N'zoth and Ny'alotha

[Ophenia]

Heya guys,

I'm just here looking for... well, information, if you have any. I've always loved all that Shadow/Void/Old Gods stuff, but I haven't played for most of BfA, so I've probably missed a lot of stuff, only having to rely on cinematics here and there, and wowhead recaps and such.

But I think I'm missing a whole chunk about this Ny'alotha thing.

I get that Ny'alotha, the Sleeping City, is N'zoth's domain. It has been relegated to a pocket dimension, similar to the Emerald Dream/Nightmare, which can only impact our reality through... stuff ?
But I don't get at all how events connect. We're freeing N'zoth from his prison during Eternal Palace Showdown, thanks to the Heart's power, and then, ShadowN'zoth just... *poofs* out of nowhere and goes back to Ny'alotha.
I assume Ny'alotha is a reality which only exists within N'zoth's mind, that would explain why it collapses entirely when we focus the Re-Origination Device between his 2 20 billions eyes.

Hence
- How was N'zoth physically imprisoned when he doesn't live in our reality, to begin with ?
- If his influence as a "shadowthing" we see in EP cinematic is that limited that he needs to go back to Ny'alotha, why (and how) even imprison him at all, if that doesn't even blocks his Whispers ?
- As far as I understood the Assaults, he invades through Portals right ? Is N'zoth the only thing capable of opening portals from Ny'alotha to our world ? He didn't have any lieutenant able to do that in Ny'alotha for him, during his 10k years of imprisonment ? Did the Titan Facility maintaining his prison also inhibited Ny'alotha as a whole ? In such case, why the Titan Facilities for Yogg and N'zoth didn't inhibit the Emerald Nightmare as well ?
- Why tf did Void Lord send Old Gods physically on Azeroth to corrupt her... Except N'zoth which was sent in another reality just for the lulz of controlling people here and there, achieving nothing regarding his "main goal" ? He brought chaos (to some degree...) on Azeroth but at no point he was able to, neither did he tried to, reach Azeroth to corrupt her, as is supposed to be the only reason for his existence.
- How are we physically going to Ny'alotha (aka where/what is the raid entrance) ?


Honestly I'm struggling to understand this whole concept of pocket realities which are thrown every now and then in WoW lore... I'm kinda afraid they created this excuse because they couldn't find any reason for N'zoth to not crush us with his mountain-sized tentacles as soon as he's freed, but still, I'm hoping there is something more that I missed (in quests, assaults broadcast texts or in Ny'alotha itself).

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The concept of Ny'alotha had changed frequently up to this point and it was not directly described as something specific.


At one point it was being indirectly described as a just a location - probably somewhere in Azeroth. Other references implied it to maybe be underneath the ocean.


Hell at some points people were speculating that it was the actual location of N'Zoth effectively making it his prison.


When Blizzard announced 8.3 they began describing Ny'alotha as a realm "behind a thin veil" and such, so that's probably when they started going with the pocket dimension narrative? BUT during the questing (and I also think some Blizzard developer tweets) that Ny'alotha is just a "vision of what's to come" but at the same time a very real place? I suppose that makes sense about Ny'alotha is just "possible future" if left unchecked.


I think Blizzard has tried too hard keeping things vague in the past and when it's time to fully unveil their concept, they were stuck between too many explanations. Pocket realities in general are kind of garbled at the moment in the WoW universe. I think Blizzard intends for its players to not think too much into it and and suspend your disbelief to such an extent you don't question the semantics of their story choices and explanations.


As to your questions:


- N'Zoth was imprisoned in physical Azeroth. He was freed then "retreated" to Ny'alotha which is now established as not apart of physical Azeroth but it's own reality which also functions as an alternative dimension? Am I to believe that N'Zoth is so powerful when he is freed that he can just *think* about something and will it into reality? Or will it into existence? Weird.


- I think the shadow tendrils we saw in the 8.2 cinematic was just an extent of his power, or that is how I would explain lore wise. The ending cinematic where is freed, it would have been cooler to see an actual tentacle but I suppose N'Zoth's actual tentacles would be too massive to grab Azshara like that. So perhaps it was just him using his Old God power to manifest a shadow tendril to spirit her away


- Not sure how to answer that.


This just my understanding of everything.


At the end of the day Blizzard does really want us question so much of it. I feel like when they are crunched for time and need to make story decisions and explanations they choose something and go, "yeah, that makes sense" when it only does to them since they know everything else in advanced. We are just to take it for what it is not knowing the next part.


So in conclusion, Ny'alotha is weird.

[Ophenia]

So in conclusion, Ny'alotha is weird.

Think we got to the same conclusion.
Thanks for your point of view, that's appreciated. The shadow tentacle is still foggy to me, if he can really do such thing he should have no problem getting rid of us by throwing shadowy tentacles everywhere.

It seems like, as you said, Blizz just threw something that was cool (tentacles !!!! tentacles coming from another dimension !!! next thing you know is tentacles travelling back in time) without thinking too much about it, expecting we the players would do the same. It sounds like they've tried to explain something that wasn't meant to be explained in the first place (lovecraftian figures have always been that mysterious thing you know nothing about, and that you couldn't even grasp the basic concepts if someone tried to explain that to you, due to their chaotic/mystic nature), and tangled themselves miserably trying to put all that shit under the blanket with the pocket reality/dimension thing.

[Destinas]

Ny'alotha is, basically, the realm of the Black Empire (the Old Gods, and their minions). It doesn't just belong to N'Zoth, nor is it only in his mind - it's just that he's the only one left to make use of it (and he's the only fully released Old God). It's a dimension connected to reality, but separated - think the Emerald Dream and Shadowlands.

It's something like an extension of the Void, where the Old Gods were made by the Void Lords. There are lots of other realms connected to the Old Gods (and some even have their own pocket dimensions) like Realm of Y'Shaarj, Dread Expanse, Twilight Realm, etc. They could be connected to Ny'alotha, as well.

In the end, we know that Ny'alotha is connected to more than just N'Zoth because of the other Old Gods and their minions.
Y'Shaarj/Xal'atoh say:

You will rest in Ny'alotha.

Il'gynoth says:

N'Zoth... I journey... to Ny'alotha...

And we do eventually see it there.

Xal'atath says:

Do not be impressed by tall icons of the titans which stand here. The towers of sacrifice in Ny'alotha dwarf these pathetic temples.
This city of elves pales in comparison to the sleeping city...

Yogg-Saron talked about Ny'alotha first, in Cataclysm, through the puzzle box:

In the land of Ny'alotha there is only sleep...
In the sleeping city of Ny'alotha walk only mad things.
Ny'alotha is a city of old, terrible, unnumbered crimes...

So, it's a realm of the Old Gods, which has always been around, we just didn't see it. N'Zoth was fully released from his prison on Azeroth, thus allowing him to rip the thin veil between reality and Ny'alotha. It's likely a plan that the other Old Gods had as well, but they were all imprisoned for a long time - it may also connect to the Hour of Twilight by extension.

[Soon-TM]

To me, the whole story of 8.3 is "a single Legion across many universes" levels of stupid. And here I was thinking that the Sadfang & Sylvie !@#$show was impossible to top.

[The5thVegetable]

In the same way that the Emerald Dream exists as the titans' blueprint for Azeroth, you could say that Ny'alotha is the Old Gods' blueprint for azeroth. It's a place that's kind of beyond reality that nontheless physically exists- and much like the emerald dream, it's possible to physically enter it.

And, from what I could gather, N'zoth wanted to use the Halls of Origination to Re-Originate Azeroth, using Ny'alotha as the blueprint- in the same way that a standard Re-Origination is supposed to use the Emerald Dream as a blueprint. Of course, he's still a god, so it's not at all surprising that he's able to shove as much Ny'alotha into reality as he can even without the Re-Origination Device. The idea is basically that these realms can be copy-pasted over Azeroth, replacing everything on it with what exists in that alternate reality. Again, that's what the Emerald Dream is for, and the Re-Origination device facilitates this process. That's why we use it to kill him- it's just that powerful a tool.

[Ophenia]

So, it's a realm of the Old Gods, which has always been around, we just didn't see it. N'Zoth was fully released from his prison on Azeroth, thus allowing him to rip the thin veil between reality and Ny'alotha. It's likely a plan that the other Old Gods had as well, but they were all imprisoned for a long time - it may also connect to the Hour of Twilight by extension.

Got it, thanks.
If that's "just" a plane, connected to ours or not, why would Re-Originating N'zoth "erase" Ny'alotha ? Well I'm not even sure it is to be honest, the N'zoth cinematic show buildings being destroyed (which could be linked to N'zoth), but also the whole thing is fading. Is that supposed to be the Veil between Ny'alotha and Azeroth that is closing ?

Because if Ny'alotha is "just" a plane like a testing ground for the Void Lord to throw Old Gods on, it has no reason to disappear or explode or whatever upon N'zoth's death.

I guess with what you said, Yogg, Y'shaarj and C'thun have already broken the veil between the dimensions and came to Azeroth, only leaving N'zoth there. I still don't know how N'zoth can be both in our dimension (to be physically trapped in a Titan facility) and in Ny'alotha.

[Varodoc]

Maybe he wasn't physically imprisoned in the ocean depths. Maybe it was just his soul that was imprisoned there. Notice how N'Zoth never actually appeared in flesh in 8.2, he always looked like a ghost or a shadow presence. Then, in 8.3, it's the opposite, his body is made of actual flesh, his tentacles are real and are not just made of pure darkness. So when Azshara shattered the prison, N'Zoth's soul was able to return to Ny'alotha and latch onto his body once more.

[Aucald]

I think the idea of Ny'alotha and by extension the Black Empire as a parasitic and insurgent idea manifesting by superimposing itself on Azeroth is an interesting development from a narrative standpoint, although I don't think it gets conveyed really well in the game. That the reason we don't see any ruins of the Black Empire today is because the Ordering imposed by the Titans expunged it totally from reality, leaving places like Ny'alotha and C'Tanth as effective memories of another time and place, exiled from reality, which N'Zoth was trying to being back a piece at a time by overwriting Azeroth itself.

[Destinas]

Got it, thanks.
If that's "just" a plane, connected to ours or not, why would Re-Originating N'zoth "erase" Ny'alotha ? Well I'm not even sure it is to be honest, the N'zoth cinematic show buildings being destroyed (which could be linked to N'zoth), but also the whole thing is fading. Is that supposed to be the Veil between Ny'alotha and Azeroth that is closing ?

Because if Ny'alotha is "just" a plane like a testing ground for the Void Lord to throw Old Gods on, it has no reason to disappear or explode or whatever upon N'zoth's death.

I guess with what you said, Yogg, Y'shaarj and C'thun have already broken the veil between the dimensions and came to Azeroth, only leaving N'zoth there. I still don't know how N'zoth can be both in our dimension (to be physically trapped in a Titan facility) and in Ny'alotha.

I think you're misunderstanding me a bit here. I probably didn't explain things well. It's not "just" a regular ol' plane of existence like we normally see. Anything outside reality is meant to be otherworldly, where rules don't apply the same. N'Zoth can exist in both realms at the same time - like Ysera and Xavius did with the Dream/Nightmare and reality, like Y'Shaarj did with his realm and reality, and many other beings and planes.

The Old Gods were made in the Void, by the Void Lords. The Old Gods were thrown physically from the Void, through the Great Dark Beyond and Twisting Nether (outer space) to several different planets (in order to find a World-Soul on a planet). Ny'alotha wasn't where the Void Lords threw Old Gods. It's just a realm either made for the Old Gods, or made by the Old Gods.

There are also other Old Gods than the ones we have seen on Azeroth - Sargeras killed some that were corrupting a World-Soul. The Arakkoa tried to summon one on Outland. We see other Old God-infested worlds in Legion, as well. We have no idea if they can go to/use Ny'alotha or not, since we've only ever truly "met" the Azerothian Old Gods.

As far as the cinematic, and the "destruction" of Ny'alotha - read this interview.

Q: What happens if a creature dies in Ny’alotha, including N’Zoth? Does this change anything, compared to the battles against Yogg-Saron and C’Thun?

A: Yes, certainly. Ny’alotha is not even an imaginary location — it’s real, it’s an alternate reality in some ways that is almost merging with ours if we don’t prevent it.
So, when we go in there and we are defeating minions of the Old Gods, then it’s fair to assume and expect that we are destroying them pretty heavily. If we are victorious against N’Zoth, that should be the last that we hear from him — but we’ll see!
Certainly, if we perish ourselves, then that’s permanent as well. The stakes are very high, and it’s an exciting adventure we can’t wait for players to experience.

Q: So, if we can definitively kill an Old God, what impact would this have on the world? For example, would their tendrils still corrupt the land, if they are dead?

A: I think that’s a thing that remains to be seen. Certainly, the direct manifestations of N’Zoth’s power would presumably shrivel and wither away.
Of course, given the repeatable nature of content, we want to make sure you still have things to do, so even after you’ve beaten N’Zoth in the raid you’ll still be able to go out and do your Horrific Visions and continue to play the rest of the game!
But in terms of canon, in terms of how the storyline moves on, I think that corrupting power will no longer be present.
As with all things in Azeroth and the Warcraft universe, there are these forces in balance with each other — opposing forces, in the Old Gods and the Titans on the planet for a long time, and much more.
When you remove one of these great powers from the picture, it may throw some other things out of balance, so the consequences of that will be something we may explore farther down the line with the future of World of Warcraft.

Chances are, we simply saw N'Zoth's idea of the Black Empire destroyed, and the connection to Azeroth severed. However, it's not fully explained. Ny'alotha could be around in the future. The Old Gods could show up again, too, whenever the story demands it. After all:
"They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."

[Aucald]

Got it, thanks.
If that's "just" a plane, connected to ours or not, why would Re-Originating N'zoth "erase" Ny'alotha ? Well I'm not even sure it is to be honest, the N'zoth cinematic show buildings being destroyed (which could be linked to N'zoth), but also the whole thing is fading. Is that supposed to be the Veil between Ny'alotha and Azeroth that is closing ?

Because if Ny'alotha is "just" a plane like a testing ground for the Void Lord to throw Old Gods on, it has no reason to disappear or explode or whatever upon N'zoth's death.

I guess with what you said, Yogg, Y'shaarj and C'thun have already broken the veil between the dimensions and came to Azeroth, only leaving N'zoth there. I still don't know how N'zoth can be both in our dimension (to be physically trapped in a Titan facility) and in Ny'alotha.

Ny'alotha is being manifested by N'Zoth's will, and we use the reconfigured Reorigination pulse to effectively "erase" N'Zoth from his own version of existence, effectively removing the engine that is terraforming Azeroth into Ny'alotha. This causes the forward momentum of Ny'alotha to falter, and Azeroth's own reality (the version created by the Titans and the one we live in) to reassert itself, like a healthy immune system ejecting a parasitic invasion. The manifestations of Ny'alotha fail and fade from our reality, and returns things more or less to normal.

[Ophenia]

@Aucald @Destinas @The5thVegetable @Tenebra the War Criminal

Thanks guys, that's a lot more clear now.
Sorry for the stupid questions, that's hard to follow-up when the story is exploded between so many formats (quests, raid, cutscenes, cinematics, interviews, books and ofc, retcons).

[Aucald]

@Aucald @Destinas @The5thVegetable @Tenebra the War Criminal

Thanks guys, that's a lot more clear now.
Sorry for the stupid questions, that's hard to follow-up when the story is exploded between so many formats (quests, raid, cutscenes, cinematics, interviews, books and ofc, retcons).

Glad to be of service. It is a pretty weird concept, and as I said before I don't really feel they relate it all that well in-game. It was something that definitely could've served with more exposition and exploration as a concept, IMO.

[Super Dickmann]

The way I understand it is that Ny'alotha is a manifestation of N'zoth's will - it's an alternate reality wherein his portion of the Black Empire is an extant thing. Since he's the one sustaining it, without him it's destroyed. Compare and contrast things like the Sha of Fear's ocean realm or Y'shaarj's visions of Stormwind and the Pandaria temples, which would be their equivalent. Ny'alotha is also referred to as a sunken city, suggesting it was actually a real place. Both N'zoth and the Black Empire were physical things, but since they were destroyed (maybe in the Scouring referenced), the new version is just a superimposition upon reality, sustained by N'zoth's power. He brings it about passively over time, in things like the invasions, but he also tries to accelerate it with things like the Forge of Origination blueprint plan and in the raid going into the Chamber of the Heart to corrupt Azeroth and thus achieve the transformation instantaneously as well as presumably to take over Azeroth herself. The invasions aren't portals in the classical sense, it's just places where N'zoth overlays his own reality and realm (Ny'alotha) over Azeroth, allowing a portion of his forces to go through.

N'zoth was however definitely a physical being, as we can see in Warbringers, until at least 8.2. Crucible was a part of N'zoth we went into and his eyes and body are seen when he transforms Azshara. I don't think the absence of his physical body in the 8.2 cutscene can be read into more than they just hadn't finished making the relevant assets yet and also that giant tentacles would be less able to nab Azshara. When he's freed, the whole of him is freed, unlike say Yogg or C'thun being heads peeking out of holes, and then one of two things happen, it's kind of vague:

1. He moves entirely into Ny'alotha with his real form, hence why we fight him there. He essentially inhabits his own mind and when we fry him with the laser, the mental construct that is Ny'alotha is destroyed and Azeroth reverts to normal, stopping the dimensional overlay. Basically, what @Aucald said.

2. He exists simultaneously in the depths of the sea (he's just so far down that we only see his eye like in the 8.2) cinematic and in Ny'alotha. When we zap him, there's still a giant body somewhere down there, but the main thing is that we destroy his brain and without an old god to sustain Ny'alotha it vanishes. Basically, what @Destinas said. I'm leaning towards this because the N'zoth - depths connection, contrary to what other posters say does remain in 8.3, with things like sea priests summoning things in the Uldum vision, k'thir drowning you and N'zoth still being referred to as the God of the Deep or the Drowned God.

Ny'alotha is a real place, but it's real only for as long as there's an Old God to sustain it. Hence why Il'gynoth, a spawn of N'zoth, could be sent back there when we kill him in the Nightmare, but why the whole thing goes down when N'zoth dies. It's honestly fairly interesting, but complicated and abstract, as well as altogether wasted what with only being dealt with in a patch.

[The5thVegetable]

@Aucald @Destinas @The5thVegetable @Tenebra the War Criminal

Thanks guys, that's a lot more clear now.
Sorry for the stupid questions, that's hard to follow-up when the story is exploded between so many formats (quests, raid, cutscenes, cinematics, interviews, books and ofc, retcons).

There is no such thing as a stupid question, my dude! We all need to learn somehow.

If you ever want to take a deeper look into the lore yourself, I'd recommend checking out Wowpedia. It generally has all the info you'd want on any given topic!