Shadowlands, Blizz's Fallout 76?

[Raisei]

Hello! with all of the recent discourse surrounding the craven business practices that Blizz have adopted ie. thousands of players being unable to play the unfinished 8.3, the panning of BFA and WC3 etc.
Is it safe to say that Shadowlands can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory Blizz has found itself on, being the final nail in the coffin, the same way Fallout 76 confirmed the newfound cynicism toward Bethesda?

By now I wonder what EA and the other companies are paying you thread makers to go on and on and on. You are deliberatetly dramatising and falsifying so there must be a reason and usually people at least have the decency to get paid for this level of drama lamaing.

8.3. unfinished? Where do you get that from? You mean because it had a few bugs? Good gods, can you show me any game these days that does not ship with some bugs? Didn't. Think. So.
Blizzard fixed those bugs in mere days, sometimes in hours. That is what a good company does.

As a counter example: I went to play the newer expansions in SWTOR a few month ago. There was a crippling bug that was introduced with new level scaling things, that made it impossible to get past a boss in one of the story chapters (fight Vehicle vs. Vehicle with yours being scaled wrong and thus taking a shitton of damage, before you could scratch the boss). The community manager reacted and said the fix would be comming with the next maintenance. A WEEK LATER.
The story (which is pretty much the only thing left that SWTOR has) could not be finished for A WEEK. They dropped a patch with a game breaking bug and then took a week off while the players were stuck.

Compare that to the amount of hotfixes we got after 8.3. dropped and you start to realize that Blizzard is by far the best company with an MMO out there.

These Doom and Gloom thread are ridiculous, each and every one of them. If you do not want to play WoW anymore go away, no one is stopping you, but stop these over the top drama threads.

That's about as much sense as I would expect from BfA, Shadowlands enthusiast. Good for you!

OT: some people keep parroting about 'waiting and seeing the game', but I think it is absurd, considering blizzcon reveal should've gotten everyone on the hype train by showing the absolute best this expansion would be.

The problem is, nothing that they have shown is exciting enough, and more and more people see it.

So people that are not jumping on this anti-hype train that has been going for month and month are "cultists" because they do not judge a product waaaaaay before it is even in ALPHA? Right...

It's funny how you try to turn the image of the Doomsayer with a "The End is Nigh"-sign around, but it just does not work. Your "cultists" are the normal people trying to walk past the crazy Doomsayers, trying not to give them any attention, not the other way around.

My only question is this: If it is all sooooo horrible and nothing will change, why are you still here? Go away. Spread drama over another game that actually deserves it.

[VinceVega]

Hello! with all of the recent discourse surrounding the craven business practices that Blizz have adopted ie. thousands of players being unable to play the unfinished 8.3, the panning of BFA and WC3 etc.
Is it safe to say that Shadowlands can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory Blizz has found itself on, being the final nail in the coffin, the same way Fallout 76 confirmed the newfound cynicism toward Bethesda?

Stop making these Clearvoyance threads! At least wait for the beta.
The only thing you accomplish ist making poeple HATE a game they know nothing about. And they will continue to hate it even if it turns out to be good because their pride does not allow it.

Hating something for the sake of hate is not better than what blizz did with WC3... also many poeple liked BFA. Stop thinking the forums are a godd example of the playerbase.,

[Micronetic]

I mean, his list is wrong, but what about cata was really bad except the last patch?

This comment is wrong not the list, imagine every human has a different taste, I liked Cata (for you it's bad), I loved MoP in the list it was bad, I hate BfA but in the list it was good. You see the pattern? Those threads are just stupid because everybody likes different things.

[LordVargK]

I'm not that guy, but Cata started high and ended...well pretty low. If there's one word I could have summed it up to describe that patch, it would be boring. If you didn't raid or PvP, there was nothing to do outside of the first week or two. Not a god damn thing. As for the raid itself, most of the bosses and their mechanics I liked for the most part, but that's where that train ended for me. I had griefs with Dragon Soul that I never forgave Blizzard for with my absolute top one being that there were no new models for anything in that entire raid. And the raid environment itself? Dragonblight lol. Then the Eye of Eternity. And and... are you ready for this? an alliance gunship. Spine of Deathwing was the only thing new about that raid, and luckily for them, it was cool (also balls hard on heroic). But then we go to the Maelstrom (which wasn't new) for one of the worst fights I've ever had the displeasure of playing.

It ended on such a sour note for me that I consider Cata one of the worst expansions just because of the last patch alone, and that is saying a LOT for me. I forgave them reducing the amount of bosses in Firelands because I liked that raid a lot. But I could not forgive them for Dragon Soul. Hell, one of the 5 mans that came with the patch had a new environment and zone for god sakes. But the raid didn't, and that is unforgivable to me. Awful everything in that patch.

Okay, but that kinda begs the question: If you don't PvP or Raid, why did you even play WoW at that point? It's not like TBC or WotLK were any different in that regard... And sure, the last patch is the most remembered patch of most expansions and 4.3 was kinda lame and lazy, but objectiely speaking it is not fair to rate Cata based on 4.3 alone.

Everything BUT the last patch was bad. Ideas were good (world revamp/dungeon choices/ect) - implementation/gameplay was horrific! >_<

The last patch was the opposite in my book - the implementation/gameplay was great, but the ideas/design was bad. Except Darkmoon Isle - that will always be one of the most brilliant ideas ever! ^_^

Nice to see that you can count on the unity of the community

But in all seriousness: What was bad about the start of Cata? I mean, dungeons were great at the start, raids were decent (not that good but also not that bad), sure, some of the world revamps didn't quite hit the mark, but that is not really an endgame problem. I can't comment on PvP as I play only PvE, but I remember that my guildmates were more active in PvP then than they are now. Let me ask you as well: What made WotLK better than Cata?

This comment is wrong not the list, imagine every human has a different taste, I liked Cata (for you it's bad), I loved MoP in the list it was bad, I hate BfA but in the list it was good. You see the pattern? Those threads are just stupid because everybody likes different things.

I never said Cata was bad. And I also think that the one who posted this list was only trying to provoke people. Every taste is different and there is no clear good or bad. But there are majority opinions, so you can say that generally an expansion can be considered mostly good or bad. I for myself rate an expansion based on the amount I've played them, because that's a direct indication of how much fun I have had.

[Mongler]

Okay, but that kinda begs the question: If you don't PvP or Raid, why did you even play WoW at that point? It's not like TBC or WotLK were any different in that regard... And sure, the last patch is the most remembered patch of most expansions and 4.3 was kinda lame and lazy, but objectiely speaking it is not fair to rate Cata based on 4.3 alone.

Your first point, I don't know because its largely what I do when I'm active in WoW (well actually primarily M+ now), but if we're going by what Blizzard has stated over the years in that not a lot of people raid (and even fewer do higher tiers of raiding), then there has to be something else to occupy the millions that supposedly still play the game. Pet battles? Transmog runs? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Your guess is as good as mine

And I agree with it not being fair to judge it on DS alone but at the same time - it is what it is. I liked Cata and I had good times with friends in it, but I'm just unable to shake how bad a taste the ending left with me. It just darkened my whole viewing of Cataclysm. Yes, it isn't fair to judge it by that patch. It's also not fair to us players that we got what we ended up getting at the same time. They didn't stick the landing, and that's pretty important in my eyes

[Phurox]

I love the BfA. If Shadowland will continue this trajectory, it would be awesome. Unfortunately I doubt about it, as WoW expansions are good-bad-good-bad (TBC good, WotLK bad, Cata good, Panda bad, Draenor good, Legion bad, BfA good, so SL must be bad).

What the hell. WotLK bad, CATA GOOD?

Tbc - good
WotLK - good
Cata - bad
MoP - bad
Draenor - bad
Legion - good
BFA - good (imo, it's basically Legion without the Legion lore)

Your list has flaws

[Stormwolf64]

What the hell. WotLK bad, CATA GOOD?

Tbc - good
WotLK - good
Cata - bad
MoP - bad
Draenor - bad
Legion - good
BFA - good (imo, it's basically Legion without the Legion lore)

Your list has flaws

You dont qualify judging peoples lists when you say bfa is good. Jeez

[Mojo03]

I think it'll probably be better than it looks.

I think part of why it was so underwhelming is they are being really cautious about not talking or showing stuff that isn't 100% concrete because people like being drama queens when things get cut or changed.

[babyback]

You dont qualify judging peoples lists when you say bfa is good. Jeez

Define what’s good. I still enjoy playing BfA. So in my world it is good.

[LordVargK]

And I agree with it not being fair to judge it on DS alone but at the same time - it is what it is. I liked Cata and I had good times with friends in it, but I'm just unable to shake how bad a taste the ending left with me. It just darkened my whole viewing of Cataclysm. Yes, it isn't fair to judge it by that patch. It's also not fair to us players that we got what we ended up getting at the same time. They didn't stick the landing, and that's pretty important in my eyes

At that time I raided pretty casually. And DS never really bothered my all that much. I actually like, that raids use places that are existant on the real world map. Also the mechanics of the bossfights were somewhat interesting.
In my opinion most addons come down to story. It's not apparent, but most addons with a boring/crazy story were not well recieved. Could be correlation (less effort overall meant worse expansion as well as worse story), but I would fit overall. WotLK is praised and had the LK story. Cata is frowned upon and the DW story is considered pretty bad (also green jesus memes). MoP's story is often mentioned as the best story of WoW and MoP regularly wins the "best expansion" poll here. WoD? More memes and hated expansion. Legion? Pretty well recieved story, pretty well recieved overall. BfA? Story is all over the place, as is the expansion itself.
Again, could be correlation, but maybe the RPG part in MMORPG is not that unimportant after all.

[The Emperor]

By now I wonder what EA and the other companies are paying you thread makers to go on and on and on. You are deliberatetly dramatising and falsifying so there must be a reason and usually people at least have the decency to get paid for this level of drama lamaing.

8.3. unfinished? Where do you get that from? You mean because it had a few bugs? Good gods, can you show me any game these days that does not ship with some bugs? Didn't. Think. So.
Blizzard fixed those bugs in mere days, sometimes in hours. That is what a good company does.

As a counter example: I went to play the newer expansions in SWTOR a few month ago. There was a crippling bug that was introduced with new level scaling things, that made it impossible to get past a boss in one of the story chapters (fight Vehicle vs. Vehicle with yours being scaled wrong and thus taking a shitton of damage, before you could scratch the boss). The community manager reacted and said the fix would be comming with the next maintenance. A WEEK LATER.
The story (which is pretty much the only thing left that SWTOR has) could not be finished for A WEEK. They dropped a patch with a game breaking bug and then took a week off while the players were stuck.

Compare that to the amount of hotfixes we got after 8.3. dropped and you start to realize that Blizzard is by far the best company with an MMO out there.

These Doom and Gloom thread are ridiculous, each and every one of them. If you do not want to play WoW anymore go away, no one is stopping you, but stop these over the top drama threads.



So people that are not jumping on this anti-hype train that has been going for month and month are "cultists" because they do not judge a product waaaaaay before it is even in ALPHA? Right...

It's funny how you try to turn the image of the Doomsayer with a "The End is Nigh"-sign around, but it just does not work. Your "cultists" are the normal people trying to walk past the crazy Doomsayers, trying not to give them any attention, not the other way around.

My only question is this: If it is all sooooo horrible and nothing will change, why are you still here? Go away. Spread drama over another game that actually deserves it.

No, I will spread drama here to make sure more and more people see Shadowlands for what it is and then it will be a huge failure for Blizzard, which will hopefully make them reconsider a couple of things. And I do it because in the past politely giving Blizzard feedback had meager effect on design choices they made.

The funny part is that I know very well where the people are going with their "wait and see" attitude. They will keep being blind to the horrible truth up until the very last patch of the expansion and even then some of them would be so obtuse they would fail to recognize the massive failure that Blizzard did.

There is a grain of sense in waiting for the product, but definitely not for this company with its current leadership. Many cautiously took the "wait and see" approach in Bfa and where did they end up?

The harder Blizzard fails with Shadowlands, the more people become disillusioned with their practices, the more chances there will be, for a better future.

[Raisei]

No, I will spread drama here to make sure more and more people see Shadowlands for what it is and then it will be a huge failure for Blizzard, which will hopefully make them reconsider a couple of things. And I do it because in the past politely giving Blizzard feedback had meager effect on design choices they made.

The point is, YOU DO NOT KNOW Shadowlands for what it is. You have no clue, no one but the Devs do. The game has not even entered an Alpha state. You are trying to convince people of your UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION and ruin Blizzard because of your hunches. You are not making Blizzard reconsider anything because you cannot deliver any constructive criticism without material to critizise.

The funny part is that I know very well where the people are going with their "wait and see" attitude. They will keep being blind to the horrible truth up until the very last patch of the expansion and even then some of them would be so obtuse they would fail to recognize the massive failure that Blizzard did.

N'zoth safe me from this cringe... the HORRIBLE TRUTH.... the MASSIVE FAILURE... you sound exactly like a glossy magazine cover speaking about some starlet's affair with Boris Becker...
On top of that, calling your hunches TRUTH is just plain dishonest. To repeat: YOU DO NOT POSSESS THE TRUTH.

There is a grain of sense in waiting for the product, but definitely not for this company with its current leadership. Many cautiously took the "wait and see" approach in Bfa and where did they end up?

Where? Right here, still playing the game with tens of thousands and apart from this very vocal minority spreading drama in forums they are enjoying it. Of course you will now tell me how that is untrue because it is such a fail and how basically everyone has unsubbed, because just like Shadowlands you simply know these things without needing facts to distract you from it.

And when the company has lost your trust that much, then it can't win anyway. Even if they change everything you will keep hating it, you will find something else you can focus your hate on, maybe it will be the story, the class design. There will definately be something. So why bother?
Go, play SWTOR as your Avatar suggests. Enjoy how Bioware treats loyal costomers these days.

The harder Blizzard fails with Shadowlands, the more people become disillusioned with their practices, the more chances there will be, for a better future.

Uh... no... the harder Shadowlands fails the harder it is for Devs to convince Stockholders to pay for the next expansion, ergo less chances. The only things your claims are thus helping with is shutting the game down. But after reading this, I am quite convinced that is your goal.

[MoanaLisa]

Some will like it. Some won't. There will be pointless forum shouting matches.

Basically it's too early to know. I doubt it will be all that well received. It can be good or bad but if the game stays in the same over-engineered, over-designed rut it's been in for a while that will matter more.

[The Emperor]

The point is, YOU DO NOT KNOW Shadowlands for what it is. You have no clue, no one but the Devs do. The game has not even entered an Alpha state. You are trying to convince people of your UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION and ruin Blizzard because of your hunches. You are not making Blizzard reconsider anything because you cannot deliver any constructive criticism without material to critizise.



N'zoth safe me from this cringe... the HORRIBLE TRUTH.... the MASSIVE FAILURE... you sound exactly like a glossy magazine cover speaking about some starlet's affair with Boris Becker...
On top of that, calling your hunches TRUTH is just plain dishonest. To repeat: YOU DO NOT POSSESS THE TRUTH.



Where? Right here, still playing the game with tens of thousands and apart from this very vocal minority spreading drama in forums they are enjoying it. Of course you will now tell me how that is untrue because it is such a fail and how basically everyone has unsubbed, because just like Shadowlands you simply know these things without needing facts to distract you from it.

And when the company has lost your trust that much, then it can't win anyway. Even if they change everything you will keep hating it, you will find something else you can focus your hate on, maybe it will be the story, the class design. There will definately be something. So why bother?
Go, play SWTOR as your Avatar suggests. Enjoy how Bioware treats loyal costomers these days.



Uh... no... the harder Shadowlands fails the harder it is for Devs to convince Stockholders to pay for the next expansion, ergo less chances. The only things your claims are thus helping with is shutting the game down. But after reading this, I am quite convinced that is your goal.

1. Some people of more than double digit intelligence can safely predict if the expansion is going to be good or bad. Majority said legion was going to be great and guess what, it was. Your argument that I or any one else cant predict a filler expansion falls flat on it's face.

2 and 3. That you 'and your friends' keep playing is not an indication of anything, and it is definitely not something to be proud of. Most generous estimations accord about 2 mil active subscribers to WoW right now, which is less than one fifth of what it was during proud days of WotLK. Again, that you are the minority that stuck with company after several blunders might be something you see as an argument, though the sad truth is that you're a guy who stays on windows vista when win 10 is what people want.

4. Legion was great so no, the company did not lose all of my trust yet, and I am definitely not a proponent of shutting game down.

If Blizzard fails then so be it. It is only about the survival of the fittest. If blizz cant adapt and recognize it's failures and rectify them? Good riddance, for people like you I am sure there will be private servers to reminisce about the past.

[MoanaLisa]

Uh... no... the harder Shadowlands fails the harder it is for Devs to convince Stockholders to pay for the next expansion...

Bad and unrealistic take. What's going on with Candy Crush matters more to ATVI's stockholders than anything to do with WoW. 80% of ATVI's stockholders aren't really individuals anyway. It's institutional investors like pension plans. Stockholders mostly do not know and do not care about World of Warcraft.

[Kynario]

Some will like it. Some won't. There will be pointless forum shouting matches.

Basically it's too early to know. I doubt it will be all that well received. It can be good or bad but if the game stays in the same over-engineered, over-designed rut it's been in for a while that will matter more.

What does over-engineered and over-designed in terms of WoW mean ? Asking out of genuine curiosity. I’ve heard those terms before but never in this context.

[Nevcairiel]

1. Some people of more than double digit intelligence can safely predict if the expansion is going to be good or bad.

If said people are so smart, they would recognize that as of now there is not enough information about Shadowlands to predict anything yet. We have a name, a few screenshots, and very rough concepts - which could be solid, or not. Such things succeed or fail with the implementation - of which we know literally nothing yet.

There is a big difference between your dreaded "wait and see" and actually having *any* information to base an informed opinion on.

Its like saying you could predict if the expansion after Shadowlands is going to be good. Afterall, we have about as much in-depth information about it as we do about Shadowlands.

[The Emperor]

If said people are so smart, they would recognize that as of now there is not enough information about Shadowlands to predict anything yet. We have a name, a few screenshots, and very rough concepts - which could be solid, or not. Such things succeed or fail with the implementation - of which we know literally nothing yet.

There is a big difference between your dreaded "wait and see" and actually having *any* information to base an informed opinion on.

Its like saying you could predict if the expansion after Shadowlands is going to be good. Afterall, we have about as much in-depth information about it as we do about Shadowlands.

So you basically telling me it was impossible to say if legion, or wotlk would be great, judging solely by the reveal trailers and preliminary deep dives? Is that what you are saying? Because it's wrong.

[Azerate]

Yes, everything is falling apart and the game will die tomorrow...not.

[Ton00]

People with stop the doom and gloom everytime yet here we are again no less