Why am I doing all this grinding anyway? It'll just be worthless and reset soon.

[Noxina]

In Vanilla it was this way a little bit, but even back then nearly every new raid would replace the majority of your gear. Starting in TBC outside of maybe trinkets you'd absolutely replace 95% of your gear every new raid tier.

Few catchup mechanics though, now you can literally not play the whole expansion, jump in the last patch and get almost as good gear as those who have played the whole time, in a couple of weeks due to catch up mechanics making EVERYTHING previous to current content trivial and useless.

In Vanilla you'd need to grind dungeons to get ready for raid (not talking about classic where we knew what we where doing, and thus oneshot MC with questing greens and class stacking). Then use MC gear to prepare for BWL and so forth. Sure dungeon gear got an upgrade in 1.12 (which is the patch Classic is at), so there was some kind of catch up from that. But it was a grindy slope of gear, which made it a far more rewarding system for a lot of people.

The downside with such a system is that if you're not raiding, you will have to find a group for the lower raids to get into raiding. So you can't really get a spot in a current raid guild, you'd need to PUG your way up or find a guild interested in boosting you through MC, ZG and BWL to get you ready for AQ40 (and to help you farm NR gear if needed).

Now you log in on your new alt for 8.12 or what ever patch it is now (I dont play retail anymore), do the new catch-up mechanig, and get your ilvl in order so you can start spammnig m+ for upgrades. Then pug what ever raid there is on normal, get decent logs and apply for an HC or Mythic guild.

Both system got their ups and downs.

[Chonar]

Man why do I get up in the morning if I just have to go back to bed in the evening aw man

... lol this sounded a lot more depressing than I intended

[vashe9]

I mean, if you don't enjoy the raid or dungeons, yeah that's one thing. Not liking dailies is another, and I was just saying the other day I'm kinda annoyed we *have* to do dailies, but at least you get so many visions now from doing everything (just over 4.6 keys before any chests, rares, events, and visions looted off of bodies, with over 2 of those keys coming just from Tuesday reset). The best thing is you can just do all your effort on a Tuesday and still get those 2 keys and you'll never be behind on the cloak.

Gear drops though, again, if you don't like PvP, M+, or Raiding, then idk what to tell you.

But you still have to to uldum daily quests for the Rank3 essence if you're dps

[shise]

As mentioned above, that is all MMORPGs ever.
It is the way they are designed until someone comes up with a new idea that works

[Biske]

Started really feeling it a while back, so I just stopped raiding and started collecting mounts and doing other bullshit that isn't affected by xpacks, along with some low effort stuff that doesn't matter when it gets reset (LFR and low Mythic+). I miss out on Ahead of the Curve mounts, but... *shrug*. I mean, not that those are hard if you really want them, but since I can't exactly solo a heroic raid, I'll just keep missing out on them. I play the game like twice a week tops and my work schedule is all over the place, so I'd need a guild that's willing to put up with that and just spontaneously decides to raid whenever I just happen to have time off to be able to do the raids in a non-LFR scenario.

[meheez]

Its pretty sad playing games for gear anyway.

For me, retail has no epicness, in the way classic+ had. No grand objectives to beat. Too many filler systems.

[lukkoth]

An exceptional number of people took the bait on this thread, jeez lol

[Powerogue]

I mean you could go play RuneScape if you want an MMO that doesn't reset your progress ever. That has its own share of problems.

Technically your progress in all video games is "worthless". In Legion, I grinded because I wanted the Ahead of the Curve mount, special artifact appearances, and the Mage Tower challenge completed. Generally things I couldn't just go back and do later.

Hasn't been as much of that available this expansion, putting me kind of back in your position.

[ro9ue]

I wonder which items that were? And not just on one occasion? But maybe that was for people who did regularely clear Naxx 40, had a legendary back then etc. I was quite shocked that when TBCs greens were revealed that they invalidated all my BWL gear. And I called the sources a lie.

"Hahaha...only BWL, you noob" - I hear you say....but that is my point. How many are out there raiding mythic to an extend that their gear really can last such a long long time in a new x-pac (...and I did use some gear from Legion up to lv 115 or so)

On the other hand: Here is the decision that you need to make. Do you like the concept to being set with your gear or do you find it more exciting to get new gear that appears to make you more powerful again.

100% gurantee: If all of your gear (even if it is 50%) of your gear from previous patch or x-pac lasts almost to the max level of next x-pac, we would have a thread how fucked up gearing (still) is.

Currently the "gear inflation" is ofc also a (IMHO) a result of so many difficulties, scaling dungeons and..wait for it: People asking to be able to catch somewhat quickly up to their friends after they took a break from the game. I guess Blizzard listened to the wrong people?

I was referring to MMOs in general. WoW crunched their usefulness over time. In older MMOs like EQ you could get an epic weapon and use it for the next 3 expansions.

In WoW early on it at least was expansion resets, now it's almost patch to patch. I think it's because we're just getting showered with gear. Say Vanilla WoW, you might be using Maraudon legs into MC and BWL until you got a replacement, and there weren't as many options. But that made those items more meaningful. I'd rather have items I can remember by name and aim for for a long period of time. And eventually feel like I've completed a BIS for a while.

[munkeyinorbit]

They were never this bad. You have gear now becoming worthless in a patch. You used to be able to use some items deep into the next expansion.

Tell me something that wasn't happening since WotLK. Every patch gear was obsolete. At least now you have multiple sources of gear. I know because I actually played the game back then.

[Nak88]

That's why I am not grinding at all, just a few casual M+, normal raiding (HC later) on weekends and that's it, back to Classic.

[Qnubi]

It's true WoW and all the MMOs that are based on WoW formula are literally based on gear resets, that includes EverQuest, which WoW is based on.

But all the MMOs that DON'T follow WoW have persistent rewards. Some examples: Eve online, all the skills you accumulated are still worth the same and no expansion truly invalidated anything you accomplished. World of Tanks also does not take away your tanks you unlocked through grinding. That E-100 tank is still top tier (T10). Even this new MMO I started playing called "TemTem" will not follow WoW formula, the creatures I catch and level up to max level will remain useful, they will simply add MORE variety, aka HORIZONTAL progression. And that's the crux of WoW, it is based on vertical progression, whereas my examples (EvE, TemTem, World of Tanks) are based on horizontal progression. Yes, balance and buffs/nerfs happen but your max rank/level/creature will always be in the "endgame". WoW and many MMO that copy this lack horizontal progression. They feel so meaningless to me once you experience games that actually reward you for your time spent and not take it away every 1-2 years.

[quras]

Am I grinding for hours just to increase my dps for a single patch, to play dance dance revolution in a raid while pressing a few buttons on my bars, just to do it all again next patch?

It just seems so pointless. It's like cookie clicker, just some pointless numbers. At least in cookie clicker they aren't reset every few months.

When you get to that point thats how you know it's time to "pause" the game and stop paying as well as playing. Wait for that reset to happen. Should wow interest you then, jump back in.

If not, find another game till wow does interest you again.

[saidolol]

Am I grinding for hours just to increase my dps for a single patch, to play dance dance revolution in a raid while pressing a few buttons on my bars, just to do it all again next patch?

It just seems so pointless. It's like cookie clicker, just some pointless numbers. At least in cookie clicker they aren't reset every few months.

sad to say, this game and genre is not for you, try minesweeper or something that fits.

[Akta]

Nah this is new.

Back in the good days, epic gear meant something and lasted. Even when new raids were released, particularly powerful items would still be best and worth persuing.

You mean the trinkets from eternal palace that are still bis for Ny'alotha?

[cparle87]

Vanilla is realistically the only time where the game effectively didn't reset for two years.

Psst, vanilla lasted 2 years and Naxx raiders replaced their T3 with Hellfire Peninsula quest greens.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Wtf... I have been in the game non stop one way or another for 11 years, and I remember it always being the same.

My gameplay during 8.2 hasnt been "invalidated" by new content. Catchup gear is for my alts, my main still very much benefits from the gear I got playing, not grinding, and raiding EP...

This sounds like the usual ill conceived attempt to hate on the game rather than moving on when you stop having fun on a personal level, really. Same old same old.

"But other MMOs do it differently/better..." So play those then...? Jesus, I tried Burger King once, declared "Max does it better" and never gave money to BK again...

[Kiri]

It's true WoW and all the MMOs that are based on WoW formula are literally based on gear resets, that includes EverQuest, which WoW is based on.

But all the MMOs that DON'T follow WoW have persistent rewards. Some examples: Eve online, all the skills you accumulated are still worth the same and no expansion truly invalidated anything you accomplished. World of Tanks also does not take away your tanks you unlocked through grinding. That E-100 tank is still top tier (T10). Even this new MMO I started playing called "TemTem" will not follow WoW formula, the creatures I catch and level up to max level will remain useful, they will simply add MORE variety, aka HORIZONTAL progression. And that's the crux of WoW, it is based on vertical progression, whereas my examples (EvE, TemTem, World of Tanks) are based on horizontal progression. Yes, balance and buffs/nerfs happen but your max rank/level/creature will always be in the "endgame". WoW and many MMO that copy this lack horizontal progression. They feel so meaningless to me once you experience games that actually reward you for your time spent and not take it away every 1-2 years.

It's important to note that the latter part of that is also highly subjective as well. Sure, vertical progression is much easier to set up and balance, but that isn't the only reason why the formula is so widespread.

Vertical progression can make your progress feel much more tangible. An increase in variety or cosmetic rewards (looking at GW2 here) can be rewarding, sure, but a lot of people can reach a point where they don't necessarily feel like they truly progressed at all. At some point you they will have unlocked enough tanks that unlocking a new one doesn't feel like it made them more powerful, that sort of thing. And that can be as off-putting as gear resets are to others. If you focus on truly horizontal progression, you give up the ability to effectively escalate the game and the threats therein. That's why usually there is at least a slight pvp bend in these sorts of games - as they are closer to mobas than traditional RPGs at that point. But if you want to keep the focus on the PVE, you often need that sense of escalation. Especially when you have a new expansion. Those new lands need to feel more dangerous, stronger than the old ones. It's the RPG fantasy to many, tbh. Become stronger, tackle stronger foes. It is really hard to facilitate that without vertical progression by definition. But this specific fantasy is truly rewarding to a lot of people, even if it necessitates the loss of gear permanence.

[Tojara]

Eh, even in TBC some items lasted a few tiers. The crafted stuff for shadow priests and mages lasted awhile, in addition to fringe trinkets like DST.

I don't think Illidan loot and tier from BT/Hyjal necessarily count.

[Nnyco]

Was there a moral obligation to help as many people as possible to clear naxx? Did the wow community of that time owe it to them? Does it matter if players dont clear stuff they are incapable of clearing?

Your argument doesnt make any sense but it certainly proves what I said about entitlement.

If content is not seen by the playerbase, then whats the point to add said content to begin with.