Screw corrupted gear

[cparle87]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...le-for-Azeroth



Did they accomplish it, obviously not. But they DID say it.

You misunderstood. I'm not saying they didn't say it, I know they did. I'm saying they're not doing a good job living up to it.

[Jester Joe]

We'll just have to a agree to disagree then, I think ilvl shouldn't even be shown honestly, shouldn't be trackable, should even be in the API, only stats and effects should matter.

And if the newer raided doesn't have a better trinket then an older raid, well that's blizzards fault in balancing.

Never, all debates on the internet must go until we're frothing with rage at each other because opinions must be facts.

:P
I mean, fair enough though. Wasn't it with Wrath that ilvl became a panel on the character page?

I don't agree simply because I find it more fun to be able to gear up, and I hate having one thing tying me down because "it's better". But that's just me personally.

You misunderstood. I'm not saying they didn't say it, I know they did. I'm saying they're not doing a good job living up to it.

Oh, yeah I thought you meant "farfetched" as in "they never said it". Sorry.

(All of this just led to me getting a Infinite Stars ring with 75 corruption on it from my emissary anyway, so obviously now this system is fine)

[Onikaroshi]

Never, all debates on the internet must go until we're frothing with rage at each other because opinions must be facts.

:P
I mean, fair enough though. Wasn't it with Wrath that ilvl became a panel on the character page?

I don't agree simply because I find it more fun to be able to gear up, and I hate having one thing tying me down because "it's better". But that's just me personally.

Cata, Wrath was the rise of "gearscore".

I agree gearing up can be fun, but just slapping it on because it's higher ilvl? Takes a lot of fun out of gear.

It's probably mostly because Blizzard's stat pool in today's game is very dull. Main stat does nothing for specs that don't use it, it basically only does AP/SP now, and the secondary stat pool is limited and has one of the most boring stats ever created... vers.

[rhorle]

It's not a matter of whether they succeeded or not, it's the fact that they tried to claim they want ilvl to trump everything but then they do things like corrupted gear.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52048880

In that post you provided a snip it from the devs. It says that item level should generally tell you if something is an upgrade or not. And it does. Corruption, and any item with a special effect, will remove it from item level being important every time. Because the power of that effect is what is important. It is why trinkets will always look at item level second and the effect first.

There is no way around this issue with out removing effects from certain item levels. Even capping the amount of the effect will still mean a lower item level can be an upgrade over a higher one with out that effect. Also by your own evidence they never said item level should trump everything. Only that it should be a good guide.

[Jester Joe]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52048880

In that post you provided a snip it from the devs. It says that item level should generally tell you if something is an upgrade or not. And it does. Corruption, and any item with a special effect, will remove it from item level being important every time. Because the power of that effect is what is important. It is why trinkets will always look at item level second and the effect first.

There is no way around this issue with out removing effects from certain item levels. Even capping the amount of the effect will still mean a lower item level can be an upgrade over a higher one with out that effect. Also by your own evidence they never said item level should trump everything. Only that it should be a good guide.

And this easily gets shot in the foot by the fact that they also admitted benthic gear was a mistake.

The fact is they keep saying repeatedly they want ilvl to matter, but then they keep doing the same exact mistakes that screw things over.

They said in regards to Legion Legendaries if they could redo them from scratch, it would have been all utility/fun stuff, not straight up damage gains. And then they add effects again to gear that are just as bad as having to "need" a specific legendary with corruption.

[rhorle]

And this easily gets shot in the foot by the fact that they also admitted benthic gear was a mistake.

Where have they said Benthic is a mistake? I have missed that.

Of course they keep saying item level should be the guide for an upgrade. And that you won't need a sim. But they still want to add "effects" because it makes things interesting. The only way to stop it from happening with effects is to tie the power of the effect in to the item level of the item. In which case you remove scaling with players stats. There is a case for that but it also becomes boring when your trinket, or corruption, is relatively powerless when compared to the rest of your stats.

Item level is still a general guide even with corruption. They still need to work on it but it is hardly something that needs to be taken to extremes to attack them over. They keep experimenting to find what can work with in their vision. I'd rather have some failed attempts then no effects or fun stuff at all.

[Tabrotar]

I just don't get it, if a blue 415 is better than a epic 445, then wear the blue. so simple.
All you do is bitch instead of playing and all your crying is just looking for excuses, in case somebody does more dps.
Random effects gives more depth to the play in my opinion. And a random proc can be fun.

You know: Everybody prays classic, but for exapmle my pala has to wear blue cloth, because it is better than T1 or T2 in some slots.
And nobody complains about that, everybody cheers for classic. Bullshit.

Hm maybe just maybe it´s bcs blizz themself aka the all high and mighty people you seem to worship told us that simming gear is bad and that you should be able to just equip a new piece of gear if it´s some ilvl above the ones you have atm.

But somehow you seem to overlook this, which i find amusing and it clearly shows where you´re comming from

[Onikaroshi]

Where have they said Benthic is a mistake? I have missed that.

Of course they keep saying item level should be the guide for an upgrade. And that you won't need a sim. But they still want to add "effects" because it makes things interesting. The only way to stop it from happening with effects is to tie the power of the effect in to the item level of the item. In which case you remove scaling with players stats. There is a case for that but it also becomes boring when your trinket, or corruption, is relatively powerless when compared to the rest of your stats.

Item level is still a general guide even with corruption. They still need to work on it but it is hardly something that needs to be taken to extremes to attack them over.

They didn't say benthic gear was a mistake, they said SOCKETS on benthic gear were an ACTUAL mistake, like an oversight, they didn't actually intend them to have sockets

[Jester Joe]

Where have they said Benthic is a mistake? I have missed that.

Of course they keep saying item level should be the guide for an upgrade. And that you won't need a sim. But they still want to add "effects" because it makes things interesting. The only way to stop it from happening with effects is to tie the power of the effect in to the item level of the item. In which case you remove scaling with players stats. There is a case for that but it also becomes boring when your trinket, or corruption, is relatively powerless when compared to the rest of your stats.

Item level is still a general guide even with corruption. They still need to work on it but it is hardly something that needs to be taken to extremes to attack them over.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=296020/...-steve-aguilar

First minute of the video basically.

The question is "Sockets on benthic gear" yes, but Ion does go on to talk about how it was the combination of the sockets with other issues.

They keep repeating this in multiple ways, and it all keeps going back to the same core issue Ion keeps insisting, that they want item level to be reliable, and for people to not have to sim a 20 item level upgrade to find out it's really a downgrade because that just feels bad for the players. But then they keep adding things like this, corruption, azerite traits, sockets on rings.

And absolutely not. I just got a ring with Infinite stars, simmed it. 8k dps increase. That is not "relatively powerless".

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't say benthic gear was a mistake, they said SOCKETS on benthic gear were an ACTUAL mistake, like an oversight, they didn't actually intend them to have sockets

It still ties back into the issue of them wanting item level to be the best.

And they didn't say it was an ACTUAL mistake, they said in hindsight it was. That they didn't intend for people to just keep rerolling for sockets.

[Onikaroshi]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=296020/...-steve-aguilar

First minute of the video basically.

The question is "Sockets on benthic gear" yes, but Ion does go on to talk about how it was the combination of the sockets with other issues.

They keep repeating this in multiple ways, and it all keeps going back to the same core issue Ion keeps insisting, that they want item level to be reliable, and for people to not have to sim a 20 item level upgrade to find out it's really a downgrade because that just feels bad for the players. But then they keep adding things like this, corruption, azerite traits, sockets on rings.

And absolutely not. I just got a ring with Infinite stars, simmed it. 8k dps increase. That is not "relatively powerless".

- - - Updated - - -



It still ties back into the issue of them wanting item level to be the best.

And they didn't say it was an ACTUAL mistake, they said in hindsight it was. That they didn't intend for people to just keep rerolling for sockets.

Did you actually watch it? They flat out said they never intended them to have sockets but once it was out there it was too late

[rhorle]

And absolutely not. I just got a ring with Infinite stars, simmed it. 8k dps increase. That is not "relatively powerless".

Maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't say corruption in its current form would be relatively powerless. I said a non-scaling fixed value would be relatively powerless as we increase our other stats. It is why player abilities scale based on attack or spell power for example. To keep those abilities relevant as we gear up. Corruption, trinkets, rings, and what not are treated the same.

It is why they are percentage based and not fixed value.

Also your own video doesn't say Benthic was a mistake. It says there were mistakes with Benthic. It is funny how you keep deliberately misrepresenting things as said. "Sockets on Benthic gear was that a whoopsie". "Yes". Which were using to say all Benthic gear was a mistake.

Blizzard is trying to offer fun game play with scaling effects/abilities but still make it easy to tell what is an upgrade and what isn't. It is hard to do that with using Item Level as the only factor because of how things all interact. It doesn't mean that it isn't a good guiding principle to try and keep in mind in all cases. A guiding principle is not a hard rule in all situations.

[Jester Joe]

Did you actually watch it? They flat out said they never intended them to have sockets but once it was out there it was too late

I would suggest you rewatch it then.

NOWHERE did they say "We didn't intend this". Just that how it worked out was a "whoopsie".

Unless you truly honestly think Blizzard made sure the items couldn't warforge/titanforge, but somehow just magically forgot to take away sockets.
It's a situation where hindsight is 20/20. They thought it was fine, and then after they were like "wait, people are just gambling for it now".

[tankbug]

I think corrupted gear adds a new dimension to the system, fun stuff!

[Onikaroshi]

I would suggest you rewatch it then.

NOWHERE did they say "We didn't intend this". Just that how it worked out was a "whoopsie".

Unless you truly honestly think Blizzard made sure the items couldn't warforge/titanforge, but somehow just magically forgot to take away sockets.
It's a situation where hindsight is 20/20. They thought it was fine, and then after they were like "wait, people are just gambling for it now".

I did, to me what he said was that they flat out didn't intend for them to be on there. And yes, things like that can happen in programming

[rhorle]

I would suggest you rewatch it then. NOWHERE did they say "We didn't intend this". Just that how it worked out was a "whoopsie".

I suggest you watch it again. He clearly says it is a hard thing to roll back once it is out there. Answering a clear yes to was it a whoopsie is clearly stating "We didn't intend this". "Once it was out there it is to late to take it back".

It is so weird how they can literally say they made a mistake and it was never supposed to have sockets. But people will only see the narrative they want and actually claim that something doesn't state what it actually does.

[Jester Joe]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't say corruption in its current form would be relatively powerless. I said a non-scaling fixed value would be relatively powerless as we increase our other stats. It is why player abilities scale based on attack or spell power for example. To keep those abilities relevant as we gear up. Corruption, trinkets, rings, and what not are treated the same.

It is why they are percentage based and not fixed value.

Also your own video doesn't say Benthic was a mistake. It says there were mistakes with Benthic. It is funny how you keep deliberately misrepresenting things as said.

That isn't "misrepresenting" at all. I simply pointed out that they even had the same issue with Benthic gear, and admitted it was a mistake that it was far more valuable than gear that was 30 ilvls higher than it. Sockets came into play, yes. But the issue with sockets is the same issue with corruption. it's a chance to get it, which makes a drastic power swing in different directions. A ring with a socket and ideal stats? You could be stuck with that until you get something 30-40 ilvls higher. Which they said was a mistake in Legion.

I don't know much more clear to make this. You came in claiming

n that post you provided a snip it from the devs. It says that item level should generally tell you if something is an upgrade or not. And it does.

and

Also by your own evidence they never said item level should trump everything. Only that it should be a good guide.

THAT was misrepresenting what Blizzard said.
Because of one simple point you missed-

You shouldn't have to run sims to find out of items are an upgrade.

The only way that is possible is if item level is always better. In every situation. Otherwise, you'll always have to sim to find out if something is an upgrade.

The situation we're in right now is one that corruption trumps item level, which flies in their face on the philosophy. No matter how much you want to claim "Well, they didn't say...", they did. That's the issue. They flat out said "we don't want you to sim to find out an item level upgrade is a downgrade".

And yet they keep throwing in effects like this. I wouldn't care so much if it wasn't for the fact that what they say they want to do is the complete opposite of what is done. Azerite traits causing gear to be worse because your 390 has ideal traits while your 425 piece has bad ones. Sockets on rings. Corruption.

It's just silly at this point.

[Casperite]

This guy just explained it. I actually kinda like the system because it’s a change right...but hope the rng doesn’t matter to much for the mediocre player which I am lol I’m def not casual but im not hardcore so if this system works then its ok for one patch. Who cares let’s just hope shadowlands is a fuckin breakthrough.

This guy's #3 and #5 point aren't valid, so still same 3 layers according to him. You will be able to add gem slots soon through an item bought from Wrathion.

[Jester Joe]

I suggest you watch it again. He clearly says it is a hard thing to roll back once it is out there. Answering a clear yes to was it a whoopsie is clearly stating "We didn't intend this". "Once it was out there it is to late to take it back".

It is so weird how they can literally say they made a mistake and it was never supposed to have sockets. But people will only see the narrative they want and actually claim that something doesn't state what it actually does.

Not intending a behavior is never saying "it wasn't suppose to have sockets at all".

The "whoopsie" was in regards to the way it was handled. If it was a legit bug that they weren't meant to have sockets, they would have patched it out the moment servers went live and they realized. No matter how much you want to say "well it's hard to take back!", they take back situations all the time when their reasoning it "It's a bug". Yet they didn't do it here, because it was obviously intended but the way the players used it was not.

[Onikaroshi]

Not intending a behavior is never saying "it wasn't suppose to have sockets at all".

The "whoopsie" was in regards to the way it was handled. If it was a legit bug that they weren't meant to have sockets, they would have patched it out the moment servers went live and they realized. No matter how much you want to say "well it's hard to take back!", they take back situations all the time when their reasoning it "It's a bug". Yet they didn't do it here, because it was obviously intended but the way the players used it was not.

They probably would have taken the sockets back, but after the shit show that was the tmog item from the first uldir boss.... Yes they would rather people be annoyed at farming benthic (and really.... How many people actually did, probably less than 1%)

[rhorle]

The only way that is possible is if item level is always better. In every situation. Otherwise, you'll always have to sim to find out if something is an upgrade.

It is? This very thread has a case of someone claiming to know a corrupted 415 is an upgrade over a 445 item level with out running a sim. Funny isn't it? That general knowledge of your class or power of corrupted effects can tell you if something is generally an upgrade or not.

And you didn't simply point out they had the same issue with Benthic gear. You claimed they said Benthic was a mistake. Your proof of that claim is them saying sockets on Benthic were a mistake. You even tried to argue that they don't even say that.

The post of your devs you provided earlier literally has them saying "item level should be a general guide". What part of general guide don't you understand? If something is a general guide you don't have to sim it in order to find out if it is an upgrade or not. You shouldn't have to doesn't mean you will never have to if you care about min/max every little detail of gear upgrades.

You are right. It is just silly at this point. How you keep twisting the words of Blizzard while refusing to admit you keep twisting them.