I expected Balance Changes for Season 4

[Daan]

Balance changes in BfA? lul ... the only content which gets some class balancing is the raid or when a spec is really outperforming (like Demo warlock with pet bug and trait). Even m+ is untouched although there has been almost the same meta for four seasons.

[Jester Joe]

Don't worry though, they removed Guardian Druids from pvp, you know that one guy in top 100 that played Guardian is probably pretty upset. A shame they did nothing about Mages, Warlocks, Rogues and Demon Hunters though.

I wouldn't mind if they just did no balance changes at all, but when they go in and nerf things that aren't even a problem to begin with it just makes it look worse. Like, oh Guardian Druids are doing too much damage, but Warlocks hitting 140k Chaos Bolts every two seconds? That seems fine. Like come on, it's just a slap in the face at this point.

Warlocks aren't hitting 140k chaos bolts every two seconds.

First reason why, chaos bolts cast time is about that long, and you're leaving no time for them to generate soul shards then for them to accomplish such a feat.
That's the obvious answer.

Second and real reason why is the only time chaos bolts are going to start to hit hard is if you let a lock drop their infernal and just free cast with no punishment. That's how Grimoire of Supremacy works. And if you're not properly handling the lock during their infernal phase, then yes they're going to just build up and wreck your face. But that's not a matter of "LOCK OP NERF", that's a "You misplayed". Stun them if they popped their interrupt immunity. CC them. Trust me, the moment you get two people on you as a lock, you're not going to be able to accomplish much but running away if you can get anywhere even.

[Angrie]

as a pointed out as a long ass rogue player this is simply not true, they have a weakness, its called zerg AV/IoC sure you can go into towers, kill that glaive/tank whatever, hold the ore mine and so on.

But like all other melees you will never really be any useful in the big zergs, where the fun is in such bgs. What can you do against 20-40 other players? you basicly relly only could throw that poisoned knife or go in for a few seconds with CoS/vanish availible and try to burst 1 healer down.

Meanwhile mage, spriest, lock, laser owl do it all from safe range.

I think thats the odd side of a rogue in general pvp - we have 3 DD specs, yet not a single one is truly ranged. If a hunter finally got his melee spec, why can't a rogue get a range dd spec? Don't have to be any good in arena or raids either, just for those zergs it would be useful.

But since thats not really in the class immersion cards, they will stay with that flaw forever.

Acting like, rogues are the best class there is in pvp, is a bit ridiculous with druids beeing a thing in all aspects of pvp and 4 specs all with stealth and endless moblity and partly cc immunity while in other forms. I played both for years.

I have to say a druid is always far superior, the class i pure opness by design, its almost comical. In legion when rogues were at their best, maybe even better than in tbc, cata and wod, either through high dmg scaling in arenas, or ridiculous op legendaries in wpvp, only the TANK druid did spit him in his face, and prevouisly feral specs neutered him.

And in arenas druid just go heal, i did. i felt true power even with randoms and any variation of combs - while as rogue you better get a mage to feel the same.

Top class for pvp, and one of the best pure DD specs. Sadly not the best pvp class, bascily any class with a heal spec is the best pvp class and its all too true, as they usually come with quit strong dd specs, too.

So this is his weakness, no heal spec/no range dd spec. Use this knowledge to your advantage. :P

While i agree with you that druids is the most OP pvp class, it doesn't exclude rogue from being right up there with them. Druids have been pruned, rogues have not. An average rogue can murder pretty much any caster they want.

When all rogues had improved gouge you could literally prevent a caster from doing anything forever, 5.5s gouge + Kick + Blind + Kidney + Cheapshot + Sap... Throw cloak of shadows in the mix and it really is excessive.

In the current state, mongoloid melee is running rampant and casters just get mowed over. Even if we went back to MOP where casters could move and cast some spells, it wouldn't help. I think they should remove kick from rogues since they already have the LONGEST and lowest cooldown stun in the game (KS), while also having a stun that is forever spammable (CS), and having a spammable CC (Sap). To compare, a "kick" to melee is disarm, and you can count the amount of them in the game on 1 hand (i think just monk and warrior at this point?), while EVERY class has a kick. Enough already, prune that dumb shit out of the game.

[Tyrannica]

Rob Pardo (a really huge name at Blizzard a few years ago) flat out said in 2009 that Arena was a mistake and should've never been implemented.
He in particular citied balance issues of the mode itself and how they had to change classes just for the sake of Arena and that a "competitive E-sport" mode doesn't fit into the game.



Random guess: Won't happen.

Blizzard essentially set themselves up for an unwinable match, the concept of Class fantasy based on strength and weaknesses just doesn't work in game modes that focus on group sizes below ~8 people within a rather tiny space and only a singular objective to win the game (=killing the enemy).

If you design a class / spec that is rather squishy, they are completely fucked in such a deathmatch scenario, the complete opposite goes for CD heavy specs that can one shot people every X minutes but then become deadweights.
There are certain weakness (or strengths) can simply cannot exist within this deathmatch mode, if then throw in the removal of "hardcounters" in order to have more balanced chances against every match up, you homogenized your class design by a massive degree.

Blizzard scrambled for over a decade with Arena balance, introduced PvP Talents and other tuning knobs to balance PvP seperately from PvE and still can't get it right.
Now they decided to also balance the game around M+, which isn't necessarily similiar to raids in terms of performance.

In other words, Blizzard couldn't balance classes around two modes (Raids and Arena) and since BfA they also attempt to tackle M+ alongside it.
That won't work. Period.

Blizzard needs either implement even heavier barriers between Raids, Arena and M+ in terms of class balance or all three modes will end up as at best mediocre balanced hodgepodge(s).

At least they tried some new game mode on existing faction vs faction bg maps via brawls, i think this is the right direction, not just making a new map, but rather new game modes, the rewards however are ridiculous and it just shows how pvp vendors are needed, i mean if you do high arena rating games you get your best gear quickly, if you do some bgs you should get your best gear, too, but maybe some weeks later, provided you grind them each week. That would be ideal and pvp vendors made it possible, as shown in wod.

it felt a little bit easy to get to the best gear on your own in wod, but it was only easier, if you solo the thing, and want to play without much communication and managment of groups, which i thought was a good idea, since so many friends i used to play with in wow, like arenas simply quitted for good and never came back and server identiy was gone, too, to form groups at all times naturally.

The esport thingy does not suit a mmo too much, but at least it should have been faction vs faction based, thats kinda the core idea of playing warcraft and suits the mmo agenda, too.

would not say arena was a mistake it was rather a success in TBC, when it was more fun and unlimited 2s were treated as 3s, more ways to kill healers, like mana drain on locks and so on. But should have never been an esport thing or focused too much. Also server identy and group plays was a natural thing everywhere, for its time it was ok.

Also i think, wpvp can be huge fun, if, its not done via raids, as shown in battle of nazjatar, this kind of "pvp" does not make any sense just feels like farming something mindlessly. A big raid group on some shard vs a few people and guards is not fun. And sometimes if 2 big raids collide, we get 5 sek laggs making the thing unplayable. Raids in wpvp may exist, but should not be rewarded, they do not work. PERIOD.

Of the more subtle things blizzard did, was the blood coin system introduced in timeless isle in MoP, the marks of prey of the falcosaur faction in legion, felt great if done solo against the odds, it felt rewarding to collect marks, coins etc from your fallen opponents, it felt much more fun than to collect honor or conquest in bgs/arenas after a battle was over, because this felt more personal to loot a reward directly from a corpse, who was actual a player before.

Even reputation bars, become more enjoyable, if they are based on player kills and not some dailies.

And now we have that servant of n'zoth thing and i had a lot of fun with that, like attacking a group of 5 players solo kill 1-2 and finally get overwhelmed, but i removed the servant buff and instantly went green, this was really a hilarous fun expierence for everyone, same group of 5 players were farming horde for a pvp weekly and probably did not expect those shenigangs by another alliance player.

Also, if wpvp is kept smallscale for groups and solo, there won't be any laggs and server crashes they still happen in modern wow, think everyone expierenced the huge laggs of nazjatar when it was time to pvp there.

There should be its own wpvp skill tree, like the one we have for horrorfic visions that gives different bonus if you either do it solo or in a group. That tree would be perfect for wpvp - along with a better reward structure!

BUT, since blizz has no actual PvP Devs that have anything to say in their game, i wonder, if there will be a great pvp push in the right direction, they seem to be behind on everything and focus too much on mythic+ and even though i currently play a class that is one of the best for mythic+ content, i am not sure, if its a good idea to reward it as much as its currently the case, it takes away of incentive to do raids and pvp for gear and in the end you spent a huge chunk of your time just doing the same few dungeons you know since release.(minus operation: mechagon)

That castlevania tower copied out of "Symphony of the Night" better be good in SL, i wonder whats the pvp content in SL, anyways.

- - - Updated - - -

While i agree with you that druids is the most OP pvp class, it doesn't exclude rogue from being right up there with them. Druids have been pruned, rogues have not. An average rogue can murder pretty much any caster they want.

When all rogues had improved gouge you could literally prevent a caster from doing anything forever, 5.5s gouge + Kick + Blind + Kidney + Cheapshot + Sap... Throw cloak of shadows in the mix and it really is excessive.

In the current state, mongoloid melee is running rampant and casters just get mowed over. Even if we went back to MOP where casters could move and cast some spells, it wouldn't help. I think they should remove kick from rogues since they already have the LONGEST and lowest cooldown stun in the game (KS), while also having a stun that is forever spammable (CS), and having a spammable CC (Sap). To compare, a "kick" to melee is disarm, and you can count the amount of them in the game on 1 hand (i think just monk and warrior at this point?), while EVERY class has a kick. Enough already, prune that dumb shit out of the game.

Well rogues got pruned, too, i just explained what got pruned, the rogue class was much more powerful than in BfA, even feint had a much shorter cd, it was only 5 sec in legion, for example.

Also some utility like Burst of Speed got simply pruned.

Out in the open, just the expansion before bfa in legion rogues could kill a raid with the correct legendary that improved fan of knives. I can provide you with video footage if you are interested, killing a raid with just an application of fan of knives empowered by a legendary was a real meme.

now, every other class got pruned, too, the prunning reduced some of the personal power of the rogue class, but not their synergy in arenas, so rm/x comps are still as deadly to face.

Yeah it just looks dumb to see mongolid melees jumping at everything, wpvp or tunnel in arenas, but in fact they are not as powerful as casters, that dominate every pvp aspect in the game, no matter where you look. I guess we play melees for asthetics more than actual personal class power. If you see high rated arena dominated by them, even though people complain about DH/DK and see always top dmg and kills in AV/IoC done by mages, owls, spriest and in additon you can watch dalarans 5vs5 1vs1 and see destro locks and arcane mages dominating, too.

Even, when a caster acts like an actual caster, like in classic wow, they are still dominating melee. Everyone asks for frost mage/lock and spriests are duel kings. Rogue will soon become a meme, when naxx gear is out, he benefits currently from a strong opener on people with low hp pools. I wanted to play one, but without CoS i rather opt out, there is no arena mage that can save you in classic and helps you to reset the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't worry though, they removed Guardian Druids from pvp, you know that one guy in top 100 that played Guardian is probably pretty upset. A shame they did nothing about Mages, Warlocks, Rogues and Demon Hunters though.

I wouldn't mind if they just did no balance changes at all, but when they go in and nerf things that aren't even a problem to begin with it just makes it look worse. Like, oh Guardian Druids are doing too much damage, but Warlocks hitting 140k Chaos Bolts every two seconds? That seems fine. Like come on, it's just a slap in the face at this point.

Well, see it that way, at least that 140k chaos bolt came from a pure DD class, imagine that from a hybrid class, very well like the druid, who could also insta proc king of the jungle and just use swiftflightform along with hots and stealth. So yeah i think thats kinda balanced? And regarding arenas they assumingly still the most op heal spec? did not check, because i stopped to care about arena some time ago, in like legion only check the ladder boards every other time.

meanwhile i saw an unholy dk, killing 5 ppl in arena in a 1vs1 arena wargame and he kind made the world record in quickness. His main dmg was just autoattack and passives. Smaller numbers, but much more deadly than a destro lock. A destro lock would never made it this quick, he still needs to cast and use his infernal cd, shards and so on.




People here should probably watch more Dalaran videos....cause we are only talking merely arena and class balance, not arena and team balance, this is the way to go.

Quite a number of classes are strong - but when dmg is merely just autoattack and passives, i think we got a problem, afaik another change from legion to bfa. Any pyro/chaos bolt at least needed a setup, like a cc or cd a cast to get there. Maybe not complex/fun either, but at least the class did something to get there.

Maybe blizz tried to make classes diverse that way, but should shift away from that and rather try to make classes more interesting. Like you thought DH are cool? In PvE that might be true, in PvP they are super boring to play and it feels lame, just cleave dmg and leech abuse, totally predictable with autoattack/passive talents better than those that require a button to push.

Do, the devs have a class team? Looks like only artists working there and raid designers.

I don't know about you guys, but if classes are no longer fun to play, due to lack of complexity and surprises, i probably stop caring for balance. Balance is the least of the problems - its kinda balanced, just in flat and dumb ways.

[DemonDays]

as a pointed out as a long ass rogue player this is simply not true, they have a weakness, its called zerg AV/IoC sure you can go into towers, kill that glaive/tank whatever, hold the ore mine and so on.

But like all other melees you will never really be any useful in the big zergs, where the fun is in such bgs. What can you do against 20-40 other players? you basicly relly only could throw that poisoned knife or go in for a few seconds with CoS/vanish availible and try to burst 1 healer down.

Meanwhile mage, spriest, lock, laser owl do it all from safe range.

I think thats the odd side of a rogue in general pvp - we have 3 DD specs, yet not a single one is truly ranged. If a hunter finally got his melee spec, why can't a rogue get a range dd spec? Don't have to be any good in arena or raids either, just for those zergs it would be useful.

But since thats not really in the class immersion cards, they will stay with that flaw forever.

Acting like, rogues are the best class there is in pvp, is a bit ridiculous with druids beeing a thing in all aspects of pvp and 4 specs all with stealth and endless moblity and partly cc immunity while in other forms. I played both for years.

I have to say a druid is always far superior, the class i pure opness by design, its almost comical. In legion when rogues were at their best, maybe even better than in tbc, cata and wod, either through high dmg scaling in arenas, or ridiculous op legendaries in wpvp, only the TANK druid did spit him in his face, and prevouisly feral specs neutered him.

And in arenas druid just go heal, i did. i felt true power even with randoms and any variation of combs - while as rogue you better get a mage to feel the same.

Top class for pvp, and one of the best pure DD specs. Sadly not the best pvp class, bascily any class with a heal spec is the best pvp class and its all too true, as they usually come with quit strong dd specs, too.

So this is his weakness, no heal spec/no range dd spec. Use this knowledge to your advantage. :P

Your only weakness is a form of content? Large scale BGs? That isn't a weakness. That's a form of content being poorly designed for zerg vs zerg.

You can still re-cap towers and stuff with other stealth classes.

Rogues have no weakness. They are good at everything class design wise. They are also good in 95% of content(not big bgs as you pointed out). Whilst being on top in Mythic+ and Arena.

[Tyrannica]

Druids have no weakness. They are good at everything class design wise. They are also good in 95% of content(not big bgs as you pointed out). Whilst being on top in Mythic+ and Arena.

Corrected that for you, so your sentence makes sense now. A class with stealth, that has 4 specs can tank, heal, has meele dd and range dd has absolutely no weakness. The best part is, each of their specs perform like a God tier in a specific content or 2.

No news, that stealth classes can re-cap towers in big bgs, but a druid, unlike a rogue is excellent in zergs too, and much more solo efficient in every content of the game. Guess whats more fun, having a varation of good options, or just wait for opponents in a tower for a big part of the duration of the game, with all the healers usually at the front lines? Feels like waiting for a rare respawn. Its not too interesting, to be efficent as a rogue.
Besides a whole raid of faction opponents can see you now, due to DHs, that on their own could be controlled, but not with many people as back up to throw you out of stealth. The sneaky times are over in bgs.

He has a good spot in mythic+, but so does DH and mages, its not really impressive at all, beeing good in mythic+ or any other pve content as a rogue, you have 3 dd specs, after all? You better be a good dd?

Arena, pretty much the same, you strongest spec is a straightforward pve spec about melee dots with similar pve rotation that you have to use in any situation of the game, even arena. Assassin not really much more complex than playing DH, and if you go sub, you locked out of any pve progress and still need to switch to either outlaw or assassin.

Good does not equal fun, you are locked into a squishy melee dd spec, that is limiting what your class could do and how you play, while most other classes have a little more variation, since BfA is all but alt friendly this is something to consider.





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[Rucati]

Warlocks aren't hitting 140k chaos bolts every two seconds.

First reason why, chaos bolts cast time is about that long, and you're leaving no time for them to generate soul shards then for them to accomplish such a feat.
That's the obvious answer.

Second and real reason why is the only time chaos bolts are going to start to hit hard is if you let a lock drop their infernal and just free cast with no punishment. That's how Grimoire of Supremacy works. And if you're not properly handling the lock during their infernal phase, then yes they're going to just build up and wreck your face. But that's not a matter of "LOCK OP NERF", that's a "You misplayed". Stun them if they popped their interrupt immunity. CC them. Trust me, the moment you get two people on you as a lock, you're not going to be able to accomplish much but running away if you can get anywhere even.

I've been over 2k as a Lock every season since Legion. The only Warlock getting shut down by two people is a bad Warlock. Hitting 140k Chaos Bolts can only happen under CDs, sure, but you also have your CDs every 2 minutes and they last for 20 seconds. There's almost a 0% chance you get shut down for 20 straight seconds unless you do something horribly wrong. Not to mention you're saying that it takes an entire team to shut down a Warlock, but the problem there is you're assuming it's an entire team against a solo Warlock. The Warlock has teammates, almost always a Rogue or Mage, that help to set up kills. Good luck doing anything when my Rogue full Kidney + Bombs someone while I pop all my CDs and two shot them.

But if you think Warlocks are supposed to run away that's likely your problem. Warlocks are literally turrets, you stand still and soak damage with you 450k health and bonus armor and wait until you land CC to get kills. The only time you're running is if you're under 20% health with no defensives left, and that doesn't happen all that often.

[avx81]

Pvp has always taken a backseat to pve in this game. With the layoff of a lot of their staff, it's only natural that pvp has the least amount of changes in a game that is already suffering from lack of changes.

Ya because PvE is so balanced right now. Nevermind the fact that frost mages, sub rogues, demo locks, ww monks are bottom of the barrel low dps in raids. Fire mages are doing like 15%+ more damage than frost mages in raids and m+. Resto druids and prot warriors going on for 3 seasons now dominating m+. Prot warriors making up almost every tank during the MDI but not even being looked at. It's more like they don't care about the current state of balance period. The game is not even remotely balanced with as much as a 20% difference between the bottom dps and top dps specs in raids.

[nyc81991]

The WoW team is incompetent and a shell of it's former self. The game has gone to crap and I honestly don't see it getting better anytime soon unless they make huge changes to the people making decisions.

[Biomega]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: decouple PvP and PvE more, not less, and a lot of WoW's problems actually solve themselves. Go nuts on PvE with OP shit all you like, and have PvP be something separate with more balance and less outrageous abilities. Instead, they opted to mix the two so you have a boring-ass rotation in PvE but still have to deal with broken bullshit in PvP.

Prune every class down to bare essentials. Then have an extensive talent tree for both PvE and PvP that adds back abilities as you choose. Instanced PvE only works with the PvE tree. Instanced PvP only works with the PvP tree. Warmode you can let people choose one or the other, non-Warmode is PvE only.

Make those talent trees include meaningful choice - for the Rogue example, you could e.g. pick up either Kick -or- Kidney Shot (arbitrary example) but not both; Cloak of Shadows -or- Cheat Death. That sort of thing.

But I guess Blizzard stubbornly clings to this whole idea of "everyone wants to PvE and PvP in equal parts and we want people to jump from a mythic raid to a 3v3 Arena without changing a thing!" which is both outrageously stupid and fantastically impossible to balance.

[Jingoism]

Gonna ask again when did they lay off any pvp staff exactly?

When did they have pvp staff? Pvp for blizz seems like an afterthought these days.

[Phurox]

Blizzard just thought that it's a good idea to bring raid bosses to pvp now that pve has it.

And by raid bosses I mean healers.

[Nuba]

People act like this is something that happened in BfA only. Seeing this is about arena it was never balanced. Never. It has been like this in Arenas since The Burning Crusade.

I get it though, it is other times now, you would think balance in PvP Arenas would be better now than 2/4/8/12 years ago. Sadly the bar barely moved those years.

And poor balance is not because of the laid off staff. Come on. What was the excuse in WotLK/Cata? Too many employees? What about WoD? The 6 employees at work had too much to handle?

in wotlk and cata they'd at least launch one balance update every X months, every patch or whatever
they'd try.
in wotlk we had huge changes going from 3.0 to 3.1 to 3.2 and 3.3, huge changes tbh, especially given how the last patch changed so much and made arena nearly perfect balance-wise (Everyone will always tell you, truthfully, that Season 8 was the best season this game has ever had)

Them not doing any balance changes for 3 patches straight.... This is indeed BFA-exclusive.

[Mozu]

Ya because PvE is so balanced right now. Nevermind the fact that frost mages, sub rogues, demo locks, ww monks are bottom of the barrel low dps in raids. Fire mages are doing like 15%+ more damage than frost mages in raids and m+. Resto druids and prot warriors going on for 3 seasons now dominating m+. Prot warriors making up almost every tank during the MDI but not even being looked at. It's more like they don't care about the current state of balance period. The game is not even remotely balanced with as much as a 20% difference between the bottom dps and top dps specs in raids.

Frost mage is not a class. Mage is a class. Sub rogue is not a class, rogue is a class. It is unreasonable to expect all 3 of your specs to be equally balanced every patch. If one of the specs is balanced, your class is balanced.

[Jester Joe]

I've been over 2k as a Lock every season since Legion. The only Warlock getting shut down by two people is a bad Warlock. Hitting 140k Chaos Bolts can only happen under CDs, sure, but you also have your CDs every 2 minutes and they last for 20 seconds. There's almost a 0% chance you get shut down for 20 straight seconds unless you do something horribly wrong. Not to mention you're saying that it takes an entire team to shut down a Warlock, but the problem there is you're assuming it's an entire team against a solo Warlock. The Warlock has teammates, almost always a Rogue or Mage, that help to set up kills. Good luck doing anything when my Rogue full Kidney + Bombs someone while I pop all my CDs and two shot them.

But if you think Warlocks are supposed to run away that's likely your problem. Warlocks are literally turrets, you stand still and soak damage with you 450k health and bonus armor and wait until you land CC to get kills. The only time you're running is if you're under 20% health with no defensives left, and that doesn't happen all that often.

I don't understand why you started off the post saying that I'm right, but then you go on to try to use ideal situations to show that a lock shouldn't be getting stopped that much.

Not all locks are going to have a rogue teammate.
And sometimes you'll end up against a rogue who can sit on you alone basically to stun lock and screw you up. Never said that it takes an entire team to shut down a warlock, or that the warlock was alone, but that no good team is going to leave a warlock to free cast.

Which is something you should know since you feel the need to bring up your experience

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When did they have pvp staff? Pvp for blizz seems like an afterthought these days.

Given that they did koroks revenge, azerite shore, reworked the that panda one and added multiple areas and of every thing pre bfa they always had pvp devs.

[Rucati]

I don't understand why you started off the post saying that I'm right, but then you go on to try to use ideal situations to show that a lock shouldn't be getting stopped that much.

Not all locks are going to have a rogue teammate.
And sometimes you'll end up against a rogue who can sit on you alone basically to stun lock and screw you up. Never said that it takes an entire team to shut down a warlock, or that the warlock was alone, but that no good team is going to leave a warlock to free cast.

Which is something you should know since you feel the need to bring up your experience

Ideal situations? It was a random situation, it doesn't matter what the Warlock's teammates is, nor does it matter what they're playing against.

A Rogue isn't really stopping a Lock for any length of time, unless the Lock is an idiot and pops CDs first global. As long as the Warlock waits for a bit and lets the Rogue use Kidney/kick it's still fine. And if the Rogue holds Kidney/Kick until CDs you win anyway because the Rogue no longer is doing anything.

It doesn't matter if the team leaves the Warlock alone or not, a good Warlock is still topping damage in every game and still getting off multiple 140k+ Chaos Bolts every game. And those numbers are just gonna get higher as Warlocks get to 470ilvl and gain even more Mastery. Personally I'm looking forward to two shotting people for the next 10 months, but it does make me have no interest at all in playing any of my other characters in arena.

[Jester Joe]

Ideal situations? It was a random situation, it doesn't matter what the Warlock's teammates is, nor does it matter what they're playing against.

A Rogue isn't really stopping a Lock for any length of time, unless the Lock is an idiot and pops CDs first global. As long as the Warlock waits for a bit and lets the Rogue use Kidney/kick it's still fine. And if the Rogue holds Kidney/Kick until CDs you win anyway because the Rogue no longer is doing anything.

It doesn't matter if the team leaves the Warlock alone or not, a good Warlock is still topping damage in every game and still getting off multiple 140k+ Chaos Bolts every game. And those numbers are just gonna get higher as Warlocks get to 470ilvl and gain even more Mastery. Personally I'm looking forward to two shotting people for the next 10 months, but it does make me have no interest at all in playing any of my other characters in arena.

Your argument here is boiling down to "If a rogue can't use two of their moves then you win, because a rogue can't do anything else but a warlock obviously can do more while being unable to use anything big" it seems. Which is obviously flawed, there's more that a rogue can do than just stun or interrupt. And even if the rogue pops their interrupts or stuns, that still leaves their teammate up to do the same.

And again, no one is debating that Chaos bolt can hit hard. It's the claim of it being "every 2 seconds".

[Rucati]

Your argument here is boiling down to "If a rogue can't use two of their moves then you win, because a rogue can't do anything else but a warlock obviously can do more while being unable to use anything big" it seems. Which is obviously flawed, there's more that a rogue can do than just stun or interrupt. And even if the rogue pops their interrupts or stuns, that still leaves their teammate up to do the same.

And again, no one is debating that Chaos bolt can hit hard. It's the claim of it being "every 2 seconds".

If you're just going to completely ignore the point and focus on things that don't matter there's no real sense continuing this.

You said a Rogue can sit on a Warlock alone and stun lock, and I explained that isn't how it works.

And it's very easy to cast 3 Chaos Bolts in 7 seconds, which is almost exactly every 2 seconds. Of course it isn't every 2 seconds for the entire game, that was very obviously not what I was implying. But in the span of 5-7 seconds you can easily cast 2 or 3 Chaos Bolts and kill someone, which is about 5+ seconds faster than any other class can kill 100% to 0.

[Jester Joe]

If you're just going to completely ignore the point and focus on things that don't matter there's no real sense continuing this.

You said a Rogue can sit on a Warlock alone and stun lock, and I explained that isn't how it works.

And it's very easy to cast 3 Chaos Bolts in 7 seconds, which is almost exactly every 2 seconds. Of course it isn't every 2 seconds for the entire game, that was very obviously not what I was implying. But in the span of 5-7 seconds you can easily cast 2 or 3 Chaos Bolts and kill someone, which is about 5+ seconds faster than any other class can kill 100% to 0.

Please quote me on that?

You're the one who brought up rogues, not me. And I never said anything about a rogue being able to stun lock.

And a whole 7 seconds of burst range. Which classes like rogue could cloak of shadows. Other locks could nether ward. Paladins can bubble. It goes on.

Lastly, no, it's not "very obviously not" what you were implying when you flat out said "140k chaos bolts EVERY 2 seconds". Because again, it's not "every 2 seconds".
Even in your situation of 5-7 seconds, it takes several casts to get Grim of Supremacy to stack up to that point to be able to hit that hard.