Shadowlands, Blizz's Fallout 76?

[Rotted]

I love the BfA. If Shadowland will continue this trajectory, it would be awesome. Unfortunately I doubt about it, as WoW expansions are good-bad-good-bad (TBC good, WotLK bad, Cata good, Panda bad, Draenor good, Legion bad, BfA good, so SL must be bad).

This troll though,

[Zarvel]

more then 1 system.
new leveling systems
covenents
soulbinding
torghast
and legendary crafting.


and nah even wod was no where close to fallout 76, wod was way better then that complete absolute mess.

new leveling systems - how many current players will actually engage with this? Will someone who engages in end-game actively go out of their way to level a new character just because this system change exists?

Covenants - sounds like a rep and currency based talent system - it will be heavily gated - will likely be front heavy and then fall off really quickly after the first few weeks into the expansion (saying all this based on what we saw from the blizzcon floor and what we heard from ion and the devs on the stage)

soulbindings - glorified bodyguards - not really a "system", it's a perk. Not much different from WOD bodyguards, except that these guys can get talent trees and will use powerful abilities like the Nazjatar ones. Looking at you Poen Gillbrack, I see you. This is not a thing to sell an expansion on, it's a minor "feature" that will be semi-relevant.

torghast - horrific visions 2.0 - I'm looking forward to this, but I am cautiously optimistic after what I've seen in horrific visions where the balance is off when running it as rdps/heal vs as a bursty melee or tank. Role-agnostic content should not force you to group up to be optimal. That's failed design. Inb4 you say people are 4-5 chesting it as ranged now - Yes, i know and they're either doing it on bursty classes like Hunters or with the aid of a crutch like Corrupted gear that you will NOT have in shadowlands. They also have not confirmed if soulbinding will be in effect in torghast or not, as that would change both features massively.

legendary crafting - again, not a "feature" to sell an expansion on, it's a gearing perk. You gather x items, you use x items to craft a piece of gear. The acquisition of X items is the real gameplay here, not the crafting itself. Literally takes 10-20 seconds to craft a legendary if legion is anything to go on. And legendaries are not a system to sell an expansion on either, they are expected to exist as pieces of gear in every WoW expansion.

Basically we as a community are grasping at straws to give blizzard some semblance of a chance to prove themselves. There really wasn't much in terms of gameplay systems presented at Blizzcon besides torghast. We already have M+ and Raiding as staples so obviously they do not need to be presented.

I'm really curious about what we're gonna get once shadowlands Beta is out. One thing we know is they don't have enough time to work the classes back into a fun state and add more gameplay systems before the game is due to release at the end of the year. So expect a second coming of Beta for Azeroth, but one that is more bearable because at least this time they're not presenting us with Islands and Warfronts, which they had no clue themselves about how it would work out in end-game and fun/engagement.

[sims4mod]

Nice Post...

[Maljinwo]

Fallout is fun though

[Zequill]

thousands of players being unable to play the unfinished 8.3, the panning of BFA and WC3 etc.

Do you have any source for that? Like any actual player not on a Core2 Windows XP with addon that was never since TBC kind of real player having that bad of an issue?

[Sondrelk]

new leveling systems - how many current players will actually engage with this? Will someone who engages in end-game actively go out of their way to level a new character just because this system change exists?

Covenants - sounds like a rep and currency based talent system - it will be heavily gated - will likely be front heavy and then fall off really quickly after the first few weeks into the expansion (saying all this based on what we saw from the blizzcon floor and what we heard from ion and the devs on the stage)

soulbindings - glorified bodyguards - not really a "system", it's a perk. Not much different from WOD bodyguards, except that these guys can get talent trees and will use powerful abilities like the Nazjatar ones. Looking at you Poen Gillbrack, I see you. This is not a thing to sell an expansion on, it's a minor "feature" that will be semi-relevant.

torghast - horrific visions 2.0 - I'm looking forward to this, but I am cautiously optimistic after what I've seen in horrific visions where the balance is off when running it as rdps/heal vs as a bursty melee or tank. Role-agnostic content should not force you to group up to be optimal. That's failed design. Inb4 you say people are 4-5 chesting it as ranged now - Yes, i know and they're either doing it on bursty classes like Hunters or with the aid of a crutch like Corrupted gear that you will NOT have in shadowlands. They also have not confirmed if soulbinding will be in effect in torghast or not, as that would change both features massively.

legendary crafting - again, not a "feature" to sell an expansion on, it's a gearing perk. You gather x items, you use x items to craft a piece of gear. The acquisition of X items is the real gameplay here, not the crafting itself. Literally takes 10-20 seconds to craft a legendary if legion is anything to go on. And legendaries are not a system to sell an expansion on either, they are expected to exist as pieces of gear in every WoW expansion.

Basically we as a community are grasping at straws to give blizzard some semblance of a chance to prove themselves. There really wasn't much in terms of gameplay systems presented at Blizzcon besides torghast. We already have M+ and Raiding as staples so obviously they do not need to be presented.

I'm really curious about what we're gonna get once shadowlands Beta is out. One thing we know is they don't have enough time to work the classes back into a fun state and add more gameplay systems before the game is due to release at the end of the year. So expect a second coming of Beta for Azeroth, but one that is more bearable because at least this time they're not presenting us with Islands and Warfronts, which they had no clue themselves about how it would work out in end-game and fun/engagement.

New levelling system is great for returning players, those who wish to level a new alt or people who enjoy levelling in general.

Covenants is also a system that seems intended to combine all the things people claim to like from Legion into one convenient package. Artifact levelling, Suramar story and Class hall diversity.

Just because Soulbinds doesnt look like the most prominent feature it is still something that improves upon systems we already have, and unless you honestly do not think small improvements over time is actually relevant then i cannot help you.

Torghast is Horrific visions combined with roguelikes and no time limit. Meaning that the main issue players have with playing Horrific visions, that of the time limit being unfair to tanks and healers is not really valid. There is also no reason to not think there will be tank only buffs you can find that increases DPS, or Healer specific buffs that give you allies. Even without that the idea of Torghast is to give players an infinite system that they can do in their off time without having to stress about time limits or having all the correct gear.

Legendary crafting is a prominent enough feature to bear noticing. In the same way that BfA azerite gear was. It will likely be an expansion wide system that will be a defining piece in high-end content like M+, raids and PvP.


I would consider that the people who go to the forums to complain about stuff we barely know are the ones grasping at straws. If you want ot complain about stuff then do it about things we actually know for a fact. Like complaining that Shadowlands is a boring location, or that Necrolords are too edgy. Not stuff that is impossible to tell, like saying that Shadowlands will be annoying to traverse becaused the zones are not linked, or that Necrolords are terrible because the one talent you saw implies you cannot choose it for minmaxing reasons.

Usually what the first Alpha releases contain is a whole boatload of assets and maybe half a zone, a whole one if we are lucky.

[Raisei]

Correct me if I'm wrong but your long winded argument seems to revolve around the fact that I and many other people cannot judge the product by the way it is advertised.

You my friend, have zero clue about how business works, because advertising is actually a huge deal, and if the ad is shitty, why someone without foam coming out of their mouths trying to defend blizzard's continued failures should bother buying the product?

So basically you agree that you know nothing and are so impressionable that instead of waiting to learn more of a product the ad already told you all you needed to know. That makes about as much sense as buying or not buying a shampoo based on what girl is washing her hair with it in the ad.

"Now that shampoo might be good for me, but they used a brunette to present it. They failed me and everyone else, may they rot in hell."

Surprisingly enough the purpose of advertising is not lost on me with my inferior intellect, however in my humble opinion only the most impressionable people let an ad decide for them if something is worth buying or not. Do you buy cars because of a cool spot? Guess you do, because making a test drive is just about the same as waiting for the Beta and hopping on the PTR and we know you don't need those empirical facts in your life.

You are not helping your argument by slinging one insult after the next at me btw. It just makes you look more and irrational.

Advertising serves the purpose of portraying the product in the best possible light, in case that is news to you. What they have shown was a raw, bland-ish product that doesnt have features we came to expect from every second expansion. All we got was promises of fixing things, which, if we look back, never really panned out. But even if they would, that's called patch, not expansion.

Thorghast is the only thing so far that is remotely interesting. But after cutting back on visual diversity, extreme time gating and rehashing content, do we really believe this feature can turn out well? I hope I am wrong though.

We also get 5 new areas, 10 new dungeons, the first of several raids, a combat overhaul, new abilities, a new idea for the story to unfold.... quite a lot for a patch if you ask me. But don't let me stop you, these details do not seem to count.
Otherwise it is your own fault that you expect a new class every two expansions, never was that stated as a goal of Blizzard, so do not blame them for your wrong expectations.

The rest of your post is just wishful thinking I would have indulged in myself, only thing is, I wasn't born yesterday. Your telling that steep subscription drop is only 'muh estimation' is particularly amusing.

Okay, go ahead. Show me the sub numbers then. I am waiting. Because if you have more then some coloured estimations I will be extremly surprised, considering no one else has them. However I am glad you find it amusing to see your argument dismantled.

You tell me I have no facts, and god dammit that is the only thing you've got right. The problem is, when you smell shit, you dont need to look for facts that it is indeed nearby. It's called taking an educated guess, something you seem to be struggling with.

You are again simply demanding that people believe you when you claim insight that no one else has and predict the future, while actually admitting you have nothing to base your claims on.

And to round it off you again resort to insults of my intelligence because I prefer to base my arguments on facts not guessing.

Which is why I completely agree that my opinion is coloured by wishful thinking. However I never stated that Shadowlands would be an unltimate success, because I have no facts to support such an argument. I simply stated that it is prudent to wait before making such a damning opinion about a product you know nothing about.

[deenman]

Hello! with all of the recent discourse surrounding the craven business practices that Blizz have adopted ie. thousands of players being unable to play the unfinished 8.3, the panning of BFA and WC3 etc.
Is it safe to say that Shadowlands can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory Blizz has found itself on, being the final nail in the coffin, the same way Fallout 76 confirmed the newfound cynicism toward Bethesda?

Shadowlands cant posibly be a fallout 76,fallout 76 is the bottom of the underworld of failure,8.3 had issues but they were fixed asap,bethesda even to this day has not fixed shit

[babyback]

Do you really need someone to define for you whats good? Im assuming thats a joke.

Please do. Because it’s a subjective term.

And yes, I still think wow and BfA is a good game.

[ONCHEhap]

come on now.
No matter how much you may or may not dislike Blizzard,they're nowhere near fucking up as much as Bethesda did with 76

[Adam Jensen]

Is it safe to say that BfA can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory that blizz has . . .
Is it safe to say that Legion can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory that blizz has . . .
Is it safe to say that Warlords of Draenor can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory that blizz has . . .
Is it safe to say that Mists of Pandaria can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory that blizz has . . .
Is it safe to say that Cataclysm can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory that blizz has . . .
Is it safe to say that Wrath of the Lich King can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory that blizz has . . .
Is it safe to say that The Burning Crusade can only continue the patently disastrous trajectory that blizz has . . .

Welcome to the last 15 years or so of griping on forums about future expansions no one's played yet . . .

[huth]

Or.. like demented paople you can just do the same thing over and over and over again without ever remembering or learning. You're not a demented person are you?

You mean all the complaining about everything?

Because that's about the only thing i see people doing over and over and over again.

[Zarvel]

New levelling system is great for returning players, those who wish to level a new alt or people who enjoy levelling in general.

Covenants is also a system that seems intended to combine all the things people claim to like from Legion into one convenient package. Artifact levelling, Suramar story and Class hall diversity.

Just because Soulbinds doesnt look like the most prominent feature it is still something that improves upon systems we already have, and unless you honestly do not think small improvements over time is actually relevant then i cannot help you.

Torghast is Horrific visions combined with roguelikes and no time limit. Meaning that the main issue players have with playing Horrific visions, that of the time limit being unfair to tanks and healers is not really valid. There is also no reason to not think there will be tank only buffs you can find that increases DPS, or Healer specific buffs that give you allies. Even without that the idea of Torghast is to give players an infinite system that they can do in their off time without having to stress about time limits or having all the correct gear.

Legendary crafting is a prominent enough feature to bear noticing. In the same way that BfA azerite gear was. It will likely be an expansion wide system that will be a defining piece in high-end content like M+, raids and PvP.


I would consider that the people who go to the forums to complain about stuff we barely know are the ones grasping at straws. If you want ot complain about stuff then do it about things we actually know for a fact. Like complaining that Shadowlands is a boring location, or that Necrolords are too edgy. Not stuff that is impossible to tell, like saying that Shadowlands will be annoying to traverse becaused the zones are not linked, or that Necrolords are terrible because the one talent you saw implies you cannot choose it for minmaxing reasons.

Usually what the first Alpha releases contain is a whole boatload of assets and maybe half a zone, a whole one if we are lucky.

Whoa, looks like you took that one personally. Although your "arguments" against my stated opinions are not convincing enough to budge me from my stance because of what I am accustomed to as someone who's working at one of the major publishers, that is EA. I've worked with designers and producers here long enough (5 years and counting) to know what can be sold as a system and what cannot, from a technical standpoint. My entire post was based on that. Unless you come along the same lines, it's not gonna change the way those systems should be looked at vs how players are actually looking at them because of what they've been dripfed by blizzard for sometime now, over a course of 7-8 years.

Also, the Alpha is never anything you should go by. It's irrelevant. Early Alpha access exists solely to hype the product up with the help of influencers. Shock, amirite?

When the Beta hits, that's when you'll know how the end product will turn out, almost to a T. That's how Alpha Beta cycles work in AAA companies like these. I know players think that Beta is still the time for a lot of feedback to go in and be actioned on, but by then the Alpha lock is already done, meaning the designers are already set in their ways and will only change the implementation slightly of whatever was Alpha locked. However, that is only if the cost for doing so is justified, otherwise they just leave it for later "updates" or "patches".

From a hype standpoint, Shadowlands just didn't have it at blizzcon. In fact, I remember feeling underwhelmed at what was presented after seeing the stuff on display for D4, OW2 etc. No matter how BFA turned out, at least there was some initial hype at blizzcon.

We don't know what kind of armor system we're gonna get. We don't know how gear acquisition outside M+ will work in shadowlands. We don't know what direction they're taking PvP in, given the Honor level system is now 2 expansions old. These are just a few examples of topics that need to be talked about or presented at an expansion reveal to hype people up for the day-to-day.

Heck, even for soulbinding, are you "hyped" about it? I remember being hyped for legion artifacts.

Shadowlands selling point has to be the deep end of it rather than the surface bits based on all this. They want the gameplay to hit the ground running this time and don't want another azerite armor fiasco, and that's the smart way to go.

I'm not complaining about the stuff blizzard's doing. I'm just providing some amount of criticism and explaining my view on things. People jump too soon to use the word "complain" or "QQ" on this site. Ya'll need to chill out and stop visualizing people on the other end of your monitor as a keyboard warrior. Some people just like breaking things down and looking at the finer details and having an enjoyable banter/debate.

[Sondrelk]

You mean all the complaining about everything?

Because that's about the only thing i see people doing over and over and over again.

The forums have kept complaining about WoW since ages ago. I keep a page favorited in case i need to remind myself. It is 12 years old from when WotLK had recently been announced, the thread is filled with almost nothing but complaints about how TBC ruined WoW, how Vanilla was awful anyways and how WotLK will be the final nail in the coffin. Quite a fun read.

[Kumorii]

I expected Fallout 76 from Bethesda. I don't expect that from Blizzard since nothing have come close to it.

[Sondrelk]

Whoa, looks like you took that one personally. Although your "arguments" against my stated opinions are not convincing enough to budge me from my stance because of what I am accustomed to as someone who's working at one of the major publishers, that is EA. I've worked with designers and producers here long enough (5 years and counting) to know what can be sold as a system and what cannot, from a technical standpoint. My entire post was based on that. Unless you come along the same lines, it's not gonna change the way those systems should be looked at vs how players are actually looking at them because of what they've been dripfed by blizzard for sometime now, over a course of 7-8 years.

Also, the Alpha is never anything you should go by. It's irrelevant. Early Alpha access exists solely to hype the product up with the help of influencers. Shock, amirite?

When the Beta hits, that's when you'll know how the end product will turn out, almost to a T. That's how Alpha Beta cycles work in AAA companies like these. I know players think that Beta is still the time for a lot of feedback to go in and be actioned on, but by then the Alpha lock is already done, meaning the designers are already set in their ways and will only change the implementation slightly of whatever was Alpha locked. However, that is only if the cost for doing so is justified, otherwise they just leave it for later "updates" or "patches".

From a hype standpoint, Shadowlands just didn't have it at blizzcon. In fact, I remember feeling underwhelmed at what was presented after seeing the stuff on display for D4, OW2 etc. No matter how BFA turned out, at least there was some initial hype at blizzcon.

We don't know what kind of armor system we're gonna get. We don't know how gear acquisition outside M+ will work in shadowlands. We don't know what direction they're taking PvP in, given the Honor level system is now 2 expansions old. These are just a few examples of topics that need to be talked about or presented at an expansion reveal to hype people up for the day-to-day.

Heck, even for soulbinding, are you "hyped" about it? I remember being hyped for legion artifacts.

Shadowlands selling point has to be the deep end of it rather than the surface bits based on all this. They want the gameplay to hit the ground running this time and don't want another azerite armor fiasco, and that's the smart way to go.

I'm not complaining about the stuff blizzard's doing. I'm just providing some amount of criticism and explaining my view on things. People jump too soon to use the word "complain" or "QQ" on this site. Ya'll need to chill out and stop visualizing people on the other end of your monitor as a keyboard warrior. Some people just like breaking things down and looking at the finer details and having an enjoyable banter/debate.

I know full well the Alpha is not something to base ones opinion on, which is why i am baffled htat so many base their opinions even without it.

No, i am not particularly excited for Soulbinds. Not because i think it will be awful, but because i do not know enough about it to really care yet. The only reason i was slightly more interested in Artifacts was because it had an appearance tied to it.

Also, why does Shadowlands really need a huge selling point anyways? If you look at the previous expansions usually considered awful like Cata, WoD or BfA they have all had massive new systems. While the ones that do well tend to be more reserved, and even then the cool new systems is usually the part of the expansion that garners the most criticism.
MoP had scenarios, which went the way of the Dodo when it turned out to be awful.
Legions artifacts were terrible until BfA when the forums arbitrarily decided it was great compared to Azerite armor.
If Blizzard wants to not take as many risks and instead focus on the core systems surely that is a valid selling point. When the Tesla came out the selling point wasnt it having a 5th weel for when you need to drive across sharp inclines, it was an improvement on the engine.

[Steelcryo]

Massive overhaul? Just how massive do you envision changing numbers from max = 110 to max = 50 to be? Or changing number of gained experience and quests proportionally to accommodate the ability to level 1-50 in any given expansion. Does that sound rocket-sciency enough for you to go "[U]MASSIVE[/U overhaul"?

Also I dont know why you bring up the invalid comparison between WoW and World Series, given that the latter's intrigue hinges on us knowing nothing about how it will turn out. WoW on the other hand must try to give out as much cool info as it can (which it failed to do).

So yes it is absurd, and I'm sorry Blizzard is getting away with it thanks to undemanding clients like some people.

Sweet Jesus, this just shows how clueless the average player is about game design. You really think changing down the max level is just max level = 50?

They have to change every number in the game. There is no "select all replace all" option. Each mob, zone, stat, quest, damage value, ability and more has to be changed. Then, because it's not as simple as "If mob = lvl do X damage", it's extremely formulaic, every change has to be tested to make sure the new values work and produce the expected results within the formula. It's a monumental task.

Think how many zones there are, think how many quests there are, think how mobs there are, how many abilities those mobs and our classes have. Then think of all the numbers you see in the game, let alone the 100x more you don't see and then put yourself in the position of having to change and check all of those. Does that seem like a simple and easy task to you?

If you think it is, you really have no idea what's involved.

OT: Personally I'm excited for SL, it looks interesting and the new zones look fun. People always expect brand new, super exciting features and mechanics every expansion. The issue is, we've had that just now in BfA and look how Warfronts and Islands turned out. Personally, I'm excited that SL doesn't have many new features and mechanics. Means more resources dedicated to making the things that we know work good and less time wasted developing new systems that may or may not pan out.

Not to mention, we're moving into a whole new section of lore. Which I get, some people might dislike, but for me I'm excited. There's no previous expectations around the lore that the devs have to stick to and live up to. They can go wild with the story. Sometimes from a writing perspective, it's far easier to create your own good story, than continue someone elses.

[deenman]

I expected Fallout 76 from Bethesda. I don't expect that from Blizzard since nothing have come close to it.

yeah but bfa is like a 6 out of 10,fallout 76 is a minus infinite out of 10

[Thelyron]

I love the BfA. If Shadowland will continue this trajectory, it would be awesome. Unfortunately I doubt about it, as WoW expansions are good-bad-good-bad (TBC good, WotLK bad, Cata good, Panda bad, Draenor good, Legion bad, BfA good, so SL must be bad).

Has been quite a while since i've seen taste this shit.

[Kumorii]

yeah but bfa is like a 6 out of 10,fallout 76 is a minus infinite out of 10

Confused, so we agree?