of the same line of experiments.


Unfortunately at this point I feel it's unlikely we'll get any concrete answers, since we've already had Chronicle and the Zandalar continent. Our last hope is probably Shadowlands, assuming it explores the ancient loa to at least some degree.

According to Xal'atath the Drogbar are failed Titanic creations, so in the same general vein as Troggs. Although given the source this is probably something that should be taken with a grain of salt. The Drogbar are intelligent and not naturally brutish or violent, so they could well be considered as worthy of genesis as the other sentient races of Azeroth.

[Venziir]

They seem to be titan structures. As the 3 great pyramids hold seals on them. So I'm not sure they actually built it.. is there an official record stating so?

It would seem Atal'dazar they built, but are you sure of the others?

King Dazar united the trolls, lead them to the jungle where they settled in the titan ruins and build the rest of the city around it and on top of it.

[cparle87]

Since trolls are the oldest mortal race on Azeroth, it makes me wonder if the Titans made them or they evolved from an earlier race

Well, the general idea with Chronicles talking about what Freya did, the general idea I got was that the Well of Eternity supercharged evolutionary development among normal Azerothian life forms. Just like humans went from rodent like creatures to monkey to neanderthals to humans. The tauren followed a line of bovine beings, and trolls... I always got a reptilian vibe from them. What with the regenerating body parts and the sounds they make.

But all of this took place is just under 10,000 years, instead of the millions it would take in the real world. Since we had established troll empires, tauren wanderers, and such 20,000 years before the Dark Portal, and a mere 5,000 after the Aspects.

[Garymorilix]

I would suggest you first actually read up on the lore and THEN make crayz assumptions about stuff.

You literally argue about things that are written in Chronicle.

Thats actual factual Canon. You are not.

[Newname1234567890]

I think they found the titanic facilities holding the seals colonised them and copied their architecture as the trolls expended. Makes sense, if you find a secure shelter might as well take it for yourself

[ravenmoon]

I think they found the titanic facilities holding the seals colonised them and copied their architecture as the trolls expended. Makes sense, if you find a secure shelter might as well take it for yourself

That's what I am a bit unsure about.. did they copy teh Titan architecture/adapt it, or is the stuff around it entirely theirs own creation. Blizzard has shown that the night elves adapted the titan architecture - like a personalised version of the type of architecture you see in Uldaman. (When you look at both Broken isle ruins, kaldimro ruins, Suramar and Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, there is a similarity and the lore hints that in their elevation to night elves, the elves started learning and understanding titanic names - this is how they discerned the goddess Elune, calling themselves Kaldorei comes from that knoweldge as well as calling the world Kalimdor instead of Azeroth.

One wonders if the Titans should have been written to call Azeroth, Kalimdor.

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(Yes I am aware just because you call the landmass Kalimdor doesn't mean the planet goes by the same name)

[Aucald]

That's what I am a bit unsure about.. did they copy teh Titan architecture/adapt it, or is the stuff around it entirely theirs own creation. Blizzard has shown that the night elves adapted the titan architecture - like a personalised version of the type of architecture you see in Uldaman. (When you look at both Broken isle ruins, kaldimro ruins, Suramar and Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, there is a similarity and the lore hints that in their elevation to night elves, the elves started learning and understanding titanic names - this is how they discerned the goddess Elune, calling themselves Kaldorei comes from that knoweldge as well as calling the world Kalimdor instead of Azeroth.

One wonders if the Titans should have been written to call Azeroth, Kalimdor.

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(Yes I am aware just because you call the landmass Kalimdor doesn't mean the planet goes by the same name)

I would say the Trolls adapted it into their own aesthetic, as the general look of the complexes in Zandalar are very different from the Titan architecture we see elsewhere in Ulduar, Uldum, and Uldaman (such that any remains there). Generally speaking you can tell the Titanic influence was there, but it's been overlaid with the Zandalari grandeur - rolling frescos, tribal ornamentation, and ostentatious use of gold and precious stones. The Titans were big on ornamentation themselves, their architecture being grant but also utilitarian - it's impressiveness more in its scope and technology as opposed to its aesthetics.

The Elves, on the hand, seem to have taken the impressive scale of Titan aesthetics and mapped their own aesthetics onto it - gentler arcs, naturalistic motifs, and the subtle melding of stone and wood presumably via the Arcane. If I recall correctly the original name of the Kalimdor supercontinent pre-Sundering was "Kalidar," and in the WoW Alpha Kalidar was used for the island on which Teldrassil sat, before the city became Darnassus and the tree and its island known as Teldrassil.